This Ought to Make the Libertarians Happy

[tiger88]

I'm sure you meant 50%, not 5.

Statistics show that 42% of Americans ADMIT to smoking marijuana despite its illegality.

Maybe 5% are as adamantly supportive of the law as GarMan and TarHeel...

No, I meant 5%. That is what a friend told me they had read in a study one time. It might be a stretch but it is believable to me. It's not far off at least.

42% have admitted that they smoked at some time but only a small portion of those are regular smokers. Somewhere around 5-10% of the population I would guess, perhaps more.

Heroin is a better example. A much smaller portion of the population uses heroin and it can't be effectively policed. I mean if your having trouble getting your heroin just go get arrested. You won't have trouble finding some in any federal pen. in America. The vast majority of Americans feel heroin should be illegal and only a small portion of people use it, yet it can't be effectively policed. The shit is everywhere, especially in big cities.

[AUChizad]

I guess I don't understand your definition of "indifferent"

If you have 5% of the population being indifferent to a certain law it can not be effectively policed. See  marijuana and speeding for examples.

So 5% of the population are indifferent to the law, meaning 95% of people abide faithfully? 95% of people strictly obey the speed limit? 95% of people have never smoked pot?

I'm not being a dick, I just really don't understand the argument you're trying to make.

[GarMan]

So if this was 1930 I'm sure you would have been arguing your case against alcohol before prohibition was repealed, right?  Lord knows what it would do to our society if we allowed people to drink the devil's juice! 

I don't know.  It would depend on the science and available information at the time.  That was also back in the day when smoking tobacco was supposed to be good for you.  As for what we know now, the influence of THC on brain development is far more serious than the affects of alcohol.  

Each study you cited had "Heavy Use" or "Long-term" or some other variation of those in the title or first paragraph.  Well no shit - I'm sure I can find plenty of articles on the heavy use of alcohol as it relates to an adolescent brain.  I could, but I won't, because I'm a lazy pothead. 

Everything that I've seen and read convinces me that it's a dumb move.  

Don't get me wrong, I'm not railing on alcohol here.  Lord knows I love me some alcohol.  I just don't get the moral soapbox speech with regards to pot.  

I'm not on a moral soapbox.  Nothing I said would even suggest that.

[AUChizad]

Everything that I've seen and read convinces me that it's a dumb move.  

Your argument is predicated on the idea that the SAME amount of consumption of marijuana is as dangerous as the SAME amount of consumption of alcohol, and that's just not true.

As far as your whole lazy worthless dregs of society stereotype, I'm giving you credit and assuming you're talking about people who smoke several times a day. How productive are people who stay drunk all day? I have a friend whose dad is a major alcoholic. He's not curing cancer.

Which brings up TarHeel's argument I let slide earlier, about how you'd get fired if you showed up with alcohol on your breath. No shit! No one's advocating showing up to work high. But if you take a piss test for your job and it shows up that you consumed alcohol in the last month, no one gives a shit.

[tiger88]

I guess I don't understand your definition of "indifferent"
So 5% of the population are indifferent to the law, meaning 95% of people abide faithfully? 95% of people strictly obey the speed limit? 95% of people have never smoked pot?

I'm not being a dick, I just really don't understand the argument you're trying to make.

Obviously.   The word indifferent is confusing. Let's say that 5% indulge or disregard a certain law.

5% is the threshold. If 5% or more of the population disregard a certain law then it can not be effectively policed. MJ and speeding are just two of the easiest examples to pull out of your hat. 5 % of the population is roughly 15 million people or so. The police and law enforcement establishment can't keep up with it when the numbers run that high.

I doubt that 5% of the population uses heroin yet it is very arguable that it can't be effectively policed either. I mean it is hugely poular in big cities from what I hear.

Murder and rape are the other end of the spectrum. Most people would turn in their neighbor in a heartbeat if they knew he/she had done either one of those. Murder is much more enforceable because less than 5% of the public feel it is an okay thing to do and therefore choose not to murder people.

I'm not saying 5 % is the true threshold but I have heard it is and it wouldn't surprise me if it were accurate. The true number can't be far off.

Whatever the case, we are pissing away billions per year on keeping MJ illegal and to me it is a complete waste of funds. I smoked for years and the worst effect it had on me was in the pocketbook due to the fact it was illegal. We could de-criminalize it, save billions on prosecution and incarceration costs per year, and make millions or billions per year on taxing it. Most people I know who smoke (d) would gladly pay 20$ for a cigarette like pack of smokes, of which the vast majority could be for taxes.

Hell, I would probably find ways to get by with just eating it if it were legal. Some gonja on an empty stomach can be quite powerful.

[Thrilla]

I think a major bone of contention here is with the perception of how society views those that are caught with illegal drugs, especially marijuana.

You see, those folks that are irresponsible and, once again, have no self-control that smoke the ganja and get arrested or sucked into other illicit, more damaging drugs will get caught.  These folks are not looking out for themselves, but looking out for their habit.  When they get caught, they're typically trashy, hippie-ish, or low-lifes.  This is what we see typically see as a "by-product" of pot usage.  In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if most of the data used in the arguments by anti-marijuana propenents takes these idiots and their cognitive abilities into question.

But, there are just as many, if not more, that smoke it and stay under the radar.  Like Chizzad and Ogre, I know my fair share of users that are professionally and personally successful.  I consider myself to be one of these people.  These people smoke, but don't get caught, and enjoy their lives with marijuana integrated into it similarly to how people integrate alcohol and tobacco into their lives.  But you typically don't group these people into users, because they must stay under the radar due to these dumb-ass arcane illegal drug laws that we're debating.

The data for these demographics is skewed, and so is perception.

Now take this shit from me, it's burning my fingers...

[Saniflush]

Your argument is predicated on the idea that the SAME amount of consumption of marijuana is as dangerous as the SAME amount of consumption of alcohol, and that's just not true.

I hate it when I have to drink my pot

Which brings up TarHeel's argument I let slide earlier, about how you'd get fired if you showed up with alcohol on your breath. No shit! No one's advocating showing up to work high. But if you take a piss test for your job and it shows up that you consumed alcohol in the last month, no one gives a shit.

No one give a shit because at this point it is legal to buy and consume.

[Thrilla]

I hate it when I have to drink my pot

No one give a shit because at this point it is legal to buy and consume.

I'm glad you edited that.  I was very confused. 

[AUChizad]

Obviously.  The word indifferent is confusing. Let's say that 5% indulge or disregard a certain law.

5% is the threshold. If 5% or more of the population disregard a certain law then it can not be effectively policed. MJ and speeding are just two of the easiest examples to pull out of your hat. 5 % of the population is roughly 15 million people or so. The police and law enforcement establishment can't keep up with it when the numbers run that high.

I doubt that 5% of the population uses heroin yet it is very arguable that it can't be effectively policed either. I mean it is hugely poular in big cities from what I hear.

Murder and rape are the other end of the spectrum. Most people would turn in their neighbor in a heartbeat if they knew he/she had done either one of those. Murder is much more enforceable because less than 5% of the public feel it is an okay thing to do and therefore choose not to murder people.

I'm not saying 5 % is the true threshold but I have heard it is and it wouldn't surprise me if it were accurate. The true number can't be far off.

Whatever the case, we are pissing away billions per year on keeping MJ illegal and to me it is a complete waste of funds. I smoked for years and the worst effect it had on me was in the pocketbook due to the fact it was illegal. We could de-criminalize it, save billions on prosecution and incarceration costs per year, and make millions or billions per year on taxing it. Most people I know who smoke (d) would gladly pay 20$ for a cigarette like pack of smokes, of which the vast majority could be for taxes.

Hell, I would probably find ways to get by with just eating it if it were legal. Some gonja on an empty stomach can be quite powerful.

We totally agree then. I really just didn't understand what you meant. You're saying that if 5% or more of the population is indifferent to a law, than it's not enforceable. I agree. I thought you were arguing that 95% of Americans ardently obide by the laws you mentioned.

No one give a shit because at this point it is legal to buy and consume.

Exactly my point.

[Tarheel]

Wow. This is why I don't spend much time in the political forums. It doesn't take long before an idiot makes an ignorant, myopic, ridiculous, argument based on nothing but their own generalizations, which themselves are based on nothing but what the agenda they support perpetuates. You can't argue with ignorance. But I'll try.
...

A holier-than-thou, libertarian pot-head.  How's that fucking view from your tower of self-righteous, pseudo-intellectual superiority?  Talk about myopic.

I guess you can't argue with ignorance.

THIS kind of statement is exactly why I'm not wasting any more of my valuable time arguing with you on this subject.

[GarMan]

Wow. This is why I don't spend much time in the political forums. It doesn't take long before an idiot makes an ignorant, myopic, ridiculous, argument based on nothing but their own generalizations, which themselves are based on nothing but what the agenda they support perpetuates. You can't argue with ignorance. But I'll try.

Shouldn't you be a bridesmaid in some gay marriage today?  Hey FUCKTARD, it's not ignorance.  It's humorous sarcasm.  Have fun with it.  If you can't take the jabs, get the fuck out.  Don't get so bitchy when someone throws a little mud on your shoes.  I don't care to stroke your worthless feelings and emotions.  This feminization of America's younger generations is driving me nuts!

Yes. Things have changed since you grew up. I don't know if you're aware but you have to be 21 to buy alcohol now. Penalties for contributing to minors are serious. For high school kids it is FAR easier to find a 16 year old that grows pot in his room to sell it to you than it is to get someone to go the the store to pick up a 6 pack for you.

Yes, the legal age was 21 when I was 16 too.  So what?  We still got our hands on it.  Where's the study that shows more kids experiment with MJ than alcohol?  You made the statement.  Let's see some facts. 

Who taught you that term? Cognitive ability? Just because someone used it to burn your argument before doesn't mean that it is a trump card to just pull out when you have nothing else to say.

Actually, I believe that I officially learned about it in my freshman psychology course in college.  Plus, just about every scientific study that I've seen on MJ use mentions the ill affects on cognitive ability, but thanks for asking...   

When I originally typed that, I KNEW you would say something about what scum of the earth lawyers are. You are a joke. Yeah, nothing but burnouts and unmotivated losers make it through law school. It's basically where the special ed class and in school suspension kids end up ten years down the road, right?

And I'm not talking about 2 or 3 I know. I'm talking about at least 90% of the 40+ law school students I know.

This is too easy...  Next, you're going to throw out movie stars and musicians.  In your shallow little feminized mind, these are the "great achievers" and "great contributors" to society.  The joke's on you... 

God forbid, my kid ends up one of those no good doctors. Man, I tell you, I will make damn sure to tell my kids every night,  "Whatever you do, don't experiment with drugs. You don't want to end up in a dead-end job working as a doctor or lawyer." 

God forbid, your seed produces a kid...  If these are the types of "doctors and lawyers" that you want on your side... nevermind...   :thumbsup: 

Wait!  Did you just mention "God"?  You people and your concepts of morality!!! 

I'd be willing to bet the house that they will be. I'm basing this on the fact that I actually know the people I speak of, and knowing how intelligent and successful they are already at such a young age. I'm sorry I'm 26, so my peers too are in their 20s.  This cripples my argument how? The law school and med school students I know today, will be doctors and lawyers in the next couple of years. And there's nothing to indicate with a year left of med school or a semester left of law school that any of them are anywhere near any kind of danger of flunking out, as I guess you're assuming.

Look man, I appreciate your position on this, but you haven't even tried to understand the affects of MJ use if your argument is based on kids in the present.  You're only focused on the here and now, and you're not looking at how the damage manifests itself in the future.  That's all I'm trying to say.  Look at these guys down the road and tell me how they stack up to their peer group.  At least, based on the things that I have read, you'll see something there that supports my side of this.

I don't know what you do for a living that's so high and mighty, but I do know that you probably make less than the 24 year old "clown", I'm fairly certain that you did when you were his age, and I also know that most people in the real world consider doctors and lawyers to be esteemed occupations. It's safe to say most would probably rank it above whatever it is you do, in terms of success and the drive and motivation it takes to get there. And no, I'm not trying to turn this into an elitist "You don't make as much as so-and-so" argument, but you're the one lumping everyone who smokes pot into this dregs of society, absolute bottom tier of the caste system.

No...  You just don't get it; you're not keeping up.  I'm saying, based on everything that I have read on the topic, people who use MJ are handicapping themselves.  I'm not really talking about who earns more and less right now.  There's no "high and mighty" argument here, although I'm throwing out some humorous sarcasim to keep you going (and WOW is it working!).  None of that matters.  This is where the conservative versus liberal view comes to light, and your view is the liberal view.  You're too focused on the here and now, even with the risks.  If it feels good, do it.  Don't worry about those pesky consequences...  On the other hand, the conservative point of view recognizes that there are consequences to everything.  If scientific study after scientific study suggest that MJ use during the developmental years can lead to longer term mental issues, why take that risk?  That's it. 

How many gold medals have you won for the United States? More than anyone ever in the entire 3000 year old history of the Olympics, or zero? You'd think this would be the Jesse Owens to your inferiority argument, Hitler, but I guess you're more closed minded than Adolf himself. I tell you, that marijuana just makes you a completely worthless drain on society, incapable of reaching goals or having ambition. A perfect model of an unhealthy lifestyle.

  Again, you continue to be focused on the here and now.  You can teach a monkey to do just about anything.  If this twirp is the pothead that he appears to be, let's see where he ends up in another couple of decades when the damage to his brain becomes more evident.  If he is what he appears to be, I suspect that he'll end up just like those other washed-out thug athletes.  On top of the world today...  Swimming in the gutters tomorrow...

He's an idiot when it's convenient to your argument. A misunderstood genius when THAT fits your argument.

You can't keep up...  I've never called him a "genius", but it must be acceptable for YOU to use generalizations of some straw-man Republipuke that you've assembled in your feminized mind.  You're pathetic with your brush and your broad strokes...   

What about Arnold Schwarzenegger?

Let me guess, he's not a REAL Republican either. No kind of success story there...

How about another Republican Governor, Michael Bloomberg? Look up his response when New York Magazine asked him if he ever smoked pot. "You bet I did. And I enjoyed it!" Eighth richest man in the world worth over 20 billion dollars...He must have acquired that from sucking dick in back alleyways, since we all know that's all that a pot smoker can amount to.

We probably need another discussion thread to review how those who win beauty pagents and popularity contests aren't really producers and achievers.  By the way, those evil Republicans aren't exactly proud of these two mental giants, and I thought Bloomberg became an independent. 

Ted Turner funds the Kentucky Hemp Museum...sure would hate to have his billions...Oh yeah, I forgot he's a communist because he founded CNN. Damn, when you can so quickly shoot my arguments because they're on your 10 billion page black list, I guess I just have no credibility. 

My blacklist isn't that big...  Seriously, you're not even discussing the original topic.  You're searching for role models to excuse the behavior.  Is this how you win arguments? 

I'm growing tired of this pathetic whining and bitching...  "I know you are but what am I?"  Blah, blah, blah...   

It goes without saying that every musician ever is on your list. Nah, you strike me more of a Toby Kieth fan. Oh, damn, guess you've never heard "Smoke Weed With Willie".

More into the "pure" country artists, probably then right. Like Hank Williams Sr. & Jr., Johnny Cash, David Allan Coe, Waylon Jennings, Merle Haggard, Willie Nelson...damn damn damn!!!

Musicians...   

Are we done here?

Well, if all you have are silly little emotional outbursts with the occassional "role model" exception, I guess so... 

Ogre already pointed out what should be painfully obvious, so I won't repeat it here.

Well, give me some real science that says it's good for you, or not as bad as alcohol.  You guys try to justify your behavior by bringing up others who do it, admitted to doing it, or have been caught doing it.  Most people grow out of that by age 10.  It seems that some don't... 

This is laughable. The one that lacks an agenda? Seriously? Damn science and it's agenda. Damn actual facts besides the made up statistics you can parrot from the same inventors of this farcical war on drugs.

There you go with that brush again...  You haven't even scratched the surface of the "war on drugs" issue.  So, do we only legalize pot, or how does it work in your mind?  What do we do about cocaine?  And, crack is a whole other issues...  Meth is really big right now too!   :eyeroll:

And after all this, keep in mind that I can count on one hand the number of times I've smoked pot, so don't paint me into your hippie devoid of all credibility brush.

Me too... 

[GarMan]

This is a pretty weak post, but I'll give it a minute.

Prosecuting people for smoking and pssessing marijuana is one of the stupidest fucking things this country does. It is a monumental waste of money and is similar to pissing in the wind.

I don't think we have an excessive number of convictions for the above issues.  Most convictions involve transport and distribution. 

There's your minute...

[GarMan]

I'm sure you meant 50%, not 5.

Statistics show that 42% of Americans ADMIT to smoking marijuana despite its illegality.

Maybe 5% are as adamantly supportive of the law as GarMan and TarHeel...

What law?  Let's be specific (or pacific for some) if we're going to paint broad strokes wiff dat brush.

[GarMan]

I love lead paint chips.

When they're properly salted with a bit of salsa, they fuckin' rock!

[GarMan]

I guess I don't understand your definition of "indifferent"
So 5% of the population are indifferent to the law, meaning 95% of people abide faithfully? 95% of people strictly obey the speed limit? 95% of people have never smoked pot?

I'm not being a dick, I just really don't understand the argument you're trying to make.

I think he was hitting a bong while typing.  That shit will rot your brain, man!  The stat doesn't make any sense. 

And, don't sell yourself short.  With a little more effort, you CAN be a dick. 

[GarMan]

Your argument is predicated on the idea that the SAME amount of consumption of marijuana is as dangerous as the SAME amount of consumption of alcohol, and that's just not true.

Well, how would you measure that?  Does the "SAME amount" mean absorption by the body?  What about chemical influence?  That's a tough call.  I think it's safe to say that a physically small amount of MJ affects you in ways that are equivalent to a much larger amount of alcohol consumption. 

As far as your whole lazy worthless dregs of society stereotype, I'm giving you credit and assuming you're talking about people who smoke several times a day. How productive are people who stay drunk all day? I have a friend whose dad is a major alcoholic. He's not curing cancer.

HOLD ON THERE COWBOY!!!  THAT was your perception from my post.  YOU took it to the extreme.  That's not what I said.  MJ affects brain development.  It doesn't mean that you'll be a retard tomorrow.  It just suggests that you'll be less than what you could have been. 

Which brings up TarHeel's argument I let slide earlier, about how you'd get fired if you showed up with alcohol on your breath. No shit! No one's advocating showing up to work high. But if you take a piss test for your job and it shows up that you consumed alcohol in the last month, no one gives a shit.

Technically, a recent study has shown that MJ consumption doesn't just reside in the body for 30 days, it can affect you for up to 30 days.  Something about <I don't care.>...  blah, blah, blah... 

I found one reference to it... 
http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/news/20050207/marijuanas-effects-linger-in-brain?src=rss_foxnews

And, the source...
Herning, R. Neurology, Feb. 8, 2005; vol 64: pp 488-493. News release, American Academy of Neurology. 

[GarMan]

Obviously.   The word indifferent is confusing. Let's say that 5% indulge or disregard a certain law.

5% is the threshold. If 5% or more of the population disregard a certain law then it can not be effectively policed. MJ and speeding are just two of the easiest examples to pull out of your hat. 5 % of the population is roughly 15 million people or so. The police and law enforcement establishment can't keep up with it when the numbers run that high. 

Actually, there was a study not too far back that showed more that 40% of the population wouldn't have a problem with theft if "someone was hungry".  Should that make it legal?  Just a thought... 

[tiger88]

Actually, there was a study not too far back that showed more that 40% of the population wouldn't have a problem with theft if "someone was hungry".  Should that make it legal?  Just a thought... 

I knew someone would play this card or something similar. What is the main difference between theft for any reason and smoking a joint or eating a hash brownie? Hint: one "crime" has a victim and the other one doesn't.

[tiger88]

This is a pretty weak post, but I'll give it a minute.
I don't think we have an excessive number of convictions for the above issues.  Most convictions involve transport and distribution. 

There's your minute...

That took you a minute?

Depends on what article you read. I read one that said 1 out of 6 people in prison were there for mj related crimes and 25% of those were for simple possession type deals. Take just that % and it is a monumental waste of money. Throw in the other stuff (trafficking, etc.) which would diminish to a large degree were it legalized and then it is colossally dumb.


We are now, and have been for a while the #1 country in the world afa % of the poulation in jail. We just passed the 1 % mark last year.. There was 1 out of 99 people incarcerated in jails /prisons last year. One huge reason is because we simply love putting people away for victimless/moral crimes.  Some people just love to thump their bibles.

[GarMan]

I knew someone would play this card or something similar. What is the main difference between theft for any reason and smoking a joint or eating a hash brownie? Hint: one "crime" has a victim and the other one doesn't.

Again, only the immediate short-sided view...  I think the current down-breeding trend of our American society really doesn't need anymore stimulation to accelerate our decline.  Public schools are a fucking joke.  Now, many of our universities are turning to shit, or at a minimum, they're churning out shit-for-brain kids who can't think or do anything without explicit directions and extensive babysitting.  The civil rights movement has adopted socialist and communist ideals pushing them for decades.  Now, we've got a President who seems to be a Marxist worshiper legislating wealth redistribution and a gross expansion of the federal government to rule over the peasants.  And, you guys want to legalize pot?