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Man Arrested for Gunning Down Cop in No Knock Raid

Re: Man Arrested for Gunning Down Cop in No Knock Raid
« Reply #60 on: June 26, 2014, 03:02:47 PM »
Hell they're killin themselves and each other over there.
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Re: Man Arrested for Gunning Down Cop in No Knock Raid
« Reply #61 on: June 26, 2014, 08:41:38 PM »
Random observations:

1.)  Policies aren't always followed.  I don't know what the facts are in this case because I wasn't standing behind the officer who was shot, but just because the rules dictate what should happen in a no-knock warrant doesn't mean that it happened that way.

2.)  Stating that it's daylight at 5:30AM in June is slightly misleading, considering that the sun rises at approximately 5:40AM in Birmingham in June.  But, oh...wait...this is Killeen, Texas, where the sun rises at 6:30AM local time in June.

3.)  Self defense laws in Texas and the vast majority of states don't require you to identify your target.  Good advice to identify your target?  Sure.  Legally required to identify your target?  No.


It's a sad situation, but there are a lot of assumptions being made about the conditions of the incident, some of which have been shown to be incorrect.  I appreciate what police officers do in their line of work, but it shouldn't just be assumed that they're always in the right.
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Re: Man Arrested for Gunning Down Cop in No Knock Raid
« Reply #62 on: June 26, 2014, 10:23:42 PM »
Random observations:

1.)  Policies aren't always followed.  I don't know what the facts are in this case because I wasn't standing behind the officer who was shot, but just because the rules dictate what should happen in a no-knock warrant doesn't mean that it happened that way.

2.)  Stating that it's daylight at 5:30AM in June is slightly misleading, considering that the sun rises at approximately 5:40AM in Birmingham in June.  But, oh...wait...this is Killeen, Texas, where the sun rises at 6:30AM local time in June.

3.)  Self defense laws in Texas and the vast majority of states don't require you to identify your target.  Good advice to identify your target?  Sure.  Legally required to identify your target?  No.


It's a sad situation, but there are a lot of assumptions being made about the conditions of the incident, some of which have been shown to be incorrect.  I appreciate what police officers do in their line of work, but it shouldn't just be assumed that they're always in the right.

Speaking of incorrect Sunrise is the time in the morning when the sun appears or full daylight arrives, whereas dawn is the first appearance of light in the sky before sunrise and is recognized by the presence of weak sunlight. Again, I wasn't there but I know we aren't allowed to serve search warrants in the dark and I think that's a SCOTUS thing rather than agency policy.

And you're right, none of us were there. With that said not a single fact listed in either article provides one single bit of evidence that the officers that were shot were in the wrong. The fact that a warrant for murder was obtained provides plenty of  evidence they were right.
And you can say that in self defense laws identifying your target isn't a stated requirement BUT many a man had been convicted for not properly identifying the target. Perhaps the law makers of most states simply assume that knowing what you're killing is an obvious criteria.
Anyone can be of the opinion that the laws, policies and constitutional rulings are unfair but to me, a person who has a tracing from the LEO memorial wall of a college friend's name, I can tell you that fair doesn't mean shit when people get killed. The reason I'm offended and the reason I've defended these men so fiercely is until you or someone else can prove I'm wrong they are fallen heros and you being disrespectful to them behind the safety of a message board is offensive, crude and frankly a pussy move. You can armchair quarterback coaching decisions, judges decisions, presidential decisions and policy but none of those men died attempting to preserve the safety, security and peace of our country.
In conclusion, I also agree that you're a smart man, and I agree I take this personally. If evidence is submitted that the shooter was innocently defending his home rather than killing cops I'll admit I was wrong and call it a tragedy rather than murder.
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Re: Man Arrested for Gunning Down Cop in No Knock Raid
« Reply #63 on: June 27, 2014, 07:56:53 AM »
smooth_operator, I love it when you go off for cause.  Token, give him the day off.  He sounds stressed.  The east side will be fine without him for one day.
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Re: Man Arrested for Gunning Down Cop in No Knock Raid
« Reply #64 on: June 27, 2014, 08:43:16 AM »
There are several LEO's out there that will tell you this and that about tactical situations, law, and what not.  I have had the opportunity to work with smooth_operator, and token both.  I KNOW they are 100% right in this case.  The article is geared to the average citizen that knows nothing about about law, and is siding with the government housing resident, that thinks every "cop" is violating their rights.  The underlying facts are unknown to any of us, but to those of us that do this kind of work everyday, we can tell you that those officers were doing their job, and were gunned down by some POS.  Just because drugs were not found means absolutely nothing at all.   They had sufficient evidence to gain a search/arrest warrant.  That alone tells me the guy was selling dope.  As for saving the no knock warrants for "violent offenders", show me someone strung out on, and or selling dope, and I will show you someone that is a potentially "violent offender".  Instead of second guessing the officers involved tactical decisions, we should mourn the loss of life of someone that was willing to put his on the line to protect yours.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 08:47:20 AM by bgreene »
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Re: Man Arrested for Gunning Down Cop in No Knock Raid
« Reply #65 on: June 27, 2014, 10:14:57 AM »
That alone tells me the guy was selling dope.  As for saving the no knock warrants for "violent offenders", show me someone strung out on, and or selling dope, and I will show you someone that is a potentially "violent offender".  Instead of second guessing the officers involved tactical decisions, we should mourn the loss of life of someone that was willing to put his on the line to protect yours.

Who second-guessed the officer? Not me. I do not like no-knock warrants unless the person has proven to be violent. This is not a cop issue, but an administrative one.

We do not have pre-cogs. This is not Minority Report. If we arrested every person on the premise of what they "might" do, we would have some really busy LEOs.

The fact that this officer died performing his duty is a tragedy. The fact that he was put into this situation by his superiors is a travesty. 

I hate seeing officers used as political pawns. And this one reeks of that.


So no drugs were found and we lost another officer. Was there really a good enough reason to get a no-knock and send officers after this guy? That is the question that needs to be asked. It used to be that we hardly ever saw anything about these types of raids. Now we are seeing them used a lot more and the results are interesting to say the least.

My heart breaks for the officer's family and his department.

Everyone is calling the guy that shot him scum (he most likely is). But we have seen here in the ATL that these raids are so easily obtained, that the officers are sent based in incorrect information. They break in and a little old lady is sitting there with her pistol thinking she is being robbed.

This is what we the public are wary about. Make sure the no-knock is warranted. Was it truly warranted in this current case?

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/08/16/georgia.botched.raid/index.html
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Re: Man Arrested for Gunning Down Cop in No Knock Raid
« Reply #66 on: June 27, 2014, 10:27:55 AM »
Hey Lee.  I'm bored today.  Think we have time to get a no knock warrant before lunch? I have a few reparations I'd like to hand out in the bricks.
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Re: Man Arrested for Gunning Down Cop in No Knock Raid
« Reply #67 on: June 27, 2014, 10:30:16 AM »
Hey Lee.  I'm bored today.  Think we have time to get a no knock warrant before lunch? I have a few reparations I'd like to hand out in the bricks.

HAHAHA!!!!
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Re: Man Arrested for Gunning Down Cop in No Knock Raid
« Reply #68 on: June 27, 2014, 10:30:51 AM »
So no drugs were found and we lost another officer. Was there really a good enough reason to get a no-knock and send officers after this guy? That is the question that needs to be asked.

If the guy has a violent past and is also a know dealer or supplier, then yes.  You want to come in with the element of surprise so he doesn't have time to ingest, flush or dispose of the drugs somehow and also when there is drugs there is guns. There is that to consider as well.  Or at least that is how it was explained to me by my LEO buddy yesterday over a doughnut. 
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Re: Man Arrested for Gunning Down Cop in No Knock Raid
« Reply #69 on: June 27, 2014, 10:33:02 AM »
Who second-guessed the officer? Not me. I do not like no-knock warrants unless the person has proven to be violent. This is not a cop issue, but an administrative one.

We do not have pre-cogs. This is not Minority Report. If we arrested every person on the premise of what they "might" do, we would have some really busy LEOs.

The fact that this officer died performing his duty is a tragedy. The fact that he was put into this situation by his superiors is a travesty. 

I hate seeing officers used as political pawns. And this one reeks of that.


So no drugs were found and we lost another officer. Was there really a good enough reason to get a no-knock and send officers after this guy? That is the question that needs to be asked. It used to be that we hardly ever saw anything about these types of raids. Now we are seeing them used a lot more and the results are interesting to say the least.

My heart breaks for the officer's family and his department.

Everyone is calling the guy that shot him scum (he most likely is). But we have seen here in the ATL that these raids are so easily obtained, that the officers are sent based in incorrect information. They break in and a little old lady is sitting there with her pistol thinking she is being robbed.

This is what we the public are wary about. Make sure the no-knock is warranted. Was it truly warranted in this current case?

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/08/16/georgia.botched.raid/index.html

Hey man, preaching to the choir. As someone that actually serves the flippin' things the last thing I want is to get killed or have to kill over something meaningless like a chemical substance. Half the time I think we should legalize everything as long as you sign a healthcare waiver stating you refuse treatment for any ill effects from drugs. Then those predisposed to abuse or flip out on the stuff will die off and we can move on as a society. That said, the purpose of the no-knock warrant (again, doesn't mean sneaking) for drug seizures is to preserve evidence. Otherwise serving a search warrant would be a totally worthless endeavor because the drug dealers/users/manufacturers/enthusiasts would simply saunter to the nearest toilet, flush until they get it all down and open the door. The simple fact is law makers and society in general have evidently determined that they are willing to take some losses in order to appear to be combating the use of drugs. Is it right? Not my call to make. Is there a better way? I think so but I don't get paid enough to make those decisions.
I'm aware of that event you cited there, and it was indeed a tragedy. Heck, the same thing could've happened at the right residence with someone's folks visiting. Lots of bad things can happen, and we do it anyway.
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Re: Man Arrested for Gunning Down Cop in No Knock Raid
« Reply #70 on: June 27, 2014, 11:28:28 AM »


So no drugs were found and we lost another officer. Was there really a good enough reason to get a no-knock and send officers after this guy? That is the question that needs to be asked. It used to be that we hardly ever saw anything about these types of raids. Now we are seeing them used a lot more and the results are interesting to say the least.
 

Everyone is calling the guy that shot him scum (he most likely is). But we have seen here in the ATL that these raids are so easily obtained, that the officers are sent based in incorrect information. They break in and a little old lady is sitting there with her pistol thinking she is being robbed.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/08/16/georgia.botched.raid/index.html

The fact that someone is potientially a violent offender is a very good reason to get a no knock.  If someone has the potential of shooting it out with the cops, then officer saftey is paramount.  The fact that this officer died in the line of duty is tragic, but he just like every SWAT team member across the country knows the risk of the job and they do it anyway.  Just like the dealer knows that there is a strong possibility that the cops are gonna raid his residence with a no knock warrant one day, and yet he still takes the risk.  There are examples of serving warrants gone bad because that's what the media wants you to see.  What you don't see are the countless times it goes off without a hitch, because who cares about that.  You also don't see the times when officers have to go into places like this, and children are there living in filth, and breathing in the crap their so called parents cook or use.  I don't know the circumstances behind the article you have posted, but according to the article several officers are now in prison for their actions, which is more than the dealer would have gotten had he been arrested. 
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Re: Man Arrested for Gunning Down Cop in No Knock Raid
« Reply #71 on: June 27, 2014, 12:37:39 PM »
I do dope all over the great state of Alabama. Ain't no lawman big enough to take me in.
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Re: Man Arrested for Gunning Down Cop in No Knock Raid
« Reply #72 on: June 27, 2014, 12:53:50 PM »
Speaking of incorrect Sunrise is the time in the morning when the sun appears or full daylight arrives, whereas dawn is the first appearance of light in the sky before sunrise and is recognized by the presence of weak sunlight.

Depends on the term you're using, I guess.  I'm not a meteorologist, so I don't know what definition they use, but you can find two different definitions for sunrise.  One is the full daylight definition you reference, and the other is when the upper edge of the sun first appears over the eastern horizon.

However, considering that it takes about 3 minutes for the sun to rise so that it's fully visible after first peeking over the horizon, it could not have been daylight at 5:30AM in Killeen, TX if the sunrise (either definition) does not occur for another hour.


Again, I wasn't there but I know we aren't allowed to serve search warrants in the dark and I think that's a SCOTUS thing rather than agency policy.

Arrest warrants are allowed to be served at any time; only search warrants are limited to daytime.  But there are a couple of things to note here.

The first is that this was a search warrant (at least according to the article), and as mentioned above, it's not daylight in any way at 5:30AM in Killeen, TX.

The second is that the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, a branch of Homeland Security, actually defines "daytime" for search warrants as between 6:00AM and 10:00PM.  So a 5:30AM execution of a search warrant goes against that federal policy, which I would assume applies to local enforcement agencies as well.


And you can say that in self defense laws identifying your target isn't a stated requirement BUT many a man had been convicted for not properly identifying the target. Perhaps the law makers of most states simply assume that knowing what you're killing is an obvious criteria.

Nothing is assumed in law.  It's either codified clearly in the statute, or it has been expounded upon by a court of competent jurisdiction.  If neither of those are present, then a court has a case of first impression, and it must create precedent that expounds upon the statute.  But we never rely upon an assumption that lawmakers meant something that's not in the statute in the slightest.

Aside from that, I'm not aware of any self defense cases in which someone was convicted because they didn't identify their target.  If that was the sole reason for conviction, then they should have appealed and probably would have won on appeal, because self defense laws typically only require that you have a reasonable fear for your life or that a forcible felony will occur.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 12:58:59 PM by Vandy Vol »
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Re: Man Arrested for Gunning Down Cop in No Knock Raid
« Reply #73 on: June 27, 2014, 12:56:41 PM »
I'm glad I don't need a meteorologist to tell me when it's sunrise. You mofos kill me.
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Re: Man Arrested for Gunning Down Cop in No Knock Raid
« Reply #74 on: June 27, 2014, 01:00:06 PM »
I'm glad I don't need a meteorologist to tell me when it's sunrise. You mofos kill me.

I bet you will also know when you get mooned.
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Re: Man Arrested for Gunning Down Cop in No Knock Raid
« Reply #75 on: June 27, 2014, 01:03:13 PM »
I bet you will also know when you get mooned.
You wanna see a black moon?
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Re: Man Arrested for Gunning Down Cop in No Knock Raid
« Reply #76 on: June 27, 2014, 01:04:52 PM »
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Re: Man Arrested for Gunning Down Cop in No Knock Raid
« Reply #77 on: June 27, 2014, 02:15:17 PM »


Man, he did NOT age well since his days with the Oilers.
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Re: Man Arrested for Gunning Down Cop in No Knock Raid
« Reply #78 on: June 27, 2014, 02:17:43 PM »
Man, he did NOT age well since his days with the Oilers.

I can't wait to get black when I get old.
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Re: Man Arrested for Gunning Down Cop in No Knock Raid
« Reply #79 on: June 27, 2014, 02:41:24 PM »
Depends on the term you're using, I guess.  I'm not a meteorologist, so I don't know what definition they use, but you can find two different definitions for sunrise.  One is the full daylight definition you reference, and the other is when the upper edge of the sun first appears over the eastern horizon.

However, considering that it takes about 3 minutes for the sun to rise so that it's fully visible after first peeking over the horizon, it could not have been daylight at 5:30AM in Killeen, TX if the sunrise (either definition) does not occur for another hour.


Arrest warrants are allowed to be served at any time; only search warrants are limited to daytime.  But there are a couple of things to note here.

The first is that this was a search warrant (at least according to the article), and as mentioned above, it's not daylight in any way at 5:30AM in Killeen, TX.

The second is that the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, a branch of Homeland Security, actually defines "daytime" for search warrants as between 6:00AM and 10:00PM.  So a 5:30AM execution of a search warrant goes against that federal policy, which I would assume applies to local enforcement agencies as well.


Nothing is assumed in law.  It's either codified clearly in the statute, or it has been expounded upon by a court of competent jurisdiction.  If neither of those are present, then a court has a case of first impression, and it must create precedent that expounds upon the statute.  But we never rely upon an assumption that lawmakers meant something that's not in the statute in the slightest.

Aside from that, I'm not aware of any self defense cases in which someone was convicted because they didn't identify their target.  If that was the sole reason for conviction, then they should have appealed and probably would have won on appeal, because self defense laws typically only require that you have a reasonable fear for your life or that a forcible felony will occur.

Well if you're right then the entire thing will be thrown out immediately. If the police were conducting an unlawful search the under the fruits of the poisoned tree doctrine any and all evidence obtained is inadmissible, including the dead cop. However, in the spirit of rebuttal:

http://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/usa/dallas
This shows the twilight hours...

actually, know what, fudge it. The cops are guilty of conducting doughnut raids, the guy's innocent. It takes 3 minutes from the time you can see clearly until the sun has fully risen and all LEOs are required to follow FLETC guidelines at all times. According to self defense law you're reasonably in fear for your doughnuts safety if you even see a cop. This arrest is a travesty and I'm totally against it.
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