Holy crap...

[Snaggletiger]

So Michael Phelps tried to injure the 50 meter breaststroke swimmer for the Chinese National team?

I knew there was something shady about that guy.

[Vandy Vol]

Look, they probably could have been more forthcoming.

Could (not should) have been more forthcoming?  This is sugar coating the fact that he shouldn't have outright lied.

I maintain that when they were asking them about this bountygate shit, that they denied that there was any kind of system to intentionally hurt offensive players on opposing teams, which I genuinely believe just as much as I genuinely believe that Auburn never had diddly shit to do with a pay for play scandal with Cam Newton.

He denied that there was a bounty system, period.  It's not as if the NFL came in and specifically asked him, "Is there a bounty system in place which is particularly geared toward injuring players only?", and then Payton and every other coach responded, "No, we have no bounty system which is focused on injuring players only."  Bounty systems, regardless of their goals, purpose, or intent, are a violation of NFL policy.  He lied, and now the lie has caught up with him.

Aside from that, as Wes pointed out, when you reward a player for causing an opponent to be carted off, then you are asking them to intentionally hurt players in exchange for a reward.  How do you set a goal of causing a player to not be able to walk off the field without assistance, yet claim that there was no intent to hurt anyone with this bounty system?  What, you just reward players for fluke accidents that they didn't even try to cause?  "Oh shit, son!  Yo shoe laces came untied during that last play!  That's a $10,000 bounty reward, dawg!"

I mean, in the history of the NFL no head coach has ever been suspended one game. And they suspend Payton a whole fucking season? For this?

Cowboys assistant coach Wade Wilson was suspended for five games in 2007 for violating rules regarding performance enhancing drugs.  Saints assistant defensive line coach Travis Jones was suspended for 30 days in 2010 for violating the NFL's "personal conduct policy."

No, those two aren't close to a year, and those coaches weren't head coaches, but coaches have been suspended for violating rules; why should a head coach be treated differently than an assistant coach?

And if a coach can be suspended for essentially a third of the season for giving his players drugs to make them perform better, then why wouldn't a coach who allowed a bounty system which caused players to intentionally injure their opponents not get a longer suspension?  Cheating with performance enhancing drugs is more severe of a violation than trying to physically injure another player and jeopardize his career?

[AUChizad]

Deadspin nails it again.

http://deadspin.com/5890893/the-real-outrage-of-the-saints-bounty-scandal

The Real Outrage Of The Saints Bounty Scandal

This is an offseason edition of the NFL roundtable, a partnership between Deadspin and Slate. For more roundtable goodness, go back and read every entry from the 2011 season, from the preseason to the Super Bowl.

Lost in all the outrage over the New Orleans Saints' bounty program is a conversation about money and what it means to professional athletes. The sums that we've been hearing about—anywhere in the range of $1,000 to $10,000 to knock out opposing players—sound substantial to the typical American. But the average NFL player makes just short of $2 million, while the median salary is around $800,000. Players are paid only during the season, which means they earn 1/17th of their salary every week. For a player making the average salary that's around $120,000 a week. For someone making the median, it's close to $50,000.

Roman Harper, the Saints safety who's been known to dish out kill shots, was in the last year of his rookie deal in 2009. That was a four-year, $2.5 million contract, well under the average NFL salary. But after the 2010 season, Harper signed a new four-year deal for $16 million guaranteed. This is money to NFL players. And it's this kind of cash that will motivate a defensive player to decapitate a quarterback, not a few grand under the table.

Non-contract bonuses are common in the locker room. Not every reward is based on aggression. Some have to do with composure. If you get cheap-shotted and you don't retaliate, you get a handful of cash. If you cause a fumble in practice, you get paid. (And if you're the fumbler, you pay up.) If you make a tackle inside the 20-yard line on a kickoff, you get paid. If you're the first one on the kickoff coverage team to cross the opposite goal line, you get paid. The money breaks up the monotony of a drab work week by rewarding a player for making a play he was trying to make anyway, because it's his job.

This is life for a guy inside the NFL bubble, a world where extreme violence is rewarded with a paycheck. Before he got money to play the game, this violence was rewarded with pats on the back, special treatment, undeserved grades, scholarships, women, and status. There has always been a reward system in place for playing the game viciously. In the NFL, above all else, that reward is keeping your job.

Did Gregg Williams, by allegedly offering up cash for violent hits, make the game more dangerous? Not any more than the Pop Warner coach who grabs a kid by his facemask and tells him he hits like a sissy. Not any more than an ESPN correspondent who speculates about Michael Vick's readiness to return to action following a concussion. And certainly not any more than Roger Goodell, who regularly implies that he can make the game safe by changing the rules.

Still, it is a coach's league. A player only steps on the field if his coach allows it. And there are certainly plenty of tough-guy coaches like Gregg Williams who beat their chests and think of little mind games to get their players foaming at the mouth to go hit someone. But once you step on the field, everything else fades away, including the pre-game speech of your overzealous coach. When you make the choice to put on your helmet, there's going to be a bounty of one kind or another on your head. No locker room speech can change that.

I find it unlikely that a player would focus on injuring an opponent in defiance of the referees on the field, the league office that reviews every hit, and the peers to whom he must answer every day and who don't take kindly to cheap shots. No matter what cash they dispensed, the Saints didn't play the game differently than any other team once they hit the field. These peripheral reward systems are pebbles around a boulder, and that boulder is rolling downhill.

Besides, in a game where 100 percent of the players get injured, why does it matter to us how they're injured? The real outrage here isn't the bounties and the cart-off hits and knockout blows; it's the league office's need to sanctify all the bloodshed and ugliness with well-drawn rules and regulations. But bounties or no bounties, the game maims the men who play it. Yet the NFL stays busy selling the myth that football would be safe so long as the guys on the field played with a little integrity. Now where is the integrity in that?

[Vandy Vol]

Lost in all the outrage over the New Orleans Saints' bounty program is a conversation about money and what it means to professional athletes. The sums that we've been hearing about—anywhere in the range of $1,000 to $10,000 to knock out opposing players—sound substantial to the typical American. But the average NFL player makes just short of $2 million, while the median salary is around $800,000.

Not relevant to the matter at hand.  Bounties are illegal whether they are for $1 or $5,000,000,000,000,000,000.

In addition to this, the mention of how paltry the bounty amounts are suggests that there is no incentive for these players.  These players are naturally aggressive; Ray Lewis wants to knock the QB's head off in every play regardless of what he gets paid to do it.

If that's the case, then why have a bounty system in the first place?  Why implement something illegal if it's going to have absolutely no effect, and the players are still going to gun for other players just like they would in any other game?  It makes no sense for coaches and players to start something like a bounty system if they truly aren't paying attention to it and don't care about it.

Non-contract bonuses are common in the locker room. Not every reward is based on aggression. Some have to do with composure. If you get cheap-shotted and you don't retaliate, you get a handful of cash. If you cause a fumble in practice, you get paid. (And if you're the fumbler, you pay up.)

Common or not, they're still now allowed.  Speeding is common, but try telling that to the next officer who writes you a speeding ticket.

Did Gregg Williams, by allegedly offering up cash for violent hits, make the game more dangerous?

There was a bounty for taking people out of the game due to injury, and even one specifically for causing a player to be carted off due to injury.  It wasn't simply for a "violent hit."  Deadspin definitely did spin that one.

Did they make the game more dangerous?  You tell me.  Anthony Hargrove gets a late hit on Favre in 2009, resulting in an injury to his ankle; Favre turns out to be a named target in said bounties.  Not enough proof?  Let's look at the number of first downs given up via penalty prior to 2009, and during the bounty system from 2009 - 2011:

2006: 18
2007: 12
2008: 19
2009: 24
2010: 29
2011: 38

The three year average from 2006 - 2008 was 16.3.  After the bounty system was in place in 2009-2011?  Three year average is 30.3, almost double what it was before.  Nah, the game's not more dangerous with an increase in helmet to helmet hits, late hits, crack back blocks, chop blocks, etc.  These rules are silly in the first place, and they already get violated, so what's the big deal about an increase in illegal hits intended to cart someone off the field?

I find it unlikely that a player would focus on injuring an opponent in defiance of the referees on the field, the league office that reviews every hit, and the peers to whom he must answer every day and who don't take kindly to cheap shots.

The number of penalties that they incurred from 2009 and onward suggest otherwise.  Not to mention the actions of Anthony Hargrove, who ecstatically screamed, "Favre is out of the game! Favre is done! Favre is done!" after he injured another player on a late hit.

Nooo, players would never disregard referees and then be happy about the results of their illegal in-game actions.  Never.

[JR4AU]

A. This is your opinion, you do not know that to be true and as the esteemed counselor from the panhandle pointed out they weren't doing bounties for sacks and pancakes and stuff like that, and yes I am sure many NFL teams do that. They were out to permanently injure players...there is a HUGE difference in that.

B. The bigger problem with this statement Chizad, and a problem I believe with society in general is....

JUST BECAUSE EVERYONE DOES IT....DOESN'T MAKE IT RIGHT.  It isn't a valid defense...it is an argument a teenager has with their parents.

What this guy said.

[AUChizad]

Not relevant to the matter at hand.  Bounties are illegal whether they are for $1 or $5,000,000,000,000,000,000.

In addition to this, the mention of how paltry the bounty amounts are suggests that there is no incentive for these players.  These players are naturally aggressive; Ray Lewis wants to knock the QB's head off in every play regardless of what he gets paid to do it.

If that's the case, then why have a bounty system in the first place?  Why implement something illegal if it's going to have absolutely no effect, and the players are still going to gun for other players just like they would in any other game?  It makes no sense for coaches and players to start something like a bounty system if they truly aren't paying attention to it and don't care about it.

It is completely relevant. You're just not getting it, apparently.

As the article said it best:

The money breaks up the monotony of a drab work week by rewarding a player for making a play he was trying to make anyway, because it's his job

It's a $5 buy-in poker game. It's quarter slots. It's not a serious racket, it's just a little extra something fun to make things interesting.

Common or not, they're still now allowed.  Speeding is common, but try telling that to the next officer who writes you a speeding ticket.

So give the speeder a $40 ticket or whatever. Not the fucking death penalty, while a Maserati jets through a stop sign at 120 MPH behind you.

There was a bounty for taking people out of the game due to injury, and even one specifically for causing a player to be carted off due to injury.  It wasn't simply for a "violent hit."  Deadspin definitely did spin that one.

Did they make the game more dangerous?  You tell me.  Anthony Hargrove gets a late hit on Favre in 2009, resulting in an injury to his ankle; Favre turns out to be a named target in said bounties.  Not enough proof?  Let's look at the number of first downs given up via penalty prior to 2009, and during the bounty system from 2009 - 2011:

2006: 18
2007: 12
2008: 19
2009: 24
2010: 29
2011: 38

The three year average from 2006 - 2008 was 16.3.  After the bounty system was in place in 2009-2011?  Three year average is 30.3, almost double what it was before.  Nah, the game's not more dangerous with an increase in helmet to helmet hits, late hits, crack back blocks, chop blocks, etc.  These rules are silly in the first place, and they already get violated, so what's the big deal about an increase in illegal hits intended to cart someone off the field?

Pppffffffttttt.

Then punish them on the field. Which apparently, they are, with the flags. You honestly believe that the defensive players are intentionally giving up big yardage penalties and putting games at risk (remember, a Superbowl = $$$$$$$$) so that they can get a thousand dollars for hurting someone?

The number of penalties that they incurred from 2009 and onward suggest otherwise.  Not to mention the actions of Anthony Hargrove, who ecstatically screamed, "Favre is out of the game! Favre is done! Favre is done!" after he injured another player on a late hit.

Nooo, players would never disregard referees and then be happy about the results of their illegal in-game actions.  Never.

I have never heard these accusations until the whole "Bountygate" term was coined. Let's see who had the most late hits from 2006-2008. Surely whatever team that is, was full of bloodlusting thugs hell-bent on injuring their peers.

[Godfather]

Actually everyone in this thread gets it save for you Chizad.  We get it ....you are a sidewalk Saints fan.  I am glad you have jumped on board of your new town's team. 

However if you cannot see the difference between a reward for a sack and a reward for breaking an opposing players leg, I can't help you.  Again you need to put the cocaine down.

[GH2001]

Actually everyone in this thread gets it save for you Chizad.  We get it ....you are a sidewalk Saints fan.  I am glad you have jumped on board of your new town's team. 

However if you cannot see the difference between a reward for a sack and a reward for breaking an opposing players leg, I can't help you.  Again you need to put the cocaine down.

Thank you for saying this so I won't have to retype it.

Defending something you truly believe in an objective manner with facts to support it is one thing.

Having a homer induced bias and simply trying to find a convenient way to support the pre-established bias is another.

[AUChizad]

Thank you for saying this so I won't have to retype it.

Defending something you truly believe in an objective manner with facts to support it is one thing.

Having a homer induced bias and simply trying to find a convenient way to support the pre-established bias is another.

How many times in how many ways do I have to say that I truly believe that the players did not have a system set up to deliberately seriously injure other players and ruin their careers. Sorry, but I take the players for their words. I happen to know one of the Saints defensive players quite personally, and he has told me it's a bunch of bullshit. All of the defensive players who have spoken publicly on it have corroborated this.

Yes, there was a pool, which is against the rules. If you find the pool, in and of itself, to be abhorrent, then you're completely naive A) for thinking what basically amounts to gambling on the level of Battle of the Crown is reprehensible and B) for thinking that this only happens in New Orleans. But I believe the players themselves when they say they are offended that people are accusing them of intentionally trying to harm other players.

But you "just know." Because the media told you so. Sorry, but I've heard that before. Wasn't credible then, isn't credible now.

[Token]

So, just judging by the few games I watched this season, I'm assuming it's safe to say that Roman Harper didn't receive a red fucking cent of a bounty?

[djsimp]

How many times in how many ways do I have to say that I truly believe that the players did not have a system set up to deliberately seriously injure other players and ruin their careers. Sorry, but I take the players for their words. I happen to know one of the Saints defensive players quite personally, and he has told me it's a bunch of bullshit. All of the defensive players who have spoken publicly on it have corroborated this.

Yes, there was a pool, which is against the rules. If you find the pool, in and of itself, to be abhorrent, then you're completely naive A) for thinking what basically amounts to gambling on the level of Battle of the Crown is reprehensible and B) for thinking that this only happens in New Orleans. But I believe the players themselves when they say they are offended that people are accusing them of intentionally trying to harm other players.

But you "just know." Because the media told you so. Sorry, but I've heard that before. Wasn't credible then, isn't credible now.

[The Prowler]

Off Topic: QB Drew Brees is now on the market as a free agent after the Saints Admin. decided not to sign him to a longterm deal that he was wanting.

[Godfather]

Yes, there was a pool, which is against the rules. If you find the pool, in and of itself, to be abhorrent, then you're completely naive A) for thinking what basically amounts to gambling on the level of Battle of the Crown is reprehensible and B) for thinking that this only happens in New Orleans. But I believe the players themselves when they say they are offended that people are accusing them of intentionally trying to harm other players.

Once again arguments for "because everyone does it" do not hold water.  The Saints got caught...Goodell wanted to make an example.  He achieved his goal.  It is about M-O-N-E-Y and again the NFL gets sued every year by former players who think the league should have protected them better. 

Once everyone finds out about the code red, they have to put a stop to it, media or not.

BTW the Saints organization and the coaches seem to be accepting this why can't you?

[Godfather]

Off Topic: QB Drew Brees is now on the market as a free agent after the Saints Admin. decided not to sign him to a longterm deal that he was wanting.

Now that is a fucking QB I would applaud the Dolphins for going after. Even though he was part of a bounty to take out Chizads moms legs.

Of course the Dolphins won't get him ...but!

[JR4AU]

How many times in how many ways do I have to say that I truly believe that the players did not have a system set up to deliberately seriously injure other players and ruin their careers.

I actually get the distinction.  You don't have to have the intent to "injure" to have the intent to "knock the living fuck out of someone on the football field."  I get that.  What you don't get is that perception is reality, and if the public believes that a guy might collect some money for a "cart off" and he can't make it happen with a legit hit, there's some of those fucker that will go for a knee just to collect a bounty they don't even need.  It threatens to create a culture of competition that goes beyond the scope of the game.  Maybe not in all.  Maybe it's just good clean fun withing the game to inspire a little extra fun when they get paid, but all the same, it creates a situation where some dumbfuck that can run a 4.4 40, and weighs 250 will take it beyond the intent if he thinks he'll win. 

Oh, and BTDub, you "know" this goes on on every club like all bammer "know" Cam got paid.  Yeah, I've heard other players say it went on to some extent on their clubs, but there just might be some scrupulous coaches out there making sure it doesn't happen on their watch.  And as of the time this punishment came out, that number grew quite a bit I'd imagine. 

[GH2001]

How many times in how many ways do I have to say that I truly believe that the players did not have a system set up to deliberately seriously injure other players and ruin their careers. Sorry, but I take the players for their words. I happen to know one of the Saints defensive players quite personally, and he has told me it's a bunch of bullshit. All of the defensive players who have spoken publicly on it have corroborated this.

Yes, there was a pool, which is against the rules. If you find the pool, in and of itself, to be abhorrent, then you're completely naive A) for thinking what basically amounts to gambling on the level of Battle of the Crown is reprehensible and B) for thinking that this only happens in New Orleans. But I believe the players themselves when they say they are offended that people are accusing them of intentionally trying to harm other players.

But you "just know." Because the media told you so. Sorry, but I've heard that before. Wasn't credible then, isn't credible now.

You work in the IT world so you know what C.Y.A. is.

[Vandy Vol]

It is completely relevant. You're just not getting it, apparently.

No, I get it.  I get that bounties are illegal, regardless of the reward at stake.  Thus, the amount of the bounty is not relevant.  The fact that it exists at all is what is relevant.

So give the speeder a $40 ticket or whatever. Not the fucking death penalty, while a Maserati jets through a stop sign at 120 MPH behind you.

A year suspension is not the "death penalty."  Again, look at the coach who was suspended for a third of the season due to cheating with performance enhancing drugs.  Are you really telling me that cheating so as to perform better is more serious of a violation than intentionally trying to have people carted off the field, and rewarding people for doing so?  And lying when directly asked about it?

You honestly believe that the defensive players are intentionally giving up big yardage penalties and putting games at risk (remember, a Superbowl = $$$$$$$$) so that they can get a thousand dollars for hurting someone?

Do you honestly believe that the coaches and the players are going to put a bounty system in place and then not use it?  What the fuck is the purpose of offering a reward to players for doing X if no player is seriously and intentionally going to go try to do X?  Do you honestly believe that a team is going to implement an illegal bounty system just for shits and giggles when it actually does nothing for them because everyone is apparently too chicken shit to piss off a ref or two?

How many times in how many ways do I have to say that I truly believe that the players did not have a system set up to deliberately seriously injure other players and ruin their careers.

Dude...they admitted to making payouts for "cart off" hits.  How else do you explain that portion of the bounty system?  They planned to tell their opponent so many jokes that he would be doubled over laughing and wouldn't be able to walk off the field without assistance?

[Snaggletiger]

The amount of the bounty makes no difference to the players.  There's a bottle of Maker's Mark at stake in the March Madness tourney.  Although my bracket couldn't win a 6 oz. bottle of delicious coke product, just the fact that there's something on the line makes me want to win.  First time I went to Victory Land years ago, I watched the puppies run and figured out how to pick a pup and place a bet.  The first couple of races I watched before I placed the bet, it looked pretty cool.  Hey, those dogs are fast.  I plunked down $2.00 on #6 to win.  I thought I was going to have a heart attack when the gates flew open and #6 came by me in the lead. He finished 148th.  Slow bastard.

By the way, after that I was let in on a foolproof way to pick a dog.  When they parade them in front of the fans prior to the race, pick the one that stops to take a piss or a mowanga dump in front of hundreds of people.  He's lighter and loose.  He ain't skeered.   

[JR4AU]

Dude...they admitted to making payouts for "cart off" hits.  How else do you explain that portion of the bounty system?  They planned to tell their opponent so many jokes that he would be doubled over laughing and wouldn't be able to walk off the field without assistance?

That's actually the only part of Chizad's rant that has any merit.  You don't have to intend to injure someone to knock them out of a game, or have them carted off.   You can be carted off with no career threatening injury, and due to a completely legal hit.  Still, that argument is meaningless in the big picture.

[Vandy Vol]

That's actually the only part of Chizad's rant that has any merit.  You don't have to intend to injure someone to knock them out of a game, or have them carted off.   You can be carted off with no career threatening injury, and due to a completely legal hit.  Still, that argument is meaningless in the big picture.

So, they set up a bounty system with incentives for completing certain objectives, but no one goes out there with the intent to complete any of the objectives required for a bounty?

It would be different if the coaches came in the locker room after a game and retroactively gave rewards for actions that they deemed, in hindsight, to be worthy of recognition.  Still in violation of NFL rules, but different from the bounty system we have here.

The bounty objectives were known prior to the games; they were shown in pre-game slides.  If a player is not going to have the intent to complete a bounty objective, such as causing someone to be carted off the field, then what's the purpose of the bounty system?  Why risk your ass for an illegal bounty system that, according to you and Chad, doesn't actually motivate the players to do anything intentionally?