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Mike Brown: Trayvon Part 2

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Re: Mike Brown: Trayvon Part 2
« Reply #100 on: August 18, 2014, 06:28:00 PM »
Not saying its evidence. But I am saying he was apparently capable of it since there was a precedent. Thats all. Which is the total opposite picture that was being painted last week - that there was NO WAY Brown could have assaulted someone. Well, yes there is. Because he has.
Yes but that was like 12 minutes before this particular incident took place. You shouldn't hold the man's past against him for that one little strong armed robbery incident. And, Brown is black. The cop that shot him is white. That's all that matters.
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Vandy Vol

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Re: Mike Brown: Trayvon Part 2
« Reply #101 on: August 18, 2014, 06:42:43 PM »
But he was doing more than just making fun much like most of the media has been doing.  He was trying to sway public opinion.

Not sure if that was his intent or not.  He literally posted a clip of the mayor claiming that race relations were never an issue, and then proceeds to post clips of previous race relations issues.  Swaying public opinion on whether there is a race issue in Ferguson, yes, I can see that, but I don't see him trying to sway public opinion about whether the cops were in the wrong in relation to this specific incident.

Maybe people will interpret it that way, but to quote him from the very beginning of the segment, "there are so many unanswered questions regarding why an officer would shoot an unarmed teenager."


Without that video, the media was going full on with the innocent, little, sweet teenager going out for milk and cookies angle.

Doesn't matter whether he's a sweet little teenager or a mean ass kid.  You still go by the facts related to this incident, not other unrelated incidents.  A mean ass kid should be afforded the same protections as a sweet little teenager based upon their actions, not based upon their character.  Unless, of course, you're suggesting that a straight A student with no criminal record or violent history should be given a free pass when he gets a wild hair and decides to try to steal a cop's gun.

I understand that the media is playing the angel vs. devil game, but in the grand scheme of things, that should not happen, as it does not matter, and both sides do nothing but prematurely sway the opinion of potential jurors.


That makes more sense but then it also makes the video of the robbery relevant to the case.  Instead of brushing off - like John Oliver did - it should be a main point of conversation.  We now have evidence that his state of mind could have been altered and may have influenced his ability to interact with a police officer making a routine request to not walk in the middle of a roadway.  Does his propensity to robbing convenience stores and choking store clerks matter to this case?  No.  Does the fact that he had just minutes prior committed a crime matter to this case?  Definitely.

Look at when and how the police released the video.  No one asked for the video of the robbery, and no one was raising questions about Brown's state of mind.  John Oliver was spot on:  it was released in an attempt to sway public opinion about Brown and the officer's actions in this instance.

Had the police wanted to discuss Brown's state of mind, then that's a question that is for the court to decide.  By releasing a video that has nothing to directly do with this incident, they've already tainted (cue the giggles) potential jurors.  It should have been left up to a court to determine whether such evidence should be considered in light of this particular incident, but the police took it upon themselves to publish the video for their own purposes.  Although Oliver may be incorrect to dismiss it as completely irrelevant, it is actually irrelevant at this point in time, as no court is addressing Brown's state of mind.
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Vandy Vol

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Re: Mike Brown: Trayvon Part 2
« Reply #102 on: August 18, 2014, 06:50:43 PM »
Not saying its evidence. But I am saying he was apparently capable of it since there was a precedent. Thats all. Which is the total opposite picture that was being painted last week - that there was NO WAY Brown could have assaulted someone. Well, yes there is. Because he has.

Guess I should have actually replied to AUTR, but effectively there were a couple of posts from THS and AUTR which appeared to be asking for clarification on why the robbery could not be used to show a propensity to act in a certain manner, but could be used to show state of mind.

I agree that the media continues to dig into the victim's background to try to show the character of a person, but from a legal perspective, it doesn't matter.  And from a practical perspective, it also shouldn't matter.  People can scream about thug mentality and how we should just kill them all any time they appear to be in the wrong, but as I've stated before, criminals still have rights.  You have to prove that they were guilty of the crime they're charged with; you don't just assume they're guilty based on previous acts.  The media does a lot of things wrong, and this is one of them.

And that goes both ways, including assuming that the killer is in the wrong because he is white and the victim is black.
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Re: Mike Brown: Trayvon Part 2
« Reply #103 on: August 18, 2014, 07:41:18 PM »
The only thing I would like to interject about your informative discussion on court room procedure is this: this won't be a normal case, it will be a use of force case. In general until sentencing prior acts are hard to enter into evidence, but because it's use of force any and all background information can be used if it was known to the officer at the time of the shooting. Use of force is judged using the "totality of circumstances" doctrine. All facts and circumstance as they appear to the officer at the exact second he decides to use force are considered. This means if a cop knows a guy is the meanest sumbitch around, or he knows he's prone to violent action or he knows he just committed X violent crime  then that knowledge is legally considered when it comes to use of force. I'm not saying he knows the guy or whatever, but I am clarifying that facts known to officers are absolutely considered in court.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 07:45:52 PM by smooth_operator »
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Vandy Vol

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Re: Mike Brown: Trayvon Part 2
« Reply #104 on: August 18, 2014, 07:55:36 PM »
The only thing I would like to interject about your informative discussion on court room procedure is this:
Any and all background information can be used if it was known to the officer at the time of the shooting. Use of force is judged using the "totality of circumstances" doctrine. All facts and circumstance as they appear to the officer at the exact second he decides to use force are considered. This means if a cop knows a guy is the meanest sumbitch around, or he knows he's prone to violent action or he knows he just committed X violent crime  then that knowledge is legally considered when it comes to use of force. I'm not saying he knows the guy or whatever, but I am clarifying that facts known to officers are absolutely considered in court.

It can come in to show the police officer's state of mind, but it can also still be excluded if its prejudicial effect is greater than its probative value.

For instance, if the officer is merely stating that he knows that the defendant is prone to violent behavior based on his previous convictions, then there is likely going to be an objection, and that objection is likely to be sustained.  You can't bring in evidence of a prior act to paint a picture of the defendant's character.

But if the officer is stating that he was aware of the defendant's previous convictions and that this affected his state of mind as to how he approached the defendant, that's generally admissible.  However, if there's other evidence which shows that the defendant was never aggressive, never provoked the officer, and was completely compliant with the officer's requests, then the officer will not be allowed to testify as to the prior acts of the defendant.  This is because those prior acts would be purely prejudicial, as there's enough other evidence to determine whether the use of force was proper in this particular instance when the defendant was not acting "in accordance" with his perceived character as defined by prior acts.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 07:57:22 PM by Vandy Vol »
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Re: Mike Brown: Trayvon Part 2
« Reply #105 on: August 18, 2014, 08:32:41 PM »
It can come in to show the police officer's state of mind, but it can also still be excluded if its prejudicial effect is greater than its probative value.

For instance, if the officer is merely stating that he knows that the defendant is prone to violent behavior based on his previous convictions, then there is likely going to be an objection, and that objection is likely to be sustained.  You can't bring in evidence of a prior act to paint a picture of the defendant's character.

But if the officer is stating that he was aware of the defendant's previous convictions and that this affected his state of mind as to how he approached the defendant, that's generally admissible.  However, if there's other evidence which shows that the defendant was never aggressive, never provoked the officer, and was completely compliant with the officer's requests, then the officer will not be allowed to testify as to the prior acts of the defendant.  This is because those prior acts would be purely prejudicial, as there's enough other evidence to determine whether the use of force was proper in this particular instance when the defendant was not acting "in accordance" with his perceived character as defined by prior acts.
UofF determination is not the same as a normal trial.  In a use of force trial every single fact and circumstance known to the officer at the time is considered. In determining the reasonableness of that officers use of force the officer is, in essence, the defendant. Whether or not the person seized is guilty is immaterial in determining the reasonableness of the officers use of force as long as the officer had probable cause to make the arrest or seizure. Graham v Connor set the standard which has been expanded upon from time to time but not changed. Again, the reasonableness of the use of force has nothing to do with the guilt of the suspect

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=490&invol=386
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Re: Mike Brown: Trayvon Part 2
« Reply #106 on: August 18, 2014, 08:35:47 PM »


This guy gets caught up in political name calling but makes some decent points
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Vandy Vol

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Re: Mike Brown: Trayvon Part 2
« Reply #107 on: August 18, 2014, 10:56:12 PM »
UofF determination is not the same as a normal trial.

If the question is being determined by a judicial court, then the rules of evidence apply.  There aren't separate rules of evidence for different types of trials.  Well, actually, I think 404(a) doesn't apply to civil trials, but 404(b) does apply to civil trials, and because we're talking about a prior act that consists of a crime, 404(b) is the applicable rule of evidence.

The officer's state of mind is certainly one of those exceptions, but again, the court will also have to weigh the evidence's probative value against its prejudicial effect pursuant to rule 403.  It's not automatically admissible just because it goes to show the officer's state of mind and what was known when he used excessive force.


In a use of force trial every single fact and circumstance known to the officer at the time is considered. In determining the reasonableness of that officers use of force the officer is, in essence, the defendant. Whether or not the person seized is guilty is immaterial in determining the reasonableness of the officers use of force as long as the officer had probable cause to make the arrest or seizure. Graham v Connor set the standard which has been expanded upon from time to time but not changed. Again, the reasonableness of the use of force has nothing to do with the guilt of the suspect

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=490&invol=386

I don't see how that case applies to this discussion.  The officer witnessed the guy acting suspiciously when he ran out of the store, and so he followed the car after they left and then proceeded to stop the car for investigatory purposes.  The fact that the suspect was seen fleeing from the store is not a "prior act;" it is the act for which the officer was conducting the investigative stop.

In fact, no where in the opinion is rule 404 even mentioned, so this was not an evidentiary issue that the court addressed in the opinion you cited.



I can't seem to find a case on point that addresses the officer's knowledge; most of these excessive force claims hinge upon the suspect trying to bring in prior acts of the officer that relate to previous use of excessive force.  Regardless, as you can see with the following case, rule 404(b) is still applied to use of force determinations, so your suggestion that a use of force determination is "not the same as a normal trial" is incorrect:

https://casetext.com/case/palmer-v-nassan#.U_LCV6O_6Bc


Now, one thing to point out is that these are the federal rules of evidence to which I'm referring.  Although most states do follow the federal rules, there can be some variations.  I'm not aware of Missouri's specific version of 404(b), but I am assuming it's similar enough that there shouldn't be any difference in how it's applied.
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Re: Mike Brown: Trayvon Part 2
« Reply #108 on: August 18, 2014, 11:19:36 PM »
The graham case applies because it is the standard upon which all use of force cases are weighed. In that case they did not specifically cite prior knowledge but the court created the "totality of circumstance" doctrine which has been expanded upon nearly every way you can imagine . As you said, I don't know what MO specifically does during those trials, but SCOTUS set that standard for use of force determinations.

From your beloved fletc training
https://www.fletc.gov/training/programs/legal-division/podcasts/hot-issues-podcasts/hot-issues-transcripts/use-of-force-myths-and-realities-part-i-podcast-transcript.html
"The court should consider the facts the officer was aware of at the time he or she applied force"
" In Graham the court specifically mentioned things such as the severity of the crime, whether the suspect posed a threat, an immediate threat to the safety of the officer or others, whether the suspect was actively resisting arrest or attempting to evade arrest by flight. Those are all important factors to determine reasonableness of Use of Force. There are other factors too. The court will also consider whether the suspect has a known violent history, the physical size, age and condition of the suspect, the type of crime involved; things such as that"

I wasn't trying to apply any of that to this case specifically, with all the conflicting reports none of us know what that officer knew or didn't know when he pressed the trigger, I was just pointing out that in use of force cases, if an officer knows about the suspect's prior acts, it is admissible because it is contained within the "totality". Your argument that the prior acts would be objected to because they might prejudice the jury against the defendant, in this case, don't really fit because he will not be on trial at all, he is deceased.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 11:25:00 PM by smooth_operator »
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Vandy Vol

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Re: Mike Brown: Trayvon Part 2
« Reply #109 on: August 18, 2014, 11:37:39 PM »
The graham case applies because it is the standard upon which all use of force cases are weighed. In that case they did not specifically cite prior knowledge but the court created the "totality of circumstance" doctrine which has been expanded upon nearly every way you can imagine . As you said, I don't know what MO specifically does during those trials, but SCOTUS set that standard for use of force determinations.

It's certainly something to consider; I'm not arguing with that.  However, if you've got a case where there is evidence that the suspect was docile and cooperated with commands, yet the officer used excessive force, you're not going to find a judge that is going to allow the suspect's prior violent acts in as evidence.  The suspect's prior violent acts is something that the officer can take into account, yes, and that may affect his state of mind, yes, but it is only one of the many factors that the officer is required to take into account when deciding what amount of force to use.

Otherwise, you're effectively stating that a suspect that is lying on the ground can be shot by an officer simply because he has a violent record and the officer is aware of that record.  Again, the suspect's record is only one of the many factors that have to be considered, and the officer is expected to make a use of force determination based on all of the facts and circumstances made known to him.


Your argument that the prior acts would be objected to because they might prejudice the jury against the defendant, in this case, don't really fit because he will not be on trial at all, he is deceased.

Regardless of who is considered the defendant or whether the defendant is alive, rule 404(b) still applies.  There is still a legal determination to be made, and the admission of evidence to assist with making that legal determination has to follow the rules of evidence.

*EDIT:  Just as a clarification, I think there is a misinterpretation as to what is meant by "prejudicial."  It's not that rule 404(b) is meant to protect the reputation of the defendant, and thus that if a defendant is dead, then their reputation is no longer a concern.  Rather, it's meant to prevent the jury from considering irrelevant information and becoming prejudiced or biased against one party based on that irrelevant information.

The presented evidence must have some sort of probative value in relation to the question at hand, and can not be submitted solely to show that one party is a "bad person" and likely to be guilty based on prior acts.  If the prior acts have probative value, such as establishing the officer's state of mind when he decided to use deadly force, then it can be admissible.  But the probative value still has to be weighed against the prejudicial effect pursuant to rule 403.  It's not automatically admissible just because it was a fact known to the officer at the time.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 11:51:05 PM by Vandy Vol »
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Re: Mike Brown: Trayvon Part 2
« Reply #110 on: August 18, 2014, 11:53:56 PM »
It's certainly something to consider; I'm not arguing with that.  However, if you've got a case where there is evidence that the suspect was docile and cooperated with commands, yet the officer used excessive force, you're not going to find a judge that is going to allow the suspect's prior violent acts in as evidence.  The suspect's prior violent acts is something that the officer can take into account, yes, and that may affect his state of mind, yes, but it is only one of the many factors that the officer is required to take into account when deciding what amount of force to use.

Otherwise, you're effectively stating that a suspect that is lying on the ground can be shot by an officer simply because he has a violent record and the officer is aware of that record.  Again, the suspect's record is only one of the many factors that have to be considered, and the officer is expected to make a use of force determination based on all of the facts and circumstances made known to him.


Regardless of who is considered the defendant or whether the defendant is alive, rule 404(b) still applies.  There is still a legal determination to be made, and the admission of evidence to assist with making that legal determination has to follow the rules of evidence.

The legal determination to be made is whether or not that use of force was legal. Not whether or not the deceased was guilty of a crime. The rules for determining that legal use of force are the ones listed above. SCOTUS took the time out of their busy day to tell the courts exactly how that determination is made and the modern interpretation of that ruling includes all facts known to the officer, historical data included. They are not saying, as you suggested, that all force is justified when the suspect has been previously violent, only that a reasonable officer reacts differently to someone he or she knows is violent. Surely you can see the wisdom in that.

Again, understand that I am not arguing for one side of THIS case or the other. I'm only pointing out the legal standard for ruling on use of force. I don't know who did what in reference to the shooting all I know is too much wrong has been done since.
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The Prowler

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Re: Mike Brown: Trayvon Part 2
« Reply #111 on: August 19, 2014, 12:55:38 AM »
Not sure if that was his intent or not.  He literally posted a clip of the mayor claiming that race relations were never an issue, and then proceeds to post clips of previous race relations issues.  Swaying public opinion on whether there is a race issue in Ferguson, yes, I can see that, but I don't see him trying to sway public opinion about whether the cops were in the wrong in relation to this specific incident.

Maybe people will interpret it that way, but to quote him from the very beginning of the segment, "there are so many unanswered questions regarding why an officer would shoot an unarmed teenager."


Doesn't matter whether he's a sweet little teenager or a mean ass kid.  You still go by the facts related to this incident, not other unrelated incidents.  A mean ass kid should be afforded the same protections as a sweet little teenager based upon their actions, not based upon their character.  Unless, of course, you're suggesting that a straight A student with no criminal record or violent history should be given a free pass when he gets a wild hair and decides to try to steal a cop's gun.

I understand that the media is playing the angel vs. devil game, but in the grand scheme of things, that should not happen, as it does not matter, and both sides do nothing but prematurely sway the opinion of potential jurors.


Look at when and how the police released the video.  No one asked for the video of the robbery, and no one was raising questions about Brown's state of mind.  John Oliver was spot on:  it was released in an attempt to sway public opinion about Brown and the officer's actions in this instance.

Had the police wanted to discuss Brown's state of mind, then that's a question that is for the court to decide.  By releasing a video that has nothing to directly do with this incident, they've already tainted (cue the giggles) potential jurors.  It should have been left up to a court to determine whether such evidence should be considered in light of this particular incident, but the police took it upon themselves to publish the video for their own purposes.  Although Oliver may be incorrect to dismiss it as completely irrelevant, it is actually irrelevant at this point in time, as no court is addressing Brown's state of mind.

Guess I should have actually replied to AUTR, but effectively there were a couple of posts from THS and AUTR which appeared to be asking for clarification on why the robbery could not be used to show a propensity to act in a certain manner, but could be used to show state of mind.

I agree that the media continues to dig into the victim's background to try to show the character of a person, but from a legal perspective, it doesn't matter.  And from a practical perspective, it also shouldn't matter.  People can scream about thug mentality and how we should just kill them all any time they appear to be in the wrong, but as I've stated before, criminals still have rights.  You have to prove that they were guilty of the crime they're charged with; you don't just assume they're guilty based on previous acts.  The media does a lot of things wrong, and this is one of them.

And that goes both ways, including assuming that the killer is in the wrong because he is white and the victim is black.

The only thing I would like to interject about your informative discussion on court room procedure is this: this won't be a normal case, it will be a use of force case. In general until sentencing prior acts are hard to enter into evidence, but because it's use of force any and all background information can be used if it was known to the officer at the time of the shooting. Use of force is judged using the "totality of circumstances" doctrine. All facts and circumstance as they appear to the officer at the exact second he decides to use force are considered. This means if a cop knows a guy is the meanest sumbitch around, or he knows he's prone to violent action or he knows he just committed X violent crime  then that knowledge is legally considered when it comes to use of force. I'm not saying he knows the guy or whatever, but I am clarifying that facts known to officers are absolutely considered in court.

It can come in to show the police officer's state of mind, but it can also still be excluded if its prejudicial effect is greater than its probative value.

For instance, if the officer is merely stating that he knows that the defendant is prone to violent behavior based on his previous convictions, then there is likely going to be an objection, and that objection is likely to be sustained.  You can't bring in evidence of a prior act to paint a picture of the defendant's character.

But if the officer is stating that he was aware of the defendant's previous convictions and that this affected his state of mind as to how he approached the defendant, that's generally admissible.  However, if there's other evidence which shows that the defendant was never aggressive, never provoked the officer, and was completely compliant with the officer's requests, then the officer will not be allowed to testify as to the prior acts of the defendant.  This is because those prior acts would be purely prejudicial, as there's enough other evidence to determine whether the use of force was proper in this particular instance when the defendant was not acting "in accordance" with his perceived character as defined by prior acts.

UofF determination is not the same as a normal trial.  In a use of force trial every single fact and circumstance known to the officer at the time is considered. In determining the reasonableness of that officers use of force the officer is, in essence, the defendant. Whether or not the person seized is guilty is immaterial in determining the reasonableness of the officers use of force as long as the officer had probable cause to make the arrest or seizure. Graham v Connor set the standard which has been expanded upon from time to time but not changed. Again, the reasonableness of the use of force has nothing to do with the guilt of the suspect

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=490&invol=386



This guy gets caught up in political name calling but makes some decent points

If the question is being determined by a judicial court, then the rules of evidence apply.  There aren't separate rules of evidence for different types of trials.  Well, actually, I think 404(a) doesn't apply to civil trials, but 404(b) does apply to civil trials, and because we're talking about a prior act that consists of a crime, 404(b) is the applicable rule of evidence.

The officer's state of mind is certainly one of those exceptions, but again, the court will also have to weigh the evidence's probative value against its prejudicial effect pursuant to rule 403.  It's not automatically admissible just because it goes to show the officer's state of mind and what was known when he used excessive force.


I don't see how that case applies to this discussion.  The officer witnessed the guy acting suspiciously when he ran out of the store, and so he followed the car after they left and then proceeded to stop the car for investigatory purposes.  The fact that the suspect was seen fleeing from the store is not a "prior act;" it is the act for which the officer was conducting the investigative stop.

In fact, no where in the opinion is rule 404 even mentioned, so this was not an evidentiary issue that the court addressed in the opinion you cited.



I can't seem to find a case on point that addresses the officer's knowledge; most of these excessive force claims hinge upon the suspect trying to bring in prior acts of the officer that relate to previous use of excessive force.  Regardless, as you can see with the following case, rule 404(b) is still applied to use of force determinations, so your suggestion that a use of force determination is "not the same as a normal trial" is incorrect:

https://casetext.com/case/palmer-v-nassan#.U_LCV6O_6Bc


Now, one thing to point out is that these are the federal rules of evidence to which I'm referring.  Although most states do follow the federal rules, there can be some variations.  I'm not aware of Missouri's specific version of 404(b), but I am assuming it's similar enough that there shouldn't be any difference in how it's applied.

The graham case applies because it is the standard upon which all use of force cases are weighed. In that case they did not specifically cite prior knowledge but the court created the "totality of circumstance" doctrine which has been expanded upon nearly every way you can imagine . As you said, I don't know what MO specifically does during those trials, but SCOTUS set that standard for use of force determinations.

From your beloved fletc training
https://www.fletc.gov/training/programs/legal-division/podcasts/hot-issues-podcasts/hot-issues-transcripts/use-of-force-myths-and-realities-part-i-podcast-transcript.html
"The court should consider the facts the officer was aware of at the time he or she applied force"
" In Graham the court specifically mentioned things such as the severity of the crime, whether the suspect posed a threat, an immediate threat to the safety of the officer or others, whether the suspect was actively resisting arrest or attempting to evade arrest by flight. Those are all important factors to determine reasonableness of Use of Force. There are other factors too. The court will also consider whether the suspect has a known violent history, the physical size, age and condition of the suspect, the type of crime involved; things such as that"

I wasn't trying to apply any of that to this case specifically, with all the conflicting reports none of us know what that officer knew or didn't know when he pressed the trigger, I was just pointing out that in use of force cases, if an officer knows about the suspect's prior acts, it is admissible because it is contained within the "totality". Your argument that the prior acts would be objected to because they might prejudice the jury against the defendant, in this case, don't really fit because he will not be on trial at all, he is deceased.

It's certainly something to consider; I'm not arguing with that.  However, if you've got a case where there is evidence that the suspect was docile and cooperated with commands, yet the officer used excessive force, you're not going to find a judge that is going to allow the suspect's prior violent acts in as evidence.  The suspect's prior violent acts is something that the officer can take into account, yes, and that may affect his state of mind, yes, but it is only one of the many factors that the officer is required to take into account when deciding what amount of force to use.

Otherwise, you're effectively stating that a suspect that is lying on the ground can be shot by an officer simply because he has a violent record and the officer is aware of that record.  Again, the suspect's record is only one of the many factors that have to be considered, and the officer is expected to make a use of force determination based on all of the facts and circumstances made known to him.


Regardless of who is considered the defendant or whether the defendant is alive, rule 404(b) still applies.  There is still a legal determination to be made, and the admission of evidence to assist with making that legal determination has to follow the rules of evidence.

*EDIT:  Just as a clarification, I think there is a misinterpretation as to what is meant by "prejudicial."  It's not that rule 404(b) is meant to protect the reputation of the defendant, and thus that if a defendant is dead, then their reputation is no longer a concern.  Rather, it's meant to prevent the jury from considering irrelevant information and becoming prejudiced or biased against one party based on that irrelevant information.

The presented evidence must have some sort of probative value in relation to the question at hand, and can not be submitted solely to show that one party is a "bad person" and likely to be guilty based on prior acts.  If the prior acts have probative value, such as establishing the officer's state of mind when he decided to use deadly force, then it can be admissible.  But the probative value still has to be weighed against the prejudicial effect pursuant to rule 403.  It's not automatically admissible just because it was a fact known to the officer at the time.

The legal determination to be made is whether or not that use of force was legal. Not whether or not the deceased was guilty of a crime. The rules for determining that legal use of force are the ones listed above. SCOTUS took the time out of their busy day to tell the courts exactly how that determination is made and the modern interpretation of that ruling includes all facts known to the officer, historical data included. They are not saying, as you suggested, that all force is justified when the suspect has been previously violent, only that a reasonable officer reacts differently to someone he or she knows is violent. Surely you can see the wisdom in that.

Again, understand that I am not arguing for one side of THIS case or the other. I'm only pointing out the legal standard for ruling on use of force. I don't know who did what in reference to the shooting all I know is too much wrong has been done since.

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Re: Mike Brown: Trayvon Part 2
« Reply #112 on: August 19, 2014, 01:00:17 AM »
Heads up:  TL; DR.  Apparently you have to make people on this board aware of this, or otherwise they start crying about having to read.  Feel free to ignore this if you don't want to read anything lengthy...I'm just partaking in a discussion that you're free to exclude yourself from at any time.


The legal determination to be made is whether or not that use of force was legal. Not whether or not the deceased was guilty of a crime. The rules for determining that legal use of force are the ones listed above. SCOTUS took the time out of their busy day to tell the courts exactly how that determination is made and the modern interpretation of that ruling includes all facts known to the officer, historical data included. They are not saying, as you suggested, that all force is justified when the suspect has been previously violent, only that a reasonable officer reacts differently to someone he or she knows is violent. Surely you can see the wisdom in that.

Yes, I do understand that. But just because a court lists out the factors that an officer can and should consider does not mean that each and every factor he considered will be admitted into evidence.

For instance, let's assume that a police officer approaches a suspect.  He's aware that the suspect has a violent history.  He tells the suspect to get down on the ground.  The suspect does so.  He tells the suspect to put his hands behind his head.  The suspect does so.  The officer then fires a round into the suspect's head, killing him.

The family of the deceased brings, among many other claims, a Section 1983 claim for use of excessive force under federal law.  The officer's attorney wants to bring in evidence of the suspect's prior violent acts as evidence.

What is the probative value of this evidence in light of all of the other evidence?  Nothing.  Although criminal history is one factor that the officer can and should consider, there are other factors, and in light of all of the other factors, the criminal history should not have led the officer to decide to use deadly force.  As such, allowing the criminal history as evidence would offer nothing probative, and would only serve to try to prejudice the jury against the suspect.

That is a hyperbolic example, but there would certainly be gray areas in which a judge could reasonably refuse to admit the criminal history as its prejudicial effect would outweigh the probative value in light of all of the other available evidence.




I finally found a case that directly addresses the issue of an officer's knowledge of the suspect's criminal history and how this is treated under rules 404(b) and 403:

http://www.paed.uscourts.gov/documents/opinions/13d0456p.pdf

Quote
Defendants respond that Diaz’s history of violence is relevant because in an excessive force case a jury must “consider the Defendants’ subjective state of mind and knowledge at the time of the incident” which includes “all the relevant facts and circumstances that [the defendants] reasonably believed to be true at the time of the encounter."

. . .

To address this motion I must assess: 1) whether Diaz’s past criminal convictions are relevant to his claims against the defendants; 2) whether evidence of Diaz’s past criminal convictions is admissible as probative of the defendants knowledge and state of mind (or for some other purpose not barred by rule 404) on May 14, 2010

. . .

As above, I find that “if the [defendants] were aware of [Diaz’s] prior criminal conduct or discipline while incarcerated . . . and this information formed a basis to evaluate the level of threat posed by [Diaz] (emphasis added by VV), knowledge of such history would be relevant to the inquiry as to whether the force used against [Diaz] was reasonable under the circumstances.” Smith v. City of Phila., 2009 WL 3353148, at *2. Thus I proceed to the next prong of my inquiry.

. . .

As above, the admissibility of a party’s crimes, wrongs or other acts is governed by Federal Rule of Evidence 404. Evidence of a person’s character or character trait is not admissible to prove that on a particular occasion the person acted in accordance with the character or trait. Fed. R. Evid. 404(a).

. . .

However, this evidence may be admissible for another purpose, such as proving motive, opportunity, intent, preparation, plan, knowledge, identity, absence of mistake, or lack of accident. Fed. R. Evid. 404(b)(2). For other acts evidence to be admissible under the exceptions listed in Rule 404(b), (1) the evidence must have a proper purpose; (2) it must be relevant under Rule 401 and 402; (3) its probative value must outweigh its prejudicial effect under Rule 403; and (4) the court must charge the jury to consider the evidence only for the limited purpose for which it was admitted. Ansell v. Green Acres Contracting Co., Inc., 347 F.3d 515, 520 (3d Cir. 2003).

. . .

In order to determine whether defendants had knowledge of these convictions prior to the incident and whether this knowledge informed their actions on that day (emphasis added by VV), I will again look to the deposition testimony submitted by defendants.

Several things to note about this case:

1.)  The court walks through the 404(b) and 403 rules just as I've stated they should.  Just because it has been stated that an officer can and should take into consideration the history of the suspect/defendant, it does not mean that this history will automatically be admitted into evidence.  The rules of evidence have to be followed.

2.)  The officers did not know the exact nature of the convictions for which the alleged victim was serving time, and thus the court found that those convictions could not have affected the officers' state of mind in determining the amount of force to use.  I point this out because, unfortunately, this resulted in the court not advancing to the third prong of its test, which was to evaluate the probative value of the evidence in comparison to its prejudicial effect, as required by rule 403.  As such, I still don't have a clear example of a court addressing this prong, but at least it is clear that this still has to be considered in use of force determinations.  Again, the victim's history is not just automatically admitted simply because the officer was aware of it.

3.) As is stated by the court, the criminal history must be used as a basis to evaluate the level of threat posed by the alleged victim.  Similarly, the court stated that, in order to determine the admissibility of the officer's knowledge of prior acts, it must make a determination as to whether that knowledge informed the officers' actions.  As is seen with my example above, there are instances in which the criminal history of the alleged victim, although known by the officer, should not play a part in evaluating the level of threat or otherwise informing the officers' actions.  In those instances, the criminal history should not be introduced as evidence, as it would be introduced solely to prejudice the jury against the alleged victim.


Again, understand that I am not arguing for one side of THIS case or the other. I'm only pointing out the legal standard for ruling on use of force. I don't know who did what in reference to the shooting all I know is too much wrong has been done since.

Same here.  Not claiming to know what did or didn't occur in this instance, but instead am just trying to point out how rules 404 and 403 play into whether his criminal history is admitted.  It's not as simple as stating that the officer knew of the criminal history, and thus it's admissible.  You must show that the knowledge was used to evaluate the level of the threat and how to respond.  If there is other evidence that shows that the criminal history is irrelevant (such as the fact that the victim cooperated and never posed a threat), then the criminal history is prejudicial, not probative, and can't be admitted.
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Re: Mike Brown: Trayvon Part 2
« Reply #113 on: August 19, 2014, 03:15:52 AM »
Jesus in a baby carriage. 

Ya'll nattering fucks make me want to riot.  I'm not reading any of that ridiculous shit. 
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Re: Mike Brown: Trayvon Part 2
« Reply #114 on: August 19, 2014, 05:31:30 AM »
Jesus in a baby carriage. 

Ya'll nattering fucks make me want to riot.  I'm not reading any of that ridiculous shit.
While we're rioting, lets meet at Best Buy and do some looting...gonna get one of 'em Big Ass TVs.
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Re: Mike Brown: Trayvon Part 2
« Reply #115 on: August 19, 2014, 05:49:44 AM »
Heads up:  TL; DR.  Apparently you have to make people on this board aware of this, or otherwise they start crying about having to read.  Feel free to ignore this if you don't want to read anything lengthy...I'm just partaking in a discussion that you're free to exclude yourself from at any time.


Yes, I do understand that. But just because a court lists out the factors that an officer can and should consider does not mean that each and every factor he considered will be admitted into evidence.

For instance, let's assume that a police officer approaches a suspect.  He's aware that the suspect has a violent history.  He tells the suspect to get down on the ground.  The suspect does so.  He tells the suspect to put his hands behind his head.  The suspect does so.  The officer then fires a round into the suspect's head, killing him.

The family of the deceased brings, among many other claims, a Section 1983 claim for use of excessive force under federal law.  The officer's attorney wants to bring in evidence of the suspect's prior violent acts as evidence.

What is the probative value of this evidence in light of all of the other evidence?  Nothing.  Although criminal history is one factor that the officer can and should consider, there are other factors, and in light of all of the other factors, the criminal history should not have led the officer to decide to use deadly force.  As such, allowing the criminal history as evidence would offer nothing probative, and would only serve to try to prejudice the jury against the suspect.

That is a hyperbolic example, but there would certainly be gray areas in which a judge could reasonably refuse to admit the criminal history as its prejudicial effect would outweigh the probative value in light of all of the other available evidence.




I finally found a case that directly addresses the issue of an officer's knowledge of the suspect's criminal history and how this is treated under rules 404(b) and 403:

http://www.paed.uscourts.gov/documents/opinions/13d0456p.pdf

Several things to note about this case:

1.)  The court walks through the 404(b) and 403 rules just as I've stated they should.  Just because it has been stated that an officer can and should take into consideration the history of the suspect/defendant, it does not mean that this history will automatically be admitted into evidence.  The rules of evidence have to be followed.

2.)  The officers did not know the exact nature of the convictions for which the alleged victim was serving time, and thus the court found that those convictions could not have affected the officers' state of mind in determining the amount of force to use.  I point this out because, unfortunately, this resulted in the court not advancing to the third prong of its test, which was to evaluate the probative value of the evidence in comparison to its prejudicial effect, as required by rule 403.  As such, I still don't have a clear example of a court addressing this prong, but at least it is clear that this still has to be considered in use of force determinations.  Again, the victim's history is not just automatically admitted simply because the officer was aware of it.

3.) As is stated by the court, the criminal history must be used as a basis to evaluate the level of threat posed by the alleged victim.  Similarly, the court stated that, in order to determine the admissibility of the officer's knowledge of prior acts, it must make a determination as to whether that knowledge informed the officers' actions.  As is seen with my example above, there are instances in which the criminal history of the alleged victim, although known by the officer, should not play a part in evaluating the level of threat or otherwise informing the officers' actions.  In those instances, the criminal history should not be introduced as evidence, as it would be introduced solely to prejudice the jury against the alleged victim.


Same here.  Not claiming to know what did or didn't occur in this instance, but instead am just trying to point out how rules 404 and 403 play into whether his criminal history is admitted.  It's not as simple as stating that the officer knew of the criminal history, and thus it's admissible.  You must show that the knowledge was used to evaluate the level of the threat and how to respond.  If there is other evidence that shows that the criminal history is irrelevant (such as the fact that the victim cooperated and never posed a threat), then the criminal history is prejudicial, not probative, and can't be admitted.

« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 05:58:03 AM by The Prowler »
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Re: Mike Brown: Trayvon Part 2
« Reply #116 on: August 19, 2014, 08:54:32 AM »
pissing contest...I sees one.  :facepalm:
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Re: Mike Brown: Trayvon Part 2
« Reply #117 on: August 19, 2014, 09:59:47 AM »
Unless I'm misunderstanding (and I might be, I cant read them words good) we don't actually disagree. You're deliberately misconstruing what I said somewhat, and your hyperbolic example is so absurd as to be offensive but the meat of it is there.

If we do disagree I would appreciate it if you notify FLETC as well as all other schools and training academies. 
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totally unreasonable

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Re: Mike Brown: Trayvon Part 2
« Reply #118 on: August 19, 2014, 10:16:11 AM »
Unless I'm misunderstanding (and I might be, I cant read them words good) we don't actually disagree. You're deliberately misconstruing what I said somewhat, and your hyperbolic example is so absurd as to be offensive but the meat of it is there.

If we do disagree I would appreciate it if you notify FLETC as well as all other schools and training academies.

He's OUR VV and he's FABULOUS!

Good to see you are picking up on the format.
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Re: Mike Brown: Trayvon Part 2
« Reply #119 on: August 19, 2014, 10:16:14 AM »
I just skimmed through most of this, but it sounds like smooth is out lawyering the lawyer...
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