More Xs and Os talk, re Malzahn, via teh googles

[JR4AU]

http://smartfootball.com/spread/did-the-spread-really-evolve-from-the-single-wing

(There's some video and pics at the link)

Did the spread really evolve from the single-wing?
Tuesday, 22 June 2010 , by : Chris

Brian Cook thinks so, but I’m not so sure. The idea that the spread, or, even just Gus Malzahn’s offense in particular, “is a modern-day version of the single wing” is overdone. (To be fair, the Judy Battista’s NY Times piece focuses on the wildcat, which I do think has a great deal in common with the single-wing.)

But Cook’s point is broader and, I think, flawed. He gives several reasons why Malzahn’s O in particular is like the single-wing, saying the single-wing incorporates many possible different ball carriers that head in different directions. uses misdirection as the primary way to acquire big plays. It’s not “keeping the defense honest” so you can run your bread and butter without the opponent cheating, it’s an attempt make the defense confused on every play. often features a primary ball handler who spins wildly to set up playfakes heading in opposite directions. depends on sowing confusion and can be vulnerable to teams that are well-drilled at stopping it. These reasons assuredly apply to Malzahn’s offense, but do they apply to the single-wing? Not really, or at least they aren’t its foundation. The single wing was primarily (though not always, of course) about using overwhelming force to one side of a formation. So the spread’s major similarity to the single-wing is mostly relegated to the shotgun and the fact that the quarterback is not an irrelevant handoff man, but instead has an active role in the run game. (H/t for the image FootballBabble.)

And the rest of Brian’s points don’t seem to apply. The single-wing was not a big play offense (have you seen the scores from back then?), instead relying on steady gains from its power runs. Indeed, most plays resembled rugby scrums, which made sense given football’s original roots. Some single-wing teams used a lot of ballcarriers — and I guess everything uses “a lot of ballcarriers” if the comparison is a Woody/Bo I-formation offense where one guy gets 35 carries a game — but it wasn’t a major feature. Playfaking was important but no more so than in other offenses, and certainly not as much as it is to offenses like the Wing-T. (And I don’t know about  the single-wing being known for fakes involving “spinning wildly,” though various forms of the “spin” offense were invented decades later). And, although defensive discipline is helpful against any offense, the cornerstone of the single wing was the “student body right” type play behind the unbalanced line and blocking backs to the “single wing” side. There’s no misdirection to be snuffed out by a disciplined defense there; it’s called bowl your opponent over to get four yards. Below is video of an older school single-wing; I think it’s evident that it’s a little more straightforward than Brian’s four points would imply.

The upshot is that yes, the single-wing was a shotgun formation, yes it used some misdirection (all offenses do), and yes it’s old, but that doesn’t make it the sole inspiration for today’s spread or even Malzahn’s offense. Modern fans, including Brian, have understandably mapped their understanding of the offenses they see on a weekly basis onto the past and see a direct correlation, but it’s not quite that straightforward. Certainly, the coaches who developed today’s modern offenses, like Rodriguez and Malzahn, did not spend their time meticulously studying the single-wing tapes of yesteryear. Instead, if there are similarities it’s because those coaches stumbled onto the same ideas through trial and error.

So where did the spread come from? The basic answer is simple, though to catalogue all the influences would go on for days: the spread is a synthesis of most of the great ideas that came before it. It owes some principles to the single-wing, but it also owes its debts to the double-wing, a few Wing-T principles, the veer option squads, the run and shoot, and modern pro-style passing attacks. This makes sense, given that defenses, once they have countered something, do not forget, though at the same time an offense’s effectiveness is often contingent on how experienced the opponent’s coaches and players are to facing it. The “spread,” which is an overbroad term anyway, puts a new twist on a lot of what came before it.

But to say it is confined to being the “modern day version” of any one of those past offenses ignores too much football history to be a plausible interpretation. Like much football commentary, the analysis isn’t wrong, it’s just incomplete.

[GH2001]

JR - I'm going to ask you: Man crush on Gus for you? Its ok if you do. I have seen worse.

[JR4AU]

JR - I'm going to ask you: Man crush on Gus for you? Its ok if you do. I have seen worse.

I like the fact that he's the OC de jour.  I like that Auburn has him, and he's the guy that so many coaches around the country are trying to find out more about.   I choose to post these things here to make them relevant to Auburn football, but I read Smart Football and other blogs daily, and read about all sorts of things.  But yeah, I like Gus. 

[GH2001]

I like the fact that he's the OC de jour.  I like that Auburn has him, and he's the guy that so many coaches around the country are trying to find out more about.   I choose to post these things here to make them relevant to Auburn football, but I read Smart Football and other blogs daily, and read about all sorts of things.  But yeah, I like Gus. 

Messing with you...but you know that.

When/If you are done with his book, I'd like to read it.

[JR4AU]

Messing with you...but you know that.

When/If you are done with his book, I'd like to read it.

Yeah, I knew that. 

I'll be glad to let you borrow it, but it's not a compelling read.  It's primarily designed to help with installation of the hurry up no huddle, and how to set up your sideline communication.  There's very little to do with Xs and Os in it.  In fact it only diagrams 4 base run plays, and 4 base pass plays that you can find anywhere in any offense, and I think 3 or 4 formations. 

[No Huddle]

Yeah, I knew that. 

I'll be glad to let you borrow it, but it's not a compelling read.  It's primarily designed to help with installation of the hurry up no huddle, and how to set up your sideline communication.  There's very little to do with Xs and Os in it.  In fact it only diagrams 4 base run plays, and 4 base pass plays that you can find anywhere in any offense, and I think 3 or 4 formations. 

If you want to talk about installation of the no huddle look no further than I no huddle. I helped build one from the ground up. If you have any questions shot. I understand you are talking about the book but just in case you had one.

[JR4AU]

If you want to talk about installation of the no huddle look no further than I no huddle. I helped build one from the ground up. If you have any questions shot. I understand you are talking about the book but just in case you had one.

How young do you think can handle it?  Thinking on trying it with my 11-12 yo team this fall.  Max of about 12-13 plays. 

[AWK]

If you want to talk about installation of the no huddle look no further than I no huddle. I helped build one from the ground up. If you have any questions shot. I understand you are talking about the book but just in case you had one.

Question on question crime is horrible.

[No Huddle]

How young do you think can handle it?  Thinking on trying it with my 11-12 yo team this fall.  Max of about 12-13 plays. 

I think they could handle it but what you will have to worry about is how will the QB tell the team the play. We had plays that fell in a group. Like our quick passing game was the jet series and the QB would call out anything that would fly and the routes. So he would say helicopter 9 which would be the same as jet 9. Sounds different but were in fact the same play. If you use this use a group with lots of items like movies, college football, MLB baseball or money. We also used blue for left and brown for right. So instead of calling 28 toss sweep or 29 toss sweep you could call Nike (running play so you could use a shoe reference) blue or nike 9 something like that. Also if you run a play action out of that shoe call socks could be the play action call.

[JR4AU]

I think they could handle it but what you will have to worry about is how will the QB tell the team the play. We had plays that fell in a group. Like our quick passing game was the jet series and the QB would call out anything that would fly and the routes. So he would say helicopter 9 which would be the same as jet 9. Sounds different but were in fact the same play. If you use this use a group with lots of items like movies, college football, MLB baseball or money. We also used blue for left and brown for right. So instead of calling 28 toss sweep or 29 toss sweep you could call Nike (running play so you could use a shoe reference) blue or nike 9 something like that. Also if you run a play action out of that shoe call socks could be the play action call.

Simple effective communication is the key, and I've seen and heard of similar stuff.  I'm fairly new to the coaching scene, and not sure if trying it now might not be biting off more than I can chew, but am studying up on it, and may try it in small doses in the fall.   

[No Huddle]

Simple effective communication is the key, and I've seen and heard of similar stuff.  I'm fairly new to the coaching scene, and not sure if trying it now might not be biting off more than I can chew, but am studying up on it, and may try it in small doses in the fall.   

You have the right idea. Start small and see how they react. Use it everyday, during drills, warm-ups, running plays the whole time. When you are calling the play face to face use the signals. The more they see it the better they will be. You could show them two or three plays a week. Then try it out in a scrimmage or game situation at practice. One huge bit of advice be organized with practice. Try to make sure everyone is doing something all the time. The more they stand around and listen to you the less they get done. When you coach'em up keep it to 30 seconds or less. JMTC good luck.

[JR4AU]

You have the right idea. Start small and see how they react. Use it everyday, during drills, warm-ups, running plays the whole time. When you are calling the play face to face use the signals. The more they see it the better they will be. You could show them two or three plays a week. Then try it out in a scrimmage or game situation at practice. One huge bit of advice be organized with practice. Try to make sure everyone is doing something all the time. The more they stand around and listen to you the less they get done. When you coach'em up keep it to 30 seconds or less. JMTC good luck.

Thanks...good stuff. 

[Saniflush]

Simple effective communication is the key, and I've seen and heard of similar stuff. 

This is the same principle in manufacturing that I try to follow. 

Comes under lean manufacturing.  Sometime called the Toyota way.

The principles really go back to Henry Ford and were expanded more by this John Boyd.  I highly recomend this book on him.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0316881465/ref=oss_product

[JR4AU]

This is the same principle in manufacturing that I try to follow. 

Comes under lean manufacturing.  Sometime called the Toyota way.

The principles really go back to Henry Ford and were expanded more by this John Boyd.  I highly recomend this book on him.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0316881465/ref=oss_product

NH can chime in here, but the key to offense is making sure your offensive line knows what to do, and is capable of executing it.  You can draw up schemes until the cows come home, if the hawgs can't block it, it won't work.  And since you're not always dealing with rocket surgeons on the football field...simple is usually the key when implimenting and communicating schemes. 

[Saniflush]

NH can chime in here, but the key to offense is making sure your offensive line knows what to do, and is capable of executing it.  You can draw up schemes until the cows come home, if the hawgs can't block it, it won't work.  And since you're not always dealing with rocket surgeons on the football field...simple is usually the key when implimenting and communicating schemes. 

The K.I.S.S. principle.....
Keep It Simple Stupid

[boartitz]

The K.I.S.S. principle.....
Keep It Simple Stupid

Use your strenghts.

[No Huddle]

NH can chime in here, but the key to offense is making sure your offensive line knows what to do, and is capable of executing it.  You can draw up schemes until the cows come home, if the hawgs can't block it, it won't work.  And since you're not always dealing with rocket surgeons on the football field...simple is usually the key when implimenting and communicating schemes.  

Like the other guys said KISS and you are right. The big boys need to know what to do. Your skill guys can mess up and the play will gain yards let the a d-lineman or an LB go unblocked and bang fumble. Coaching the o-line at that age is tough. We used to use rules for the linemen. I like some of these rules.  

http://www.infosports.com/football/arch/2841.htm

[No Huddle]

NH can chime in here, but the key to offense is making sure your offensive line knows what to do, and is capable of executing it.  You can draw up schemes until the cows come home, if the hawgs can't block it, it won't work.  And since you're not always dealing with rocket surgeons on the football field...simple is usually the key when implimenting and communicating schemes. 

KISS is the way to go. If you linemen are lost so is your play. I like the rule OIL. On (linemen), inside and LB. I had another website but it showed up as spam so google linemen blocking rules and the first site ie really useful.

[JR4AU]

KISS is the way to go. If you linemen are lost so is your play. I like the rule OIL. On (linemen), inside and LB. I had another website but it showed up as spam so google linemen blocking rules and the first site ie really useful.

Yep, seen that, and applied it some.  GOOD, GOD, FBI, Gap-Down-Backer, etc.  Whatever you use, you have to give them rules, and they have to be able to come to the LOS, remember them and apply them.  The biggest thing at the level I coach is when the bullets start flying, they completely get befuddled, and they stand up like gophers and look around.  I try to coach my kids that it's better to block the wrong guy full speed, than to block nobody at all.  I'm told from coaches at all levels that this is a persistent problem when it's for real in a game. 

[No Huddle]

Yep, seen that, and applied it some.  GOOD, GOD, FBI, Gap-Down-Backer, etc.  Whatever you use, you have to give them rules, and they have to be able to come to the LOS, remember them and apply them.  The biggest thing at the level I coach is when the bullets start flying, they completely get befuddled, and they stand up like gophers and look around.  I try to coach my kids that it's better to block the wrong guy full speed, than to block nobody at all.  I'm told from coaches at all levels that this is a persistent problem when it's for real in a game. 

I like it even if it is the wrong guy block him full speed. You could practice the blocking rules like pass skel. The more they rep the less likely they are to act, as you so perfectly described, as gophers.