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Man Up - Repealing "Don't Ask Don't Tell "

GarMan

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Re: Man Up - Repealing "Don't Ask Don't Tell "
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2010, 01:53:34 PM »
So you are saying that it would freak you out if the guy in the shower next to you gets a hard on?  Maybe he is thinking about his girl and what he would like to do to her.  How arrogant to think it is all about you.  Accommodating the differences in gender is one thing.  But to say that gays can't be in the military because one of them might find a fellow soldier to be attractive is ridiculous. 
You continue to miss the point.  It's just unacceptable as it puts both parties in situations that would not ordinarily occur.  I'd rather people like you not conduct social experiments in human sexuality and related psychology with our military.  Talk about arrogance?  Really???  Let's see you advocate unisex showers in high-schools.  If you really believe what you typed, then you shouldn't have a problem with it.  Come on!  There are reasons why we wouldn't advocate such things.  Talk about ridiculous... 

If he acts on that impulse, then that is against several rules that are already in place regarding fraternization, and he gets punished.  End of discussion. 
Oh yeah...  There's NEVER any hanky-panky between the male and female soldiers today.  As you say, there are rules!  Well, there were also a lot of pregnancies in the military last year...  Just FYI...  "End of discussion..."

I could turn the "trash the car because the lighter doesn't work" analogy back around on you.  You are going to refuse to accept the skills of a highly trained, highly talented individual just because his sexual proclivities are different from yours?  If you can be trained to supress your sexual impulses in combat or in close quarters, so can he.
I didn't know they teach sexual impulse suppression in the military.  Where did you come up with that?  Oh...  Maybe, we can teach that to individuals with some of those other sexual proclivities and see what happens.  They can teach your kids! 

Right now, you have the self control (I assume) to be faithful to a wife or significant other and not hump every chick you see.  Just because a man is gay does not mean the only thing on his mind is to hump every ass he sees. Why is he less likely to be a professional military man than a straight guy?That just does not hold water. 
Doesn't hold water?  Well, I'm not tempted by having to shower with a bunch of females everyday.  And, I wouldn't want to be in that situation.  Don't you understand that?  You're not being reasonable here...  And, you defintely don't understand male sexuality. 

Relating homosexuality to pedophilia and beastiality.  Right.   :blink:  That is not a slap in the face of being PC – that is a slap in the face of common sense and rationality.  Sex between two consenting adults of ANY gender is a far cry from sex with children and sex with animals.  You just lost credibility with that comment.  You and I typically see eye to eye, but I am just not that narrow minded. 
Wow...  So judgmental...  This is why I don't want people like you conducting experiments in the military.  You don't see the difference because you're too focused on the results of the potential follow-through actions, and as such, you discredit any rational thought around this discussion.  Human sexuality is far more complex than you seem to realize, and under it's influence, you don't always consider the consequences of your actions.  Those same genes that are "responsible" for determining sexuality may just as well be responsible for other sexual predispositions.  I'd rather not conduct a science experiment with our military to prove that.

The credibility jabs are great...  Narrow-minded, arrogance...  I feel like I'm in a debate with Nancy Pelosi. 
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My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them.  - Winston Churchill

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GarMan

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Re: Man Up - Repealing "Don't Ask Don't Tell "
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2010, 02:23:38 PM »
You disagree with it.  Fine.  But that is still just an opinion. I can think of a lot of things I would consider deviant behavior, but unless an innocent is harmed by such behavior, I am not going to get all high and mighty about it.  I say it is genetic for most men, while possibly a choice for some women, but in either situation, I am not judging, and I am not about to insist that anything that "deviates" from my personal practices be persecuted and "cured". 
First of all, you've been judging throughout this entire thread.  Who do you think you're fooling?  And, you are "insisting that [certain things] that 'deviates' from [your] personal practices be persecuted and 'cured'" simply by your reaction to pedophia and other sexual practices.  You're ignoring the sexuality aspect of it by only concerning yourself with the predatory practices and associated after-affects.  Human sexuality is still involved regardless of any potential victims.  The physical and psychological drivers are still there. 
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My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them.  - Winston Churchill

Eating and sleeping are the only activities that should be allowed to interrupt a man's enjoyment of his cigar.  - Mark Twain

Nothing says "Obey Me" like a bloody head on a fence post!  - Stewie Griffin

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."  - Ayn Rand

Tiger Wench

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Re: Man Up - Repealing "Don't Ask Don't Tell "
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2010, 05:18:49 PM »
Oh PLEASE.  I am no more liberal or Nancy Pelosi than either of you guys.  But the knee jerk "It's a sin!" "Cure the deviance!" and "You aren't a man!" reactions are weak.  It's all in your manly men heads, bald or not and obviously just an insecure guy thing.  Gay soldiers are there now, doing their jobs, doing them well, earning respect, taking care of business.  But let one of them get caught doing something on their own time, and their career should be over?  What a waste!!  How has that person's ability to do their job changed one iota just because someone found out they were gay?  What if they didn't even get caught having sex - what if they just come out and admit it?  You cannot tell me that the best sniper in your unit instantly stops being the best sniper in your unit just because you find out that he prefers men to women.  You cannot tell me that if your life was on the line, you would rather have a straight guy with lesser skills than the absolute best guy that happens to be gay.  That is not a liberal point of view - that is a "best man for the job, period" point of view.  Letting your personal prejudices force you into settling for second best IS shallow and narrow minded.

Yes, there are uniformed men and women having sex every day.  In certain circumstances, if that sexual relationship interferes with the performance of their duties (officer-enlisted, chain of command, adultery, etc.) then, yes, there are punishments.  Why should it matter whether or not the sex was gay or straight?  Interfere with duties = punishment.  Personal time, no conflict = okay.  At least gay sex won't result in pregnancies.   :poke:

Don’t try to equate a high school of children with the military.  If they are mature enough to wer a uniform, they are mature enough to be held to a higher standard – and they ARE.  When I say “trained to resist sexual impulses”, I meant that if you are stuck out on deployment in the desert for 6 weeks with no access to women, you get over it.  You don’t up and die, or start raping every villager you come across.  You find ways to either ignore it or supress it.  There is no class on “How to control yourself” other than the entire training process of “For the good of the unit”. 

Blacks in the military did not bring the world to an end.  Women in the military did not bring the world to an end.  Gays openly serving in the military will not bring the world to an end.

I may not be male and I was never in the military but Sani was.  Read his comment - that he does not give a rat's behind what a guy prefers long as he is a damn fine shot. 
 
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Re: Man Up - Repealing "Don't Ask Don't Tell "
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2010, 05:22:50 PM »
K, you can disagree all you want.  But it is still an opinion, and not the absolute righteous be all end all.

The queer extremists have about as much in common with mainstream gay people as feminazis have with me, which is to say, very little other than the whole boobs and vagina thing.  Using rabid extremists as an example again detracts from your argument.  You cannot judge an entire class by their extreme members.  Are all Republicans right wing neo-Nazi gun nuts?  Are all Democrats tree hugging Socialists?  (ok, well... maybe not the last one...)  Not all gays dress in drag and parade around demanding acceptance of their extreme lifestyle. 
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Re: Man Up - Repealing "Don't Ask Don't Tell "
« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2010, 05:54:45 PM »
Make'em all a number. Men and women and have them eat, sleep, and fight together. Otherwise, keep it the way it is. The blacks in the military is a bullshit comparison. Blacks are born black, gays are not. You can try and argue it, but I can see the black dude, he cannot change it. It is fact, he is black. Gayness cannot equate to black. So the point is invalid.
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Five statements of WISDOM
1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity, by legislating the wealth out of prosperity.
2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.
3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.
4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.
5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friends, is the beginning of the end of any nation.

Re: Man Up - Repealing "Don't Ask Don't Tell "
« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2010, 06:01:17 PM »
How about this -

I have known in my life many homosexuals.  Much more so now than ever due to a big breakout of homosexual activity at the school I teach at.  

Not one time have I ever known, met, or heard about a person being a homosexual without some sort of traumatic experience (albeit psychological or physical) as a younger person.  

I'm sorry.  I had one girl who was a "lesbian" her freshman year.  She was perfectly normal with good parents.  Her best friend became a lesbian, so she decided she wanted to be a lesbian too.  They did lesbian things.  I'm sure they were doing the scissor.  

After a year?  Girl decided she really wasn't a lesbian.  She wanted a boyfriend, and she thought it was disgusting that she was fooling around with a girl.  

But it was too late.  Her reputation was ruined.  She quit coming to school on a regular basis.  She failed the hell out of my class.  Her parents scheduled a meeting, and whaddyaknow, girl is still going to intense therapy sessions.  She "chose" to like girls and it fucked her up.  

Here are three other homosexuals I teach:

Boy #1 - Foster parents.  Special Ed.  Biological father and brother molested him when he was 5 and 6 years old.  Mom knew about it but was scared to say anything.  Committed suicide after telling her sister.

Boy #2 - Emotionally disturbed is what his calling card reads.  Father left before he was born.  He and his mother lived in a car for two years, which I know because she makes damn sure during her monthly conference that we all know about it.  

Girl #1 - Mom and mom are homosexuals.  Biological mom hates men.  Despises them.  Said she wants to find an all girl school - all girl kids and teachers.  I'm sure the daughter learned a thing or two about how to feel about men growing up in a home that was all about feminism and everything about despising men.  

Those are three examples where it's not a choice or a genetic code but rather a psychological influence.  It's no different than a kid being overly violent due to growing up in a home full of violence.  

So when homosexuality is considered a "choice," I can't say I agree with allowing it to be acceptable behavior.  More often than not in my experience, it's a tell-tale sign that particular individual has experienced something in the past to enable the unwanted behavior.  

If it is a genetic issue, then there is NO reason why people shouldn't be attempting to cure it.  Homosexuality is illogical as it inhibits reproduction and is generally considered uncivilized in most societies.  Why would you want to be a homosexual?  Besides attempting to separate yourself from society, which if you ask me, is a psychological condition in itself.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2010, 06:04:01 PM by Townhallsavoy »
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Kaos

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Re: Man Up - Repealing "Don't Ask Don't Tell "
« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2010, 06:20:17 PM »
K, you can disagree all you want.  But it is still an opinion, and not the absolute righteous be all end all.


Whoa, let's rewind.  Who tossed around words like "narrow minded"?  Wasn't me.  I'm hardly the one standing on the pedestal of the righteous and the be all end all in this discussion.  You're so far up there with your attitude toward it, most of us can only see the base of your pedestal and can't tell whether you're wearing a skirt or not, which spoils the whole purpose.

The queer extremists have about as much in common with mainstream gay people as feminazis have with me, which is to say, very little other than the whole boobs and vagina thing.  Using rabid extremists as an example again detracts from your argument.  You cannot judge an entire class by their extreme members.  Are all Republicans right wing neo-Nazi gun nuts?  Are all Democrats tree hugging Socialists?  (ok, well... maybe not the last one...)  Not all gays dress in drag and parade around demanding acceptance of their extreme lifestyle. 

No, but enough do that it's become a major political and societal issue.  Those who do are constantly in the faces of people demanding equal protection under the law.   

And you never answered the question. 

Is it genetic and can therefore be cured so that the deviation no longer exists? 

Or

Is it a preference and therefore has no rights under any law pertaining to discrimination? 

Because if it's a genetic flaw, then we need to be working on a cure.  If it's a preference, they need to keep that shit to themselves and in their own homes.  End.
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Kaos

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Re: Man Up - Repealing "Don't Ask Don't Tell "
« Reply #27 on: February 04, 2010, 06:26:34 PM »
Oh PLEASE.  I am no more liberal or Nancy Pelosi than either of you guys.  But the knee jerk "It's a sin!" "Cure the deviance!" and "You aren't a man!" reactions are weak.  Point A: It's all in your manly men heads, bald or not and obviously just an insecure guy thing.  Gay soldiers are there now, doing their jobs, doing them well, earning respect, taking care of business.  But let one of them get caught doing something on their own time, and their career should be over?  What a waste!!  How has that person's ability to do their job changed one iota just because someone found out they were gay?  What if they didn't even get caught having sex - what if they just come out and admit it?  You cannot tell me that the best sniper in your unit instantly stops being the best sniper in your unit just because you find out that he prefers men to women.  You cannot tell me that if your life was on the line, you would rather have a straight guy with lesser skills than the absolute best guy that happens to be gay.  That is not a liberal point of view - that is a "best man for the job, period" point of view.  Point B: Letting your personal prejudices force you into settling for second best IS shallow and narrow minded.

Yes, there are uniformed men and women having sex every day.  In certain circumstances, if that sexual relationship interferes with the performance of their duties (officer-enlisted, chain of command, adultery, etc.) then, yes, there are punishments.  Why should it matter whether or not the sex was gay or straight?  Interfere with duties = punishment.  Personal time, no conflict = okay.  At least gay sex won't result in pregnancies.   :poke:

Don’t try to equate a high school of children with the military.  If they are mature enough to wer a uniform, they are mature enough to be held to a higher standard – and they ARE.  When I say “trained to resist sexual impulses”, I meant that if you are stuck out on deployment in the desert for 6 weeks with no access to women, you get over it.  You don’t up and die, or start raping every villager you come across.  You find ways to either ignore it or supress it.  There is no class on “How to control yourself” other than the entire training process of “For the good of the unit”. 

Blacks in the military did not bring the world to an end.  Women in the military did not bring the world to an end.  Gays openly serving in the military will not bring the world to an end.

I may not be male and I was never in the military but Sani was.  Read his comment - that he does not give a rat's behind what a guy prefers long as he is a damn fine shot. 
 

A: Asinine and insulting.  I oppose homosexuality for religious and moral reasons.  For anyone to dismiss my views as "manly insecurity" shows a tremendous shallowness.  I'm sorry you have a gay friend.  I can't help you there. But having a gay friend doesn't make you "enlightened."  It only makes you desensitized and incapable of forming detached objective arguments.

B: Not personal prejudices.

The remainder of your commentary is -- and you know I respect you -- uninformed, irrational babble.
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Vandy Vol

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Re: Man Up - Repealing "Don't Ask Don't Tell "
« Reply #28 on: February 04, 2010, 06:34:42 PM »
I have known in my life many homosexuals.  Much more so now than ever due to a big breakout of homosexual activity at the school I teach at  being a member of TigersX.

FTFY
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GarMan

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Re: Man Up - Repealing "Don't Ask Don't Tell "
« Reply #29 on: February 04, 2010, 06:37:46 PM »
OK...  You baited me again...  Ms. Pelosi... 

Oh PLEASE.  I am no more liberal or Nancy Pelosi than either of you guys.  But the knee jerk "It's a sin!" "Cure the deviance!" and "You aren't a man!" reactions are weak.  It's all in your manly men heads, bald or not and obviously just an insecure guy thing.  Gay soldiers are there now, doing their jobs, doing them well, earning respect, taking care of business.  But let one of them get caught doing something on their own time, and their career should be over?  What a waste!!  How has that person's ability to do their job changed one iota just because someone found out they were gay?  What if they didn't even get caught having sex - what if they just come out and admit it?  You cannot tell me that the best sniper in your unit instantly stops being the best sniper in your unit just because you find out that he prefers men to women.  You cannot tell me that if your life was on the line, you would rather have a straight guy with lesser skills than the absolute best guy that happens to be gay.  That is not a liberal point of view - that is a "best man for the job, period" point of view.  Letting your personal prejudices force you into settling for second best IS shallow and narrow minded. 
Wrong again...  I don't consider this to be "personal prejudice".  It's common sense.  Just as you wouldn't mix men and women in close quarters for overwhelmingly obvious reasons...  I have no doubts that these individuals can perform well in the military, but I'm willing to bet there are all sorts of other deviants who can perform well in the military who would not qualify to enlist as well.  I'm just arguing against social experimentation with our military.  It's disruptive and unnecessary, especially this whole DADT issue.   

Yes, there are uniformed men and women having sex every day.  In certain circumstances, if that sexual relationship interferes with the performance of their duties (officer-enlisted, chain of command, adultery, etc.) then, yes, there are punishments.  Why should it matter whether or not the sex was gay or straight?  Interfere with duties = punishment.  Personal time, no conflict = okay.  At least gay sex won't result in pregnancies.   :poke:
Golly...  That makes a lot of sense...   :taunt: 

Don’t try to equate a high school of children with the military.  If they are mature enough to wer a uniform, they are mature enough to be held to a higher standard – and they ARE.  When I say “trained to resist sexual impulses”, I meant that if you are stuck out on deployment in the desert for 6 weeks with no access to women, you get over it.  You don’t up and die, or start raping every villager you come across.  You find ways to either ignore it or supress it.  There is no class on “How to control yourself” other than the entire training process of “For the good of the unit”. 
I don't buy it.  Sorry...  You're making an incredible leap here, and the assumptions behind your assertion are infinite.  Do you really believe that 17-18 year old enlistees are that much more mature than high school students?  That's crazy. 

Blacks in the military did not bring the world to an end.  Women in the military did not bring the world to an end. 
I agree to an extent.  Initially, both groups had to be segregated, and the genders are still segregated.  Even with the segregation of the genders, there are a lot of social issues that had to be addressed and still require significant attention. 

Gays openly serving in the military will not bring the world to an end. 
Of course not...  But, how do you do it without resulting in disruptive issues?  If I understand the rest of your posts, you'll just mix the homosexuals with the heterosexuals.  You seem so willing to put other people into uncomfortable and potentially disruptive situations...  How would you feel if your employer made all of your company restrooms unisex?  What if you were forced to take showers with men or bull-dykes who ogled you as you bathed?  Be honest...  Seriously...  Who are you to force others into that situation?  Why would you force others into that situation? 

I may not be male and I was never in the military but Sani was.  Read his comment - that he does not give a rat's behind what a guy prefers long as he is a damn fine shot. 
Well, one man doesn’t speak for all of us.  As much as I appreciate his opinion, I have to respectfully disagree.  I’m sure that he would have found it to be a bit uncomfortable to be forced to shower with a flaming brigade of fudge-packers every day. 
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My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them.  - Winston Churchill

Eating and sleeping are the only activities that should be allowed to interrupt a man's enjoyment of his cigar.  - Mark Twain

Nothing says "Obey Me" like a bloody head on a fence post!  - Stewie Griffin

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."  - Ayn Rand

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Re: Man Up - Repealing "Don't Ask Don't Tell "
« Reply #30 on: February 04, 2010, 06:40:46 PM »
Who gives a flying shit if someone is gay?  How does this in any way affect your life? 

It doesn't, they aren't bothering you. It's not like they are forcing you to fuck a guy/woman...or fucking a guy or woman in your living room while you are watching TV...or touching penises together over your bowl of cereal.

Unless the noted things above have happened to you, then you have no reason to dislike them or hate them.  Unless...
« Last Edit: February 04, 2010, 06:41:44 PM by AWK »
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Re: Man Up - Repealing "Don't Ask Don't Tell "
« Reply #31 on: February 04, 2010, 06:56:40 PM »
Who gives a flying shit if someone is gay?  How does this in any way affect your life? 

It doesn't, they aren't bothering you. It's not like they are forcing you to fuck a guy/woman...or fucking a guy or woman in your living room while you are watching TV...or touching penises together over your bowl of cereal.

Unless the noted things above have happened to you, then you have no reason to dislike them or hate them.  Unless...

Wrong, Awk. 

Nobody hates them.  I just don't want to hear about it.  Choosing to be gay should not give you preferential treatment anywhere, and when you make that choice (as with any choice) you should be prepared to suffer the consequences for it.  Unless it's genetic and then we should be searching for the cure. 

But they ARE bothering me by parading their perversion across my television screen and trying to insist that their lifestyle choice is an acceptable one and a legitimate alternative to traditional marriage. 

If they chose to keep their deviation private, I doubt anyone would care.  It's the strident calls for recognition and the demand for acceptance that is a violation of my rights. 

I don't accept it.  It's a deviant behavior no different from child molestation or fucking a corpse. 

Am I a hypocrite because watching two attractive women pleasure each other is enticing to me?  Abso-fucking-lutley.  But that's MY sin and I don't demand that anyone accept it.  It's my individual burden.  Do I regret it?  Usually. 
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Re: Man Up - Repealing "Don't Ask Don't Tell "
« Reply #32 on: February 04, 2010, 07:27:15 PM »
Quote
Is it genetic and can therefore be cured so that the deviation no longer exists?
 

You can't just say "Cure being gay because it is genetic or stop making that choice."  Green eyes are genetic.  Black hair is genetic.  Should those be "cured" because they are not the same as everyone else?  Not all genetic conditions should be cured, and not all of them CAN be cured.  That is a bizarre argument.  Who gets to decide what genetic conditions should be cured?  Maybe some are choices – but straight people make all kinds of choices every day too.

Pull all the extreme examples you want, but for every "abused physically/mentally/ made him/her gay" example you have, I can mention a gay person I know who has been that way all their lives.  I have more than one gay friend, male and female, mainly because as mentioned, I could care LESS what they do behind closed doors.  I have straight friends with more kink.  I have straight friends with more mental issues.  So I just don't buy that "all gays are fucked in the head and/or a genetic mistake" thing.

I am not going to refute line by line the way you and GarMan are - mainly because this is just a line in the sand kind of argument that had gone off track into “Bash Jen and call her a liberal because she is just a chick who has no clue about manliness or testosterone or comraderie”.  Although, you must have missed my earlier post, GarMan – I went to an ALL WOMEN’S COLLEGE – I DID shower with bull dyke lesbians.  And no one ever touched me or even gave me a second glance – me nor any of my dorm mates either. 

You won't change my mind that I want nothing but the best in our military and I don't give a flying crap what kind of sex they prefer.  I won't change your minds that gay people in our military is giving into to PC and giving support to a totally unacceptable behavior.  I did not start this thread to discuss gay rights, or the nature/nurture argument.  I wanted to discuss why it was such a big deal that DADT was being repealed.  Many – not all, but many - active duty and retired military personnel I have asked about this - including some of your fellow Xers - have the exact same opinion – as long as a guy serves honorably, and does his job when he needs to, what he (or she) does in private is no one’s business.  That is still my position.
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Vandy Vol

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Re: Man Up - Repealing "Don't Ask Don't Tell "
« Reply #33 on: February 04, 2010, 07:55:56 PM »
This post probably responds to a lot of different points made, but I'm too lazy to quote them.  Instead, I'll just partition the post into specific topics.

GENETIC DEFECT

A team at the University of Copenhagen has tracked down a genetic mutation which took place 6-10,000 years ago and is the cause of the eye color of all blue-eyed humans alive on the planet today.  Originally, all humans had brown eyes.  A genetic mutation which strays from the genetic norm is referred to as a defect.  All defects don't need to be cured.  Afterall, people aren't marching around demanding that we find a way to "cure" blue-eyed people (in fact, Hitler did just the opposite).

If one believes that homosexuality is immoral or otherwise subjectively unacceptable to them, then I can't sway them of their opinion.  Nor would I want to, because as with most subjective points of view, there is no way that I can prove to them that they are right or wrong.

However, to state that homosexuality is a genetic defect and thus should be cured is attempting to apply objectivity to a subjective argument.  It's attempting to state that defects are scientifically proven to be "wrong" and need to be cured.  As seen with blue-eyed people, we know that this isn't true.  Thus, one can appeal to their subjective moral code for their reasoning, but you can not appeal to the objective rules of science in an attempt to prove the point that homosexuality "needs" to be cured.

So if all defects don't have to be cured, then which ones do and which don't?  Well, that's a subjective personal decision we must reach.  If someone wants to work on curing homosexuality, good for them, but that "cure" shouldn't be forced upon those who want to remain gay no more than forcing brown eyes upon those who want them blue.

PERSONAL PREFERENCE

This ties into the genetic defect point made above in two ways:

1.) If homosexuality is a genetic defect, it doesn't automatically have to be cured.  Forcing genetic corrections on everyone is essentially what Hitler attempted, except his correction was to kill the "imperfect."  If homosexuality is indeed a genetic defect, then one should be able to choose whether they want it "corrected" to the "norm."

2.) If homosexuality has nothing to do with genetics and is a personal choice, then again, I don't see why someone shouldn't be able to choose that lifestyle.  I understand that most of you have no problem with homosexuals choosing to be gay.  The point of contention seems to be more along the lines of what they should be allowed to do in regard to marriage, military service, etc.

Which brings me to...

GAYS AND THE MILITARY

When the "Don't ask, don't tell" policy was being formed, researchers visited Canada, France, Germany, Israel, the Netherlands, Norway, and the United Kingdom.  The UK was the only one who outright banned homosexuals.  Germany had a policy similar to our "don't ask, don't tell," and the others had no limitations whatsoever.

Several observations emerged from these visits.  In countries that allow homosexuals to serve, the number of openly homosexual service members is small.  Open homosexuals did not call attention to themselves in ways that could make their service less efficient or impede their careers.  When problems were reported, they were usually resolved satisfactorily on a case-by-case basis.  None of these countries reported any impairment in military performance resulting from the presence of homosexuals.

It makes sense really.  Whether you are gay or straight, you join the military for a reason: to serve.  Even if it's for education or financial stability, you're still there to fulfill a reason.  Your first inclination is not going to be to flamboyantly parade about or ass ram other dudes spontaneously.  This is not a gay bar; it's a military government organization that will break you down and rebuild you if you attempt to circumvent the rules (and hell, it's going to break you down and rebuild you even if you are obedient).

Our studies confirmed this: Acknowledged homosexuals very seldom challenge the norms and customs of these organizations.  Effectiveness of the organization had not been diminished by the presence of homosexuals on the force.  Recruitment and retention of personnel had not been affected by a policy of nondiscrimination.

The report can be found at the following link:

http://www.rand.org/pubs/monograph_reports/MR323/


And last but not least...

GAY DEMONSTRATIONS

I, too, tire of the rainbow-colored assless chaps and Rupaul makeup that can sometimes be seen during protest parades and gay rights celebrations.  But you know what?  It's free speech.  And while those forms of protests exist and piss me off, there are those more traditional, tasteful parades and protests that I have no problem with.

When it comes to morality and what we should do, there is always going to be disagreement without a resolution.  As mentioned above, morality relies on subjective beliefs and opinions.  I can't objectively prove to someone that homosexuality is wrong no more than I can objectively prove to someone that blue eyes are wrong.

I can utilize statistics to objectively argue why it will or will not affect efficiency, but I can't dictate whether it's morally right or wrong.  And let's face it:  the morality of it has nothing to do with whether it should be allowed in the military.  If it did, then we might ought to start banning Satanists and maybe even non-Christians from the military.  If you're going to force subjective moral beliefs on an institution regardless of its relevancy, you might as well go balls deep with it.
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Re: Man Up - Repealing "Don't Ask Don't Tell "
« Reply #34 on: February 04, 2010, 08:12:46 PM »
I only have this to add. 

I am attracted to all types of females.  Different hair colors.  Different eye colors.  Different heights.  Different sizes.  But I'm highly attracted to brunettes with blue eyes.  Major turn on. 

Do I choose to be attracted to those features?  Could those attracting qualities be altered by medication?

The answer is no to both. 
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Re: Man Up - Repealing "Don't Ask Don't Tell "
« Reply #35 on: February 04, 2010, 08:20:31 PM »
This post probably responds to a lot of different points made, but I'm too lazy to quote them.  Instead, I'll just partition the post into specific topics...

[AWESOME POST]
You complete me...
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Re: Man Up - Repealing "Don't Ask Don't Tell "
« Reply #36 on: February 04, 2010, 08:21:28 PM »
I only have this to add. 

I am attracted to all types of females.  Different hair colors.  Different eye colors.  Different heights.  Different sizes.  But I'm highly attracted to brunettes with blue eyes.  Major turn on. 

Do I choose to be attracted to those features?  Could those attracting qualities be altered by medication?

The answer is no to both. 

I don't have the facts to back it up (nor do even the world's most involved scientific researchers, I don't think), but I've always believed homosexuality to be genetic for just that reason.  There are probably those who choose to be homosexual, but I would almost bet money that homosexuality can be and is a genetic/biological issue for many.

The purpose of being sexually attracted to someone is to propagate the species.  Men find shapely hips, larger breasts, softer hair, etc., to be sexually appealing because they are biological indicators of healthy mates who have a higher chance to pass on your genetics.  If the wiring were to get crossed (for lack of a better phrase), then you may start finding males attractive just as females do.  If there is a switch (again, for lack of a better term) that tells you what to inherently find attractive, then logically that switch could, by means of genetic defect, be "turned" the opposite way.

In the distant future, someone may be able to go in and "cure" your genetic predispositions, such as your affinity for brunettes with blue eyes (assuming that this is even a genetic predisposition).  But if you're fine with it, then why would you want to?  Cures are for maladies we don't want; they're not for quirky traits and personal choices that other people don't want you to have.
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Re: Man Up - Repealing "Don't Ask Don't Tell "
« Reply #37 on: February 04, 2010, 08:22:25 PM »
You complete me...

Just wait until you hear my pro-choice stance...
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Re: Man Up - Repealing "Don't Ask Don't Tell "
« Reply #38 on: February 04, 2010, 08:29:47 PM »
In the distant future, someone may be able to go in and "cure" your genetic predispositions, such as your affinity for brunettes with blue eyes (assuming that this is even a genetic predisposition).  But if you're fine with it, then why would you want to?

To cure things such as genetic predispositions would completely do away with individualism and would certainly destroy the universe.  Or it would at least make the world so boring that I would wish for death.
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Re: Man Up - Repealing "Don't Ask Don't Tell "
« Reply #39 on: February 04, 2010, 08:33:42 PM »
To cure things such as genetic predispositions would completely do away with individualism and would certainly destroy the universe.  Or it would at least make the world so boring that I would wish for death.

I'm getting a little off topic, but that's what bothers me about eugenics.  Sure, I'd love to be able to ensure that my offspring is not going to have any sort of debilitating defects or diseases.  However, the question is where do you stop, and where will other people stop?

Everyone's going to have perfect vision, be of a particular societally accepted height, have a culturally agreed upon attractive hair color and eyes, etc.  Eugenics has the possibility to advance us and do great things for the species, but it also has the ability to essentially make us pre-fabricated biological robots.  And that's just fucking scary.
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