Question for Wes or other Obama Supporters

[Townhallsavoy]

I'm inclined to believe tht my generation (40 and below) is going to experience a drastic standard of living decrease based on multiple issues including but not limited to:

1. Medicare, which apparently will not be reformed as it is used to obtain votes.
2. Social security
3. Obamacare, which will make it more difficult to find top notch quality for those in the middle class.
4. Medicaid
5. Military spending
6. Tax hikes when the Bush tax cuts expire
7. Increase in fossil fuel prices, which will in turn raise food prices
8. The rich compensating for higher taxes by lowering wages, hours, and raising prices of goods. 
9. A weaker investment market
10. A growing $16 trillion debt

Do you agree?  If so, are you ok with that? If not, what makes you think otherwise?

[GH2001]

Weed, abortions, free birth control and gays - the real issues. I've been saying the last two years that if our economy collapses none of that stuff will even matter. And it won't.

[RWS]

Weed, abortions, free birth control and gays - the real issues.

That's what I think is so sad.  THESE are the "real issues" nowadays.  Not the economy.  Not unemployment.  Not the stuff that makes this country and economy function properly.  No, the issue is who is going to let gays get married.

[wesfau2]

That's what I think is so sad.  THESE are the "real issues" nowadays.  Not the economy.  Not unemployment.  Not the stuff that makes this country and economy function properly.  No, the issue is who is going to let gays get married.

Yeah, those pesky individual liberties and civil rights...

I'm inclined to believe tht my generation (40 and below) is going to experience a drastic standard of living decrease based on multiple issues including but not limited to:

1. Medicare, which apparently will not be reformed as it is used to obtain votes.
2. Social security
3. Obamacare, which will make it more difficult to find top notch quality for those in the middle class.
4. Medicaid
5. Military spending
6. Tax hikes when the Bush tax cuts expire
7. Increase in fossil fuel prices, which will in turn raise food prices
8. The rich compensating for higher taxes by lowering wages, hours, and raising prices of goods. 
9. A weaker investment market
10. A growing $16 trillion debt

Do you agree?  If so, are you ok with that? If not, what makes you think otherwise?

Jesus, that's a lot of hot-button issues with no analysis.  Can you spell out the problem as you see it with each?  Otherwise I'm shadow-boxing your question.

[AUChizad]

Yeah, those pesky individual liberties and civil rights...

If these aren't important issues, then stop putting laws on the books preventing them. I like how this is all those asshole liberals' fault for opposing legislation put in place, or attempted to have been put in place by Republicans concerning all of those issues. As if the default should be limited human rights in those departments, even in cases where new laws are being introduced to limit things like gay marriage and abortion. But heaven forbid anyone oppose those kinds of legislation on morality. Then they're the ones wasting all of our time. And yet, the double standard is completely lost on you guys.

[Townhallsavoy]

Yeah, those pesky individual liberties and civil rights...

Jesus, that's a lot of hot-button issues with no analysis.  Can you spell out the problem as you see it with each?  Otherwise I'm shadow-boxing your question.

1. Medicare - Not enough money going in to support the aging baby boomers.  As Obama stated in his campaign, he is against allowing Medicare to become privatized in any way.  This means that all of Medicare's costs will have to come out of taxpayers' pockets.  Further, Medicare fails to reimburse doctor's what their services are worth and actually cost doctor's money.  Many doctors turn away Medicare patients thus making those that accept them take on an impossible burden. 

2. Social security - Not so much Obama's fault; however, this is a retirement system that I am being forced to pay into and I will most likely never see myself.  Therefore, my quality of life in the present and future is affected because I am forced to pay into something that is not intended for me.

3. Obamacare - I am happy with my health insurance (as are many people).  However, because of this new legislation, I will be forced to change my health insurance in order to benefit others.  While this may improve the quality of life for the many uninsured and the many who are struggling with preexisting conditions, many of us will see a standard living decrease as we are forced to pay more in taxes for this government run program. 

In fact, Democrats (including Obama and Pelosi) promised that Obama would lead to a decrease in family health costs starting immediately.  However, that turned out to be false.  Instead of seeing a $2500/family decrease, healthcosts went up an average 4.5%. 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/sallypipes/2012/10/01/another-broken-obama-promise-the-healthcare-cost-monster-emerges/

4. Medicaid - Beginning in 2014, Obamacare extends Medicaid to all those making 138% or less than the  poverty level.  This could - if the states agree to it - extend Medicaid to 22 million people or almost half of the nation's uninsured. 

5.  Military Spending - While I am for a strong American military, when combined with the other government spending programs, it's easy to see how this will contribute to a tax hike for the middle class.

6.  Bush Tax Cuts - Even as a middle class family ($85,000 per year, owns a house), the tax cut expiration will affect me.  According to tax calculators, my family will see an increase of $3,000 per year in taxes based on this change in the tax code.

7. Increase in fossil fuels - Fuel costs have gone up dramatically over the last ten years and seem to show no signs of going down.  Green energy is what is receiving the focus and until we find a viable alternative to petroleum, the cost to fill up my gas tank will increase.  This also affects food prices.  For example, I found a receipt just this morning while organizing my desk.  The receipt was from 2008 when I first got married.  The eggs I purchase were $.99, but now, they are $1.29.  This hike in prices is soon across most of the grocery store.

8.  The Rich - There's already been talk of lowering wages and hours (see small business owners trying to avoid Obamacare) and raising prices (Papa Johns).  If I pay $10 for a shirt at a clothing store and the government causes that store to lose profit on the $10 cost, then I will end up paying more than $10 for the shirt. 

9.  Weaker investment market - Stocks are already faltering as the fiscal cliff approaches.  Home prices are going down, as I've seen in trying to sell my house.  I paid $179k for my house.  We're listing it for $174k, and we're crossing our fingers to sell it for $169k. 

10.  The $16 trillion debt



We simply don't have the budget set up to pay for our programs.  Either spending has to be drastically cut or taxes will have to be raised significantly.  Expanding the economy is taking a very long time and some are speculating that we're going to enter into another recession.


So with all of that said, it's not far-fetched to think that my generation will see a decrease in standard of living.  When taxes and prices gut my budget, will I have money to enjoy recreational activities, entertainment, and personal experiences? 

It won't be third world country.  I'm not speaking in hyperbole.  I'm merely asking if you think that because of how our government is acting, I will see a decrease in how enjoyable life is when it comes to things that cost money. 

[wesfau2]

Sorry for the delayed response.  I've got ridiculous personnel issues right now that have been pulling me away from responding with any substance (side note: my personnel issues lead me to believe that the economy is improving: two years ago no one would sneeze for fear of being unemployed...now I'm getting people leaving for other jobs and/or threatening that they have offers to get leverage).

1. Medicare - Not enough money going in to support the aging baby boomers.  As Obama stated in his campaign, he is against allowing Medicare to become privatized in any way.  This means that all of Medicare's costs will have to come out of taxpayers' pockets. Further, Medicare fails to reimburse doctor's what their services are worth and actually cost doctor's money.  Many doctors turn away Medicare patients thus making those that accept them take on an impossible burden. 

Medicare is a sticky wicket.  It benefits the people that don't pay for it anymore, but who vote in huge blocks.  It's a political fiasco.  Realistically it should be reformed, but practically it cannot.  I would takeissue with the bolded portion above: what doctors' services are worth is wholly up for debate.  That's not to say that their services aren't worth a premium...they are.  Those folks spent plenty of time and money getting trained.  The problem is that the baseling "price" for their services is largely set by the insurance reimbursement rates...which are significantly lower than retail (read: cash/pay for service patients).  So the price has been artificially inflated to ensure that the reimbursement rate (which is drastically discounted off retail) is somewhere in the neighborhood of profitable so that they can cover the medicare patients.  I maintain that private insurance is what is fucking up the entire system.

2. Social security - Not so much Obama's fault; however, this is a retirement system that I am being forced to pay into and I will most likely never see myself.  Therefore, my quality of life in the present and future is affected because I am forced to pay into something that is not intended for me.

I get the consternation here...and feel it myself.  That said, it is going to be very difficult to change the game for people who have been planning on this system for 40+ years.  SS reform will have to happen with our generation; the one that doesn't expect to ever see a dime from it and views it mostly as welfare for the elderly (wrong or right, that is the perception).

3. Obamacare - I am happy with my health insurance (as are many people).  However, because of this new legislation, I will be forced to change my health insurance in order to benefit others.  While this may improve the quality of life for the many uninsured and the many who are struggling with preexisting conditions, many of us will see a standard living decrease as we are forced to pay more in taxes for this government run program. 

I don't get this gripe, and maybe because I've been lucky.  I have fine private insurance.  I have not been mandated to change mine.  There is a GIANT gap in insurablity in this country.  Lots of people have been taking jobs for which they are overqualified or avoiding jobs for which they are qualified, but offer no benefits.  Insurance is a huge driver on which jobs people can/wil take.  Buying insurance for yourself on the open market is a fucking losing proposition.  The uninsured end up using ERs as their primary care source (thanks to EMTALA) and we all pay for that.  The common denominator in all these insurance discussions?  Private insurance...

4. Medicaid - Beginning in 2014, Obamacare extends Medicaid to all those making 138% or less than the  poverty level.  This could - if the states agree to it - extend Medicaid to 22 million people or almost half of the nation's uninsured. 

Medicaid is necessary under the current paradigm.  People too poor to buy insurance have to get it somewhere or see the comment above re: EMTALA.  Medicaid (along with food stamps and other low-income benefits) are part of a larger philosophical discussion: should our country try to help its poor?  I believe it should.  The mechanism that we utilize to help them is a topic I love to discuss, but the fact that they should be helped is not up for discussion, in my opinion.

5.  Military Spending - While I am for a strong American military, when combined with the other government spending programs, it's easy to see how this will contribute to a tax hike for the middle class.

I'm for rational military spending.  I would like to see Haliburton and their ilk cut off at the teat.  Let's buy/pay for what we need and not maintain a military/industrial complex for the hell of it.

6.  Bush Tax Cuts - Even as a middle class family ($85,000 per year, owns a house), the tax cut expiration will affect me.  According to tax calculators, my family will see an increase of $3,000 per year in taxes based on this change in the tax code.

The key here is "tax cut expiration".   So Bush cut a bunch of taxes for political purposes and now that those are expiring, everyong is calling foul?  Fuck that.  I pay taxes (I'd like to see the money spent responsibly) and I understand that a governmental machine that powers the greatest nation in the world needs money to run.  We all can, and do, disagree on the uses to which our money is spent, but I hate hearing the Republicans cry about the expiration of these cuts.

7. Increase in fossil fuels - Fuel costs have gone up dramatically over the last ten years and seem to show no signs of going down.  Green energy is what is receiving the focus and until we find a viable alternative to petroleum, the cost to fill up my gas tank will increase.  This also affects food prices.  For example, I found a receipt just this morning while organizing my desk.  The receipt was from 2008 when I first got married.  The eggs I purchase were $.99, but now, they are $1.29.  This hike in prices is soon across most of the grocery store.

Unless and until it is economical for Joe Blow, he is not going to utilize solar/wind/etc.  That is a problem, but it is one that the Republicans are paying lip service (when they address it at all).  Anyone remember Bush's quote about "jawboning" the OPEC countries when oil prices got out of hand?  We are dependent on their product.  We can either blast them out of the water and co-opt their resources or develop alternatives.

8.  The Rich - There's already been talk of lowering wages and hours (see small business owners trying to avoid Obamacare) and raising prices (Papa Johns).  If I pay $10 for a shirt at a clothing store and the government causes that store to lose profit on the $10 cost, then I will end up paying more than $10 for the shirt. 

I don't even know what you mean here.  Small businesses will exist...this is a scare tactic.

9.  Weaker investment market - Stocks are already faltering as the fiscal cliff approaches.  Home prices are going down, as I've seen in trying to sell my house.  I paid $179k for my house.  We're listing it for $174k, and we're crossing our fingers to sell it for $169k. 

When Obama took office the Dow was around 8K.  Go look where it is now.  I understand (and, in fact, am dealing with) the realities of a soft real estate market.  We're all paying for the sins of an unregulated securities environment...Thanks W.

10.  The $16 trillion debt



We simply don't have the budget set up to pay for our programs.  Either spending has to be drastically cut or taxes will have to be raised significantly.  Expanding the economy is taking a very long time and some are speculating that we're going to enter into another recession.

I think that Obama is much closer to the center than he is often painted.  I believe (YMMV) that he is cognizant of the issues lay out above.  He inherited a huge debt (created by W's cut/spend policies) and had to add to it to stabilize our free-fall economy.  I honestly believe that we are heading in the right direction. 

So with all of that said, it's not far-fetched to think that my generation will see a decrease in standard of living.  When taxes and prices gut my budget, will I have money to enjoy recreational activities, entertainment, and personal experiences?  [/u]

It won't be third world country.  I'm not speaking in hyperbole.  I'm merely asking if you think that because of how our government is acting, I will see a decrease in how enjoyable life is when it comes to things that cost money.

And I'm accused of being a part of the "I got mine/do what feels good" segment of our population?  I don't mean to single you out, THS, but I do think that it's worth noting that we just survived the worst financial climate in this country in at least 80 years.

Will it all be beer and skittles?  No, not right now.  We are repairing the damage done by reckless mortgage/securities assholes.  I was contemplating earlier today leaving my job.  I felt like I wasn't being paid in accordance with my education/skill/experience.  Then it hit me: There are so many people who wish they had my job over the last 4 years.

We are in recovery.  Everything...by almost any measure...is getting better.  Don't be short sighted...and don't dismiss our responsibility to the lesser privileged members of our citizenry.  How we treat them is what defines us as a great nation.

[bottomfeeder]

You can cut off the head of the beast and all of the ills will follow (Abolish the Federal Reserve System). Also, when the CIA stops selling drugs (opium trade Afghanistan; cocaine from Mexico and SA) and the banks stop laundering the drug money, then the Americans may just respect government again, but probably not.

[wesfau2]

You can cut off the head of the beast and all of the ills will follow (Abolish the Federal Reserve System). Also, when the CIA stops selling drugs (opium trade Afghanistan; cocaine from Mexico and SA) and the banks stop laundering the drug money, then the Americans may just respect government again, but probably not.

Can we just redirect all of your political ramblings to their own sub-forum somewhere under the basement?

[GH2001]

Sorry for the delayed response.  I've got ridiculous personnel issues right now that have been pulling me away from responding with any substance (side note: my personnel issues lead me to believe that the economy is improving: two years ago no one would sneeze for fear of being unemployed...now I'm getting people leaving for other jobs and/or threatening that they have offers to get leverage).

Medicare is a sticky wicket.  It benefits the people that don't pay for it anymore, but who vote in huge blocks.  It's a political fiasco.  Realistically it should be reformed, but practically it cannot.  I would takeissue with the bolded portion above: what doctors' services are worth is wholly up for debate.  That's not to say that their services aren't worth a premium...they are.  Those folks spent plenty of time and money getting trained.  The problem is that the baseling "price" for their services is largely set by the insurance reimbursement rates...which are significantly lower than retail (read: cash/pay for service patients).  So the price has been artificially inflated to ensure that the reimbursement rate (which is drastically discounted off retail) is somewhere in the neighborhood of profitable so that they can cover the medicare patients.  I maintain that private insurance is what is fucking up the entire system.

I get the consternation here...and feel it myself.  That said, it is going to be very difficult to change the game for people who have been planning on this system for 40+ years.  SS reform will have to happen with our generation; the one that doesn't expect to ever see a dime from it and views it mostly as welfare for the elderly (wrong or right, that is the perception).

I don't get this gripe, and maybe because I've been lucky.  I have fine private insurance.  I have not been mandated to change mine.  There is a GIANT gap in insurablity in this country.  Lots of people have been taking jobs for which they are overqualified or avoiding jobs for which they are qualified, but offer no benefits.  Insurance is a huge driver on which jobs people can/wil take.  Buying insurance for yourself on the open market is a fucking losing proposition.  The uninsured end up using ERs as their primary care source (thanks to EMTALA) and we all pay for that.  The common denominator in all these insurance discussions?  Private insurance...

Medicaid is necessary under the current paradigm.  People too poor to buy insurance have to get it somewhere or see the comment above re: EMTALA.  Medicaid (along with food stamps and other low-income benefits) are part of a larger philosophical discussion: should our country try to help its poor?  I believe it should.  The mechanism that we utilize to help them is a topic I love to discuss, but the fact that they should be helped is not up for discussion, in my opinion.

I'm for rational military spending.  I would like to see Haliburton and their ilk cut off at the teat.  Let's buy/pay for what we need and not maintain a military/industrial complex for the hell of it.

The key here is "tax cut expiration".   So Bush cut a bunch of taxes for political purposes and now that those are expiring, everyong is calling foul?  Fuck that.  I pay taxes (I'd like to see the money spent responsibly) and I understand that a governmental machine that powers the greatest nation in the world needs money to run.  We all can, and do, disagree on the uses to which our money is spent, but I hate hearing the Republicans cry about the expiration of these cuts.

Unless and until it is economical for Joe Blow, he is not going to utilize solar/wind/etc.  That is a problem, but it is one that the Republicans are paying lip service (when they address it at all).  Anyone remember Bush's quote about "jawboning" the OPEC countries when oil prices got out of hand?  We are dependent on their product.  We can either blast them out of the water and co-opt their resources or develop alternatives.

I don't even know what you mean here.  Small businesses will exist...this is a scare tactic.


When Obama took office the Dow was around 8K.  Go look where it is now.  I understand (and, in fact, am dealing with) the realities of a soft real estate market.  We're all paying for the sins of an unregulated securities environment...Thanks W.

I think that Obama is much closer to the center than he is often painted.  I believe (YMMV) that he is cognizant of the issues lay out above.  He inherited a huge debt (created by W's cut/spend policies) and had to add to it to stabilize our free-fall economy.  I honestly believe that we are heading in the right direction. 

And I'm accused of being a part of the "I got mine/do what feels good" segment of our population?  I don't mean to single you out, THS, but I do think that it's worth noting that we just survived the worst financial climate in this country in at least 80 years.

Will it all be beer and skittles?  No, not right now.  We are repairing the damage done by reckless mortgage/securities assholes.  I was contemplating earlier today leaving my job.  I felt like I wasn't being paid in accordance with my education/skill/experience.  Then it hit me: There are so many people who wish they had my job over the last 4 years.

We are in recovery.  Everything...by almost any measure...is getting better.  Don't be short sighted...and don't dismiss our responsibility to the lesser privileged members of our citizenry.  How we treat them is what defines us as a great nation.

I'll give you credit Wes. You've at least attained your positions based off a degree of reason and educated opinion. The part I hate is that most of the electorate does not. Critical thinking and useful banter has went down the crapper. Debating and critical thinking is what has led to many of the worlds great inventions and innovations. It's why we are a country of consumers now, not producers and innovators. At least nothing like we used to be.

[Townhallsavoy]

Will it all be beer and skittles?  No, not right now.  We are repairing the damage done by reckless mortgage/securities assholes.  I was contemplating earlier today leaving my job.  I felt like I wasn't being paid in accordance with my education/skill/experience.  Then it hit me: There are so many people who wish they had my job over the last 4 years.

We are in recovery.  Everything...by almost any measure...is getting better.  Don't be short sighted...and don't dismiss our responsibility to the lesser privileged members of our citizenry.  How we treat them is what defines us as a great nation.

Great responses.

I'm genuinely curious about what the Obama supporters actually think.  I do have personal issues with the way Obama leads (If I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon), but their policies are starting to appeal to me.  Most of my environment paints Democrats as lunatic, left-wing, romantic nutjobs that act on flippant emotions.  However, looking at the internal numbers of who voted for whom two Tuesdays ago, it's hit me that it's not just welfare-addicted black people and Berkeley-inspired white people that voted for Obama.  Some very intelligent, very successful, very rich, very white success stories also voted for Obama. 

[CCTAU]

I'm just not sure which country some of you live in.

The market dove. The investors clammed up....again. More jobs are falling.


But hey, the economy was getting better....

So since the economy was not falling like a rock in a shit outhouse, it was "getting better"?

With growth so slow it could barely be measured? And as the promise of a Romney win came along, a little hope was shown by a few in the investment community leading up to the election and as soon as the great ONE prevailed, even those folks clammed up.

I guess we differ on what very successful, very rich, very white means to the economy. Getting and being rich is one thing. Continuing to create jobs, grow your business, and involve yourself in meaningful philanthropy is a great measuring stick.

[Saniflush]

Can we just redirect all of your political ramblings to their own sub-forum somewhere under the basement?

More importantly, how can we get on the cocaine and opium mailing lists?

[GH2001]

I'm just not sure which country some of you live in.

The market dove. The investors clammed up....again. More jobs are falling.


But hey, the economy was getting better....

So since the economy was not falling like a rock in a shit outhouse, it was "getting better"?

With growth so slow it could barely be measured? And as the promise of a Romney win came along, a little hope was shown by a few in the investment community leading up to the election and as soon as the great ONE prevailed, even those folks clammed up.

I guess we differ on what very successful, very rich, very white means to the economy. Getting and being rich is one thing. Continuing to create jobs, grow your business, and involve yourself in meaningful philanthropy is a great measuring stick.

And actually to respond to Wes' point about W and deregulation, it was actually Carter and Clinton that dereg'd the banks. In 1977 and in 1995. This flooded the market with subprime mortgages. Banks didn't exactly lend to rip people off but moreso because the govt made them. And they also pushed ARMs like no ones business. The securities being traded under W were merely another symptom, not the cause of the crisis. In reality W regulated industry more with SOX. I lived through that shit in thr financial industry, which I've been in my whole life and still am in.

http://articles.businessinsider.com/2009-06-27/wall_street/30009234_1_mortgage-standards-lending-standards-mortgage-rates

[Tarheel]

I'm just not sure which country some of you live in.

The market dove. The investors clammed up....again. More jobs are falling.


But hey, the economy was getting better....

So since the economy was not falling like a rock in a shit outhouse, it was "getting better"?

With growth so slow it could barely be measured? And as the promise of a Romney win came along, a little hope was shown by a few in the investment community leading up to the election and as soon as the great ONE prevailed, even those folks clammed up.

I guess we differ on what very successful, very rich, very white means to the economy. Getting and being rich is one thing. Continuing to create jobs, grow your business, and involve yourself in meaningful philanthropy is a great measuring stick.

I have to agree with you here.  The economic situation is not improving by practically every metric with more bad news coming out each day since the election.  I read that Hispanic/Latino unemployment is up to double-digits nationwide now (how's that Obama vote working out for ya amigo?), the Eurozone is going back into a recession (when is it our turn?  did we ever get out of the recession?), the Census Bureau just reported this week that the poverty rate has gone up, Jobless claims have gone up (The Pharaoh's minions at the AP said they'd go down in the Sandy rebuilding and cleanup!), the stock market looks to have been loosing ground since the election, and suddenly I see the MSM has finally realized that there's an inflation problem.  In other news; regarding healthcare, my own small business has already started talking about layoffs and moving folk into part-time status too.  The Dems haven't committed to a Budget since The Pharaoh's First Immaculation (and still can't apparently).  And I swear that I think that WWIII is on the verge of breaking out in the Middle East yet no one is looking at that because a couple of Generals had affairs.  So, yes, everything is getting better!

Welcome to Obamaville.

http://www.voxxi.com/latino-unemployment-rate-increased/

http://www.cnbc.com/id/49836852

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/post-storm-construction-hiring-may-aid-us-economy

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-11-15/jobless-claims-jumped-last-week-as-sandy-damaged-u-s-job-market.html

http://www.cnbc.com/id/49836852

http://washington.cbslocal.com/2012/11/15/census-u-s-poverty-rate-spikes-nearly-50-million-americans-affected/

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/15/us-eurozone-economy-idUSBRE8AE0HV20121115

http://thehill.com/blogs/on-the-money/budget/268207-new-dem-budget-chairwoman-cannot-commit-to-doing-budget-

I'm sure it's ALL Bush's and the Republican's fault.  ALL of it.

[CCTAU]

The sad part is that everything is so crappy, that the slightest improvement is lauded by the MSM as next big BOOM!

Ten years ago, an economy running like this one today would have had Bush being impeached for breathing air. Today? IGNORED!

[RWS]

Yeah, those pesky individual liberties and civil rights...

I'm fine with them being able to marry, personally.  There would probably have to be some other laws that are passed to deal with other legal issues that would arise from that, but I've got not problems with it.  That issue simply comes in alot lower on my give-a-shit meter than keeping this country financially stable, etc.