Today is the day all of you gay Xers unite!

[War Eagle!!!]

Hmm. Faith. You missed it.

I have faith in God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. I don't put a lot of faith in man. Too many assholes that will hide behind Jesus and put whatever agenda they want out their as the "word of God".

[War Eagle!!!]

That seems to be the new wave of live and let live.

It matters not how you wish to try to rewrite the bible, sin is still sin. And on many occasions Jesus rebuked sin. he never wavered in that.

I have no problem giving the gays a way to have to same legal options as married people, I just don't want marriage to be redefined so as to make the gays feel their lifestyle is now accepted and legitimate. It is not.

And when someone wants to marry more than one person, allow that also. If three lesbians all want to be married and enjoy the benefits of filing jointly, print up that new box on the IRS forms. If I want to marry my cousin, sign that form.

If someone can choose to marry the same sex, then a lot more options should be open to those who FEEL they are right also.

And another thing, I am not 100% convinced that being gay is a "choice". I am not 100% that you are gay by birth either though. How can I tell if someone is truly attracted to or in love with the same sex? If I don't know...how can you guys be so sure? So if there is a chance that a person is born gay, how is it a sin? Because the bible says so? Is that the only way?

There are just too many variables for me to make a complete judgement about people that I truly don't know their hearts. I think that is what Jesus would want me to do. Love everyone and not judge them if there is a chance their hearts are in the right place.

[CCTAU]

That's why I'm thinking there is more made out of this than warranted. There is plenty of sin to target. There is no need to call in the justice department for fear that you gays have a monopoly.

That is true. There is plenty of sin to target. That is why we are given the gift of repentance. We know we will slip up. Its in our nature. But if you slip up on a daily basis, was there ever repentance? Did you ever understand and truly repent? Repentance is not a get out of jail free card as a priest (and many others it seems) would have you to think.

It it makes us feel good and we enjoy it, does that mean I must have been born this way and I should be able to live how I want, even if it goes against God? That is the question. All most people are doing now with homosexuality is trying to bargain with God on what he really meant. I've found that when telling God what he meant instead of searching for his meaning, we get onto t bit of trouble.

[War Eagle!!!]

It it makes us feel good and we enjoy it, does that mean I must have been born this way and I should be able to live how I want, even if it goes against God? That is the question. All most people are doing now with homosexuality is trying to bargain with God on what he really meant. I've found that when telling God what he meant instead of searching for his meaning, we get onto t bit of trouble.

How the fuck can you even make this argument? So gay people just want to feel good? That's the dumbest fucking thing I have ever heard in my life...

Most gay people are just bargaining with God? Fucking stupid.

You have found that telling God what he meant gets you in trouble? Aren't you doing that now? How do you freaking know??? The irony in this statement alone is baffling to me...

[WiregrassTiger]

I have faith in God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. I don't put a lot of faith in man. Too many assholes that will hide behind Jesus and put whatever agenda they want out their as the "word of God".

I agree with WE that man can pick and choose. And I've seen some things that I didn't understand, that seemed conflicting if someone chose to look at it that way. At the same time, I do believe that there were/are prophets. I'm a long way from being a bible scholar but I think that Paul explained  the mark of an apostle in II Chorinthians, is signs, miracles and wonders. In other words, I believe that there were men that were inspired by God and that God spoke through them. That has a lot to do with the Christian faith.

I don't fully understand the particulars of who decided what books made it into the bible. Council of Trent? And, why the Apocrypha was left out of the Protestant bible. But, I still believe that it was divinely inspired. That's why it's called faith. I certainly can't prove anything.

[CCTAU]

And another thing, I am not 100% convinced that being gay is a "choice". I am not 100% that you are gay by birth either though. How can I tell if someone is truly attracted to or in love with the same sex? If I don't know...how can you guys be so sure? So if there is a chance that a person is born gay, how is it a sin? Because the bible says so? Is that the only way?

There are just too many variables for me to make a complete judgement about people that I truly don't know their hearts. I think that is what Jesus would want me to do. Love everyone and not judge them if there is a chance their hearts are in the right place.

If the bible is not true, then no sin exists and we are all good. You may as well wait on the mother wheel to pick you up. There are too many things in the Bible that are connected throughout its writings to be conjured up by man. You cannot get two men to agree on anything, yet, you want to think that many men throughout history have agreed to keep the flow of the whole thing? Like I said, faith. If the guide book is wrong, then so is the premise of God.

And in keeping with that, I have to believe that what God says is sin, remains sin. We cannot rewrite what has been written to allow for our lifestyles. And there are many perverse lifestyles out there that people give in to their desires. Most of us look at those and think poorly of it. Why is it now that one of those lifestyles is being accepted and not all of the others.

Sin ans Satan will always have access to this world. Our fight is to daily try to keep that sin from winning (with God's help), not to give in to it ans say if it feels right, it must be good.

Once gain, God is love, but he is oh so much more than that. And hell does exist. Evil does exist. And there will be consequences for our actions. Will we be judged as a whole(as Sodom and Gomorrah) or as individuals (Lott). That is up to God and how we each serve him, I guess. But he gave us a guide as to how the consequences come to fruition. I'd rather not be in the Sodom and Gomorrah camp when that day comes.

And since when did pointing out sin and holding each other accountable for that sin become JUDGING? I'll tell you when. When the left taught you that if you say anything against the perverted left, you are judging. It is not so. Accountability is NOT judging.   

[WiregrassTiger]

If the bible is not true, then no sin exists and we are all good. You may as well wait on the mother wheel to pick you up. There are too many things in the Bible that are connected throughout its writings to be conjured up by man. You cannot get two men to agree on anything, yet, you want to think that many men throughout history have agreed to keep the flow of the whole thing? Like I said, faith. If the guide book is wrong, then so is the premise of God.

And in keeping with that, I have to believe that what God says is sin, remains sin. We cannot rewrite what has been written to allow for our lifestyles. And there are many perverse lifestyles out there that people give in to their desires. Most of us look at those and think poorly of it. Why is it now that one of those lifestyles is being accepted and not all of the others.

Sin ans Satan will always have access to this world. Our fight is to daily try to keep that sin from winning (with God's help), not to give in to it ans say if it feels right, it must be good.

Once gain, God is love, but he is oh so much more than that. And hell does exist. Evil does exist. And there will be consequences for our actions. Will we be judged as a whole(as Sodom and Gomorrah) or as individuals (Lott). That is up to God and how we each serve him, I guess. But he gave us a guide as to how the consequences come to fruition. I'd rather not be in the Sodom and Gomorrah camp when that day comes.

And since when did pointing out sin and holding each other accountable for that sin become JUDGING? I'll tell you when. When the left taught you that if you say anything against the perverted left, you are judging. It is not so. Accountability is NOT judging.

My problem is not with calling out sin. It's with people saying that their sin is less than other's sin. It has nothing to do with left and right, imo. Hypocrisy isn't penned up on just one side.

[Snaggletiger]

If I was a gay man, me and WE would be having some nekkid time.  But in all seriousness, his take on the Bible being written by mortal man is exactly what I was trying to convey earlier about taking into consideration the times, places and events that existed when it was written.  Plus, Ogre asked the question of whether I cherry pick the parts that I want to use.  I gave the example of Paul speaking on slavery.  Here are several versions from Ephesians 6:5

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.

New Living Translation
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.

English Standard Version
Bondservants, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ,

New American Standard Bible
Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ;

King James Bible
Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;


I have a question.  All X jokes aside, does anyone here believe that slavery of any kind is acceptable or that the God you worship encourages or even condones it? I'll answer that.  Of course not.  But these are supposedly instructions from Paul inspired by the Holy Spirit, just as much as him instructing the Church not to engage in the ghey butt secks.  He didn't say not to enslave people.  He didn't say it was wrong.  He didn't say it's a sin.  He instructed enslaved people to be obedient to their worldly masters just as they are obedient to Christ.

And spare me the Greek translations of "slaves" and what he really meant.  That was just something that was just as acceptable in those times as stoning someone to death for adultery.   

[GH2001]

If the bible is not true, then no sin exists and we are all good. You may as well wait on the mother wheel to pick you up. There are too many things in the Bible that are connected throughout its writings to be conjured up by man. You cannot get two men to agree on anything, yet, you want to think that many men throughout history have agreed to keep the flow of the whole thing? Like I said, faith. If the guide book is wrong, then so is the premise of God.

And in keeping with that, I have to believe that what God says is sin, remains sin. We cannot rewrite what has been written to allow for our lifestyles. And there are many perverse lifestyles out there that people give in to their desires. Most of us look at those and think poorly of it. Why is it now that one of those lifestyles is being accepted and not all of the others.

Sin ans Satan will always have access to this world. Our fight is to daily try to keep that sin from winning (with God's help), not to give in to it ans say if it feels right, it must be good.

Once gain, God is love, but he is oh so much more than that. And hell does exist. Evil does exist. And there will be consequences for our actions. Will we be judged as a whole(as Sodom and Gomorrah) or as individuals (Lott). That is up to God and how we each serve him, I guess. But he gave us a guide as to how the consequences come to fruition. I'd rather not be in the Sodom and Gomorrah camp when that day comes.

And since when did pointing out sin and holding each other accountable for that sin become JUDGING? I'll tell you when. When the left taught you that if you say anything against the perverted left, you are judging. It is not so. Accountability is NOT judging.

Southern Baptist?

Btw - more went on with S&G than just the gaydom. Drinking, living it up, etc. Just sayin...

And you're dead wrong on the judging dude. Only 1 can judge in that manner (in regards to sin and what will happen to someone as a result). Although some organized religion denominations feel it their duty even though it's not.

[Ogre]

And spare me the Greek translations of "slaves" and what he really meant.  That was just something that was just as acceptable in those times as stoning someone to death for adultery.

You can't spare the original translation.  You have to read the Bible in the context it was written.  In the days of Paul, people could willingly sell themselves into "slavery" as a bondservant (i.e. - the Engilsh Standard Version you quoted).  That meant they would be in debt so high that they couldn't pay it all off, so they would work for someone as their "bondservant" until the debt was paid in full.  It's not quite the same as sailing Africans over to Rome and selling them off as subhuman.  Slavery in those days wasn't based on race, it was based on economics. 

I've been studying the Bible for almost 4 years now.  I've read it from cover-to-cover 3 times and am on my 4th.  The more I read it the more I understand it.  You can't read a passage like that out of Ephesians and think it applies to 1800's America.  The two just don't compute.

One of the over-arching messages of Christianity (and the Bible) is that we are all slaves to sin.  The only place freedom can truly be found is in Jesus Christ. 

[AUTiger1]

So how does everyone feel about a non married straight couple shacking up?  Does it bother you as much as two dudes shacking up?  It must, since a sin is a sin, correct?  Those that do that are taking just a big of shit on the sanctity of marriage that you want to hold so dear.  Why not make a law against cohabitation?  I think we should.  It will stop them from sinning if we legislate peoples morality. 

[RWS]

You've suffered brain damage in your absence. 

Segregation = man-made situation.  No biblical basis. 

If we took everything the Bible said as law, word-for-word, then the current world would be a pretty messed up place.  Let's be honest, the Bible in it's entirety is not applicable to how the world has evolved.  Our laws should not be 100% based on only the Bible.  Common sense has to (and does in most instances) factor in.

Legalize sin?  Might as well condone all the rest, too.  Let's make murder legal.  There are biblically based laws against that. Obviously those are old and out of date in today's progressive society.  Make it legal and I'll go on a killing spree tomorrow.

You're taking an all or none approach to it just for argument sake.  Obviously outlawing murder is in the interest of public order.  There are things that make good sense outside of the framework of the Bible.  I'm not sure how allowing same-sex marriages would threaten public order.  Sometimes laws should evolve with time and civilization.  It's no longer legal to walk around naked in public, for example. 

[AUTiger1]

And we have 6 more weeks of this until spring practice starts.  Yea!

[War Eagle!!!]

If the bible is not true, then no sin exists and we are all good. You may as well wait on the mother wheel to pick you up. There are too many things in the Bible that are connected throughout its writings to be conjured up by man. You cannot get two men to agree on anything, yet, you want to think that many men throughout history have agreed to keep the flow of the whole thing? Like I said, faith. If the guide book is wrong, then so is the premise of God.

And in keeping with that, I have to believe that what God says is sin, remains sin. We cannot rewrite what has been written to allow for our lifestyles. And there are many perverse lifestyles out there that people give in to their desires. Most of us look at those and think poorly of it. Why is it now that one of those lifestyles is being accepted and not all of the others.

I never said that the bible isn't true.

I never said that the bible is only partially true.

I said that the bible was written by man, and some men may not have their hearts in the right place. And because of that, how I am I supposed to tell a dude that may honestly be attracted to and love another dude as we would a woman, that he is sinning.

I don't understand it. I wouldn't do it and quite honestly can't even remotely imagine being intimate with another guy...but what if they were born like that? What if they truly love another guy like you love your wife. What is so fucking wrong with that? What if they love Jesus and worship him every day, they just love another man. Who are you to say that it is wrong? Who are you to say they weren't born that way if they truly feel that they were?

I am just not comfortable saying that gay people shouldn't be this way or that way because I don't know. I guess it just basically boils down to that I personally believe that true gay people are born that way. Not the Bi-Sexuals that want to have sex with everyone, but those that truly love members of their own sex as you would love your wife. And if I believe that they were born that way, how can I believe that God would cast them away since he created them like that?

[Snaggletiger]

You can't spare the original translation.  You have to read the Bible in the context it was written.  In the days of Paul, people could willingly sell themselves into "slavery" as a bondservant (i.e. - the Engilsh Standard Version you quoted).  That meant they would be in debt so high that they couldn't pay it all off, so they would work for someone as their "bondservant" until the debt was paid in full.  It's not quite the same as sailing Africans over to Rome and selling them off as subhuman.  Slavery in those days wasn't based on race, it was based on economics. 

I've been studying the Bible for almost 4 years now.  I've read it from cover-to-cover 3 times and am on my 4th.  The more I read it the more I understand it.  You can't read a passage like that out of Ephesians and think it applies to 1800's America.  The two just don't compute.

One of the over-arching messages of Christianity (and the Bible) is that we are all slaves to sin.  The only place freedom can truly be found is in Jesus Christ.

Bingo.  Exactly what I've been saying.  And there was waaayyy more to slavery in that time than just being a bondservant and paying off a debt.  But even in that example, you're saying it's okay to instruct someone to be obedient to your earthly master with fear and trembling?  Those were Paul's Holy Spirit led instructions. 

[War Eagle!!!]

Those were Paul's Holy Spirit led instructions.

You faithless bastard.

[CCTAU]

I am just not comfortable saying that gay people shouldn't be this way or that way because I don't know. I guess it just basically boils down to that I personally believe that true gay people are born that way. Not the Bi-Sexuals that want to have sex with everyone, but those that truly love members of their own sex as you would love your wife. And if I believe that they were born that way, how can I believe that God would cast them away since he created them like that?

I do not believe it is genetic. There are many other choices that people make that are not genetic. The human mind is tempted with all sorts of thoughts and opportunities that might bring the mind pleasure. Just because I do not see homosexuality as a stimulating course to take, does not mean others do not. We all have thoughts enter our minds at one time or the other, but we do not act on these thoughts. Some people are always searching for that one thing to fulfill them. They do act on those thoughts.

The problem with saying that it is genetic without proof, is that now we can claim just about anything goes, because "I feel" it!

And I truly am alarmed at the number of supposedly believers that seem to think it is OK to rewrite the word of God.

Yes, only one can judge. But you have a skewed definition of judging. If someone points to me and says, "That is not biblical and you might need to stop", they did not judge me. They called me out to be accountable for my actions according to the word. That is not judging. You have bought into  the left's lies.

[War Eagle!!!]

I do not believe it is genetic. There are many other choices that people make that are not genetic. The human mind is tempted with all sorts of thoughts and opportunities that might bring the mind pleasure. Just because I do not see homosexuality as a stimulating course to take, does not mean others do not. We all have thoughts enter our minds at one time or the other, but we do not act on these thoughts. Some people are always searching for that one thing to fulfill them. They do act on those thoughts.

The problem with saying that it is genetic without proof, is that now we can claim just about anything goes, because "I feel" it!

And I truly am alarmed at the number of supposedly believers that seem to think it is OK to rewrite the word of God.

Yes, only one can judge. But you have a skewed definition of judging. If someone points to me and says, "That is not biblical and you might need to stop", they did not judge me. They called me out to be accountable for my actions according to the word. That is not judging. You have bought into  the left's lies.

Do you think you know everything about the human body or genetics? Are you comfortable saying that you have enough knowledge about scientific DNA that you are 100% comfortable telling someone that what they feel is only a choice?

Because that is fucking dumb...

[CCTAU]

Do you think you know everything about the human body or genetics? Are you comfortable saying that you have enough knowledge about scientific DNA that you are 100% comfortable telling someone that what they feel is only a choice?

Because that is fucking dumb...

That's an interesting thought process. Because you think it is genetic, that should be given more credence....

[War Eagle!!!]

That's an interesting thought process. Because you think it is genetic, that should be given more credence....

I said I don't know. I am not comfortable telling someone that truly thinks they are attracted to someone of the same sex as I am my wife, that they are wrong. It just doesn't seem right.