This Ought to Make the Libertarians Happy

[AUTiger1]

I will call bullshit on this.


There may have never been anyone OD on marijuana throughout history  but to say there has never been a death that was marijuana related makes no sense.

Agreed, I had a friend when we were Freshman in college that got high, got in his jeep, ran in a ditch, wrecked and sadly he is no longer with us today b/c of it.

Ok, that is my only blurb about this topic, which I have stayed out of.  I take the Sani approach to this topic:

I don't give a shit what you do as long as it does not interfere with my freedoms of choice.

[Saniflush]

What else would you consider a direct marijuana-related death?

See above.

You aren't suggesting it was the jeep's or the ditch's fault are you?

[Tarheel]

I'll save you the trouble. There has never been a direct marijuana related death throughout history.

So what?

It's still illegal.  I see things as they are not as I want them to be.

Besides, where's the scientific and medical proof?  I've still seen nothing but anecdotal evidence and your word.

[AUChizad]

So what?

It's still illegal.  I see things as they are not as I want them to be.

Besides, where's the scientific and medical proof?  I've still seen nothing but anecdotal evidence and your word.

How many times must we play this game? What's the point? You'll ignore this just like every other link I've provided...

http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/?q=node/30

Annual Causes of Death in the United States
Tobacco    435,000
Poor Diet and Physical Inactivity    365,000
Alcohol    85,000
Microbial Agents    75,000
Toxic Agents    55,000
Motor Vehicle Crashes    26,347
Adverse Reactions to Prescription Drugs    32,000
Suicide    30,622
Incidents Involving Firearms    29,000
Homicide    20,308
Sexual Behaviors    20,000
All Illicit Drug Use, Direct and Indirect    17,0001
Non-Steroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drugs Such As Aspirin    7,600
Marijuana    0

An exhaustive search of the literature finds no credible reports of deaths induced by marijuana. The US Drug Abuse Warning Network (DAWN) records instances of drug mentions in medical examiners' reports, and though marijuana is mentioned, it is usually in combination with alcohol or other drugs. Marijuana alone has not been shown to cause an overdose death.
Source:
National Academy Press, 1999), available on the web at http://www.nap.edu/html/marimed/; and US Department of Justice, Drug Enforcement Administration, "In the Matter of Marijuana Rescheduling Petition" (Docket #86-22), September 6, 1988, p. 57.

http://news.bio-medicine.org/medicine-news-2/Link-between-cannabis-and-death-still-not-established-5588-1/

Although the use of cannabis is not harmless, its link with death is still not established, argues a senior researcher in this week's BMJ.

Two large studies reported no increase in death associated with the use of cannabis. Even diseases that might be related to long term cannabis use are unlikely to have a sizeable public health impact because, unlike users of tobacco and alcohol, most people who try cannabis quit relatively early in their adult lives, writes the author.

Exposure to smoke is generally much lower in cannabis than in tobacco cigarette smokers, even taking into account the larger exposure per puff. Existing studies do not support a link between the use of cannabis and heart disease, the leading cause of death in many Western countries, he adds. Furthermore, cannabis does not contain nicotine, a chemical contained in tobacco that is addicting and contributes to the risk of heart disease.

However, two caveats must be noted regarding available data, warns the author. Firstly, the studies to date have not followed cannabis smokers into later adult life so it might be too early to detect an increase risk of chronic diseases that are potentially associated with the use of cannabis.

Secondly, the low rate of regular cannabis use and the high rate of discontinuation during young adulthood may reflect the illegality and social disapproval of the use of cannabis. This means that we cannot assume that smoking cannabis would continue to have the same small impact on mortality if its use were to be decriminalised or legalised.

While the use of cannabis is not harmless, our current knowledge does not support the assertion that it has an adverse impact on death rates, says the author. Common sense should dictate measures to minimise adverse effects. These include discouraging use by teenagers, not using when driving or operating heavy machinery, not using excessively, and cautioning people with known coronary heart disease.

[Saniflush]

You are using two different sticks to measure by...

Now I understand why this has gone on as many pages as it has.

[Tarheel]

In a nutshell (and correct me if I'm wrong)...

...

Yes, I certainly did read that too Thrilla.  Thanks for posting it again.

What you did not post is that in Portugal they also tightly and rigorously control how much cannabis (and other substances) one can have in one's possession for personal use in addition to the strict school age education programs against using it before becoming old enough to use it.

They approach all drug use (including alcohol) as an illness too.

My point in posting the information from that European source is to demonstrate that there's more to the story than simply just making it legal; hence there are other mitigating circumstances that brought about the result that Ogre posted than just making it legal.

As I mentioned to AUChizad above I try to see things as they are not as I would like them to be (but you know that I have an admitted bias against this substance and you know why, I told everyone about it 15,000 posts ago); if it is ever legalized/decriminalized in America this is exactly the type of program that FedGov (Republicans and Democrats, alike) will grant us in their magnanimity; they are not just going to simply decriminalize/legalize it.

The things that I like about the Portuguese approach are that they treat all drug use as an illness and they have an educated, science-based approach in teaching kids not to use any drugs at all (including alcohol).  That's how they got the results that Ogre posted, not just by decriminalizing it.  And I also like that they still treat trafficking and drug-dealing as criminal activity.

[AUChizad]

You are using two different sticks to measure by...

Now I understand why this has gone on as many pages as it has.

EVEN IF we are talking indirect deaths, marijuana pales in comparison to alcohol.

I already posted the citation on that. Instead of me wasting more time stating the obvious, go back and actually read what I've provided.

[Tarheel]

How many times must we play this game? What's the point? You'll ignore this just like every other link I've provided...
...

Yes, I did read that, AUChizad, and the source for the MJ deaths is this:

[FOOTNOTE 7, ATTRIBUTED TO THE DEATHS BY MJ/CANNABIS USE]

(1996): "Each year, use of NSAIDs (Non-Steroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drugs) accounts for an estimated 7,600 deaths and 76,000 hospitalizations in the United States." (NSAIDs include aspirin, ibuprofen, naproxen, diclofenac, ketoprofen, and tiaprofenic acid.)
Source:
Robyn Tamblyn, PhD; Laeora Berkson, MD, MHPE, FRCPC; W. Dale Jauphinee, MD, FRCPC; David Gayton, MD, PhD, FRCPC; Roland Grad, MD, MSc; Allen Huang, MD, FRCPC; Lisa Isaac, PhD; Peter McLeod, MD, FRCPC; and Linda Snell, MD, MHPE, FRCPC, "Unnecessary Prescribing of NSAIDs and the Management of NSAID-Related Gastropathy in Medical Practice," Annals of Internal Medicine (Washington, DC: American College of Physicians, 1997), September 15, 1997, 127:429-438, from the web at http://www.acponline.org/journals/annals/15sep97/nsaid.htm, last accessed Feb. 14, 2001, citing Fries, JF, "Assessing and understanding patient risk," Scandinavian Journal of Rheumatology Supplement, 1992;92:21-4.

It's over 10 years old and has nothing to do with cannabis/marijuana.

[AUChizad]

Yes, I certainly did read that too Thrilla.  Thanks for posting it again.

What you did not post is that in Portugal they also tightly and rigorously control how much cannabis (and other substances) one can have in one's possession for personal use in addition to the strict school age education programs against using it before becoming old enough to use it.

They approach all drug use (including alcohol) as an illness too.

My point in posting the information from that European source is to demonstrate that there's more to the story than simply just making it legal; hence there are other mitigating circumstances that brought about the result that Ogre posted than just making it legal.

As I mentioned to AUChizad above I try to see things as they are not as I would like them to be (but you know that I have an admitted bias against this substance and you know why, I told everyone about it 15,000 posts ago); if it is ever legalized/decriminalized in America this is exactly the type of program that FedGov (Republicans and Democrats, alike) will grant us in their magnanimity; they are not just going to simply decriminalize/legalize it.

The things that I like about the Portuguese approach are that they treat all drug use as an illness and they have an educated, science-based approach in teaching kids not to use any drugs at all (including alcohol).  That's how they got the results that Ogre posted, not just by decriminalizing it.  And I also like that they still treat trafficking and drug-dealing as criminal activity.

How would you feel about being required to go to some bullshit rehabilitation course if you get caught with a beer or cigar despite knowing full well you don't have an addiction problem?

[Saniflush]

EVEN IF we are talking indirect deaths, marijuana pales in comparison to alcohol.

You chose the wording not I.  

[AUChizad]

Yes, I did read that, AUChizad, and the source for the MJ deaths is this:

It's over 10 years old and has nothing to do with cannabis/marijuana.

:eyeroll:

Is WebMD accurate enough for you?
http://www.webmd.com/smoking-cessation/news/20030918/marijuana-smoking-doesnt-kill

Marijuana Smoking Doesn't Kill
Illegal Herb Not Harmless, but Data Show No Link to Death
By Daniel J. DeNoon
WebMD Health News

Sept. 18, 2003 -- Marijuana smoking isn't harmless, but at least it won't kill you.

It's been feared that marijuana smoke, like tobacco smoke, causes cancer and heart disease. The evidence argues otherwise, writes Stephen Sidney, MD, associate director for research for Kaiser Permanente, Oakland, Calif., in the Sept 20 issue of The British Medical Journal.

"Although the use of [marijuana] is not harmless, the current knowledge base does not support the assertion that it has any notable adverse public health impact in relation to mortality," Sidney concludes.

No Marijuana Deaths in 2 Large Studies

Sidney points to two large studies. The first is from (where else?) California. A large HMO looked at 65,177 men and women age 15-49. Over 10 years, marijuana users died no sooner than nonusers.

The second study looked at 45,450 Swedish army conscripts. They were 18-20 years old when asked about marijuana use. Fifteen years later, the marijuana users were just as likely to remain alive as nonusers.

And since marijuana smoking can't kill outright -- there's no such thing as a fatal marijuana overdose -- short-term use isn't deadly. Long-term use can't be good for you. But Sidney notes that most marijuana smokers don't become long-term users.

One worry about marijuana smoke is that it is inhaled, and held, deep in the lungs. But the typical user smokes only one marijuana cigarette -- or less -- a day. Tobacco users often smoke 20 or more cigarettes daily. Moreover, tobacco contains nicotine, a highly addictive substance. Marijuana, Sidney concludes, is less likely to harm than tobacco.

A 2001 study suggested that marijuana smoking increases the risk of heart attack in the hour immediately after smoking. But this seems to be the case in no more than one-fifth of 1% of heart attacks -- a very rare risk indeed.

More Marijuana Deaths in the Future?

Marijuana users shouldn't cancel their life insurance policies just yet. Sidney warns that longer-term data may indeed show that marijuana smoking eventually raises the risk of premature death.

And if marijuana is legalized, long-term use may become more common. If this is the case, there certainly will be more long-term effects of marijuana use.

SOURCE: Sidney, S. The British Medical Journal, Sept. 20, 2003; vol 327: pp 635-636.

[AUChizad]

You chose the wording not I.  

I said:

There has never been a direct marijuana related death throughout history.

[GarMan]

Bored enough to waste 5 more minutes of googling...

http://bily.org/PAGES/resources/TeensCanAccessDrugsEasily.pdf

http://www.decp.org/documents/pdfs/WhatNew/CASA%202008%20Teen%20Survey.pdf

Like I originally said, you can find stats on both sides of this...
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/dcf/du.htm

Reported drug and alcohol use by high school seniors, 2007

                   Used within the last:
------------------------------------
Drugs           12 months 30 days 
------------------------------------
Alcohol             66.4 %   44.4 % 
Marijuana          31.7      18.8   
Other opiates      9.2        3.8   
Stimulants          7.5        3.7   
Sedatives           6.2        2.7   
Tranquilizers        6.2        2.6   
Cocaine              5.2        2.0   
Hallucinogens       5.4        1.7   
Inhalants             3.7        1.2   
Steroids              1.4        1.0   
Heroin                 0.9        0.4

I thought teens are supposed to be smoking more pot...   

[Tarheel]

Agreed, I had a friend when we were Freshman in college that got high, got in his jeep, ran in a ditch, wrecked and sadly he is no longer with us today b/c of it.

Ok, that is my only blurb about this topic, which I have stayed out of.  I take the Sani approach to this topic:

I am very sorry to hear about that, AUTiger1.  This is similar to the reason for my admitted bias against cannabis; it lead directly to destructive behavior in two of my family members (one of whom is now dead).

[Tarheel]

How would you feel about being required to go to some bullshit rehabilitation course if you get caught with a beer or cigar despite knowing full well you don't have an addiction problem?

If it would help control the use/abuse of the rest of the mind-altering substances you want to legalize I'm all for it.  Too many people abuse alcohol as it is now (yes, I've done it too).

I think there's some validity to the Portuguese approach.  It is showing some very positive, responsible results.

[AUChizad]

Like I originally said, you can find stats on both sides of this...
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/dcf/du.htm
 

I thought teens are supposed to be smoking more pot...   

Since when does availability = use?

You claimed that I was talking out my ass when I said that marijuana is easier to get than alcohol for high school kids. You claimed that once it was legal there would just be rampant use amongst high schoolers.

Despite the fact (supported by not only my own experience, but statistical evidence) that it is easier to GET marijuana, kids still use alcohol more frequently.

[Tarheel]

:eyeroll:

Is WebMD accurate enough for you?
http://www.webmd.com/smoking-cessation/news/20030918/marijuana-smoking-doesnt-kill

That is, in fact, interesting; I'll read through it thoroughly.  Thanks.

[Tarheel]

:eyeroll:

By the way, I did note the condescending tone of the 'eye-roll smiley'; it doesn't de-legitimize my point with your previous source chart.  The footnoted source is irrelevant to the data that the chart shows about cannabis deaths.

Nevertheless, I'll read the WebMD article (and check the sources too).

[GarMan]

Since when does availability = use?

You claimed that I was talking out my ass when I said that marijuana is easier to get than alcohol for high school kids. You claimed that once it was legal there would just be rampant use amongst high schoolers.

Despite the fact (supported by not only my own experience, but statistical evidence) that it is easier to GET marijuana, kids still use alcohol more frequently.

Well, you're either talking out of your ass right now, or you can't remember what bullshit you say from one post to the next.  Let's review...

MORE kids are smoking marijuana now at a "developmental age" because they can't their hands on alcohol because they can't purchase it from the stores, and there's no (notable) black market for alcohol.

I believe that your intention was very clear and meant to convince me that pot use among teens was more than alcohol use is today.  Now, you're backing off that claim.  You posted that...  Not me...

[AUTiger1]

I am very sorry to hear about that, AUTiger1.  This is similar to the reason for my admitted bias against cannabis; it lead directly to destructive behavior in two of my family members (one of whom is now dead).

He was a good guy, you fuckers would have loved him.....I don't know if he would have ended up pitching for the Tigers, but damn good chance he could have.  He could hurl a horsehide in the high 80's low 90's and was one intimidating mother to look at from homeplate.  He just didn't have the grades to go straight D-1.