"Who Dat" Bounty Games...

[djsimp]

You can quote me when I say Dave's Nagas is some bad mofos!

[RWS]

Jesus Christ on ice skates, I don't think I've ever defended anything Alabama related to the full level of retard that you are presently at, Chizad. And I get full retard sometimes. The NFL has actual real tangible documents that reference cart off hits, taking a QB out, money, names with monetary amounts, and references to a bounty. Again, where the Saints really fucked themselves is that they lied about it years ago, and continued on with their system. The NFL doesn't have alot of reason to make this more than it really is. They don't have any motive to keep it in the headlines. There is nothing to gain from it. In fact, if anything, it is a big black eye on the sport. The players have alot to gain from lying about it, though.

There is no "well, cart-off really means this, QB out means that". It's total horseshit and you know it. If the topic were about Alabama football this would be way more than enough evidence for you. Hell, I would have to agree with it too. But it is something you like, so we have about 20 pages of retard. It's mind boggling. Fuck, I think we all know I would argue with a fence post. I would have to take this one with a grain of KY, though.

The Saints are fucked, and they have nobody to blame but themselves.

[The Prowler]

Hilarious coming from Mr. "BOOM MOTHERFUCKER!!!! SNAP HIS FUCKING RIBS IN HALF AND RIP HIS GODDAMN THROAT OUT WITH YOUR TEETH AND LET THE BLOOD RUN DOWN YOUR FACE!!!!", and that's what you want in a DC at the college level. But God-forbid an NFL coach showing some hubris to his full grown adult, big boy, professional athletes.

Yeah, but there's a slight difference...The Saints DC would say that statement, then at the end of it he'd add "LITERALLY!!! YOU'D GET YOUR MONEY IF YOU DID THAT TO ANY OF THE PLAYERS ON THE HIT LIST!!! NOW GO OUT THERE AND FUCK THEM UP!!!"

[AUChizad]

I try not to be redundant, but people keep making the same misinformed bullshit arguments.

I get full retard.

Agreed.

The NFL has actual real tangible documents that reference cart off hits, taking a QB out, money, names with monetary amounts, and references to a bounty.

They're "real" and "tangible" just the same as me "transcribing" a statement from you that you fuck goats. Except those actually exist.

The NFL doesn't have alot of reason to make this more than it really is. They don't have any motive to keep it in the headlines. There is nothing to gain from it. In fact, if anything, it is a big black eye on the sport. The players have alot to gain from lying about it, though.

There is no way that you are actually this stupid.

You seriously can't see any motivation for the Goodell to scorch the earth on a program and make a huge public display to show that he's cracking down on player safety?

Since the end of the 2011 season, lawsuits have been piling up on Goodell's desk like an 80's movie montage. The former players shooting themselves in the chest, etc. etc. It's a PR nightmare for Goodell, and the court cases aren't great either. The league office went through recent violations and said "Well, there were those sour grapes the Vikings reported about the Saints from two years ago...maybe we can make something stick there. Oh, looks like they're still doing the pool thing! Let's use that!"

If they wanted to keep it "under wraps" to protect their image, as you seem to believe, they would have wrapped this up much quicker than slowly rolling it out piece by piece to the media. So far it's taken them 113 days since the initial press release to say "Trust us, we've got 5,000 pages of damning evidence that the Saints consistently ran a program to injure other players. Prove it? Well...here's 200 pages. There's about 1 or 2 in there, if you can find them, from one particular game that they said the word bounty. Somebody (not saying who) wrote some notes that went kind of like this..."

There is no "well, cart-off really means this, QB out means that". It's total horseshit and you know it. If the topic were about Alabama football this would be way more than enough evidence for you. Hell, I would have to agree with it too. But it is something you like, so we have about 20 pages of retard. It's mind boggling. Fuck, I think we all know I would argue with a fence post. I would have to take this one with a grain of KY, though.

The Saints are fucked, and they have nobody to blame but themselves.

Everyone in this thread (sans Snaggle & I) must live in this town and go to this bar.

[AUChizad]

Yeah, but there's a slight difference...The Saints DC would say that statement, then at the end of it he'd add "LITERALLY!!! YOU'D GET YOUR MONEY IF YOU DID THAT TO ANY OF THE PLAYERS ON THE HIT LIST!!! NOW GO OUT THERE AND FUCK THEM UP!!!"

OIC. Are you "transcribing" that?

Is this coach Will Ferrell we're talking about?

"I AM SPEAKING 100% LITERALLY WHEN I SAY THAT I AM IMPLORING YOU TO REMOVE THIS GENTLEMAN'S HEAD FROM HIS NECK! I WANT TO ESTABLISH WITH CLARITY THAT I AM NOT BEING FIGURATIVE IN ANY WAY!"

 

[Townhallsavoy]

OIC. Are you "transcribing" that?

Is this coach Will Ferrell we're talking about?

"I AM SPEAKING 100% LITERALLY WHEN I SAY THAT I AM IMPLORING YOU TO REMOVE THIS GENTLEMAN'S HEAD FROM HIS NECK! I WANT TO ESTABLISH WITH CLARITY THAT I AM NOT BEING FIGURATIVE IN ANY WAY!"

 

"Kill the head!  But only the head!  We need his body still flailing around out there to cause penalties!  You know how many fucking god damn false starts they'll have if a headless body is out there flailing around?  It'll be fucking awesome!  You rip that fuckers head off but make sure blood flow stays circulating!  Fuck yeah!"

[AUChizad]

"Kill the head!  But only the head!  We need his body still flailing around out there to cause penalties!  You know how many fucking god damn false starts they'll have if a headless body is out there flailing around?  It'll be fucking awesome!  You rip that fuckers head off but make sure blood flow stays circulating!  Fuck yeah!"

I love how people, here and otherwise, say things like "How can kill the head possibly mean anything other than it's literal meaning?"

What the fuck exactly is the literal meaning of "kill the head"? I guess what you described above.

[AU_Tiger_2000]

I love how people, here and otherwise, say things like "How can kill the head possibly mean anything other than it's literal meaning?"

What the fudge exactly is the literal meaning of "kill the head"? I guess what you described above.

Normally I would agree, but according to the transcript it wasn't just a metaphor.

http://www.mercurynews.com/49ers/ci_20332637/bounty-tape-transcript-ex-saints-assistant-gregg-williams

We've got a lot of guys up at the top.

Kill the head and the body will die.

Kill the head and the body will die.

We've got to do everything in the world to make sure we kill Frank Gore's head.

We want him running sideways.

We want his head sideways.

This could be taken as pump the guys up speaking metaphorically as in we need to make sure to stop their best player (the head) and the body (the rest of the team) will lose it's way.  Wanting his head sideways I could take as making him run East West and not North South.  But then...

We hit (expletive) (Alex) Smith right there.

(Williams points to his chin).

Remember me, I've got the first one. I've got the first one.

(Williams rubs his fingers together to indicate he'll pay money for the hit).

Go lay that (expletive) out!

OK, now we gotta rely on something we can't see (the pointing and rubbing of fingers) so maybe take it with a grain of salt, but this is starting to sound worse.

Every single one of you, before you get off the pile, affect the head. Early. Affect the head. Continue, touch and hit the head.

...

The little wide receiver, No. 10 (Kyle Williams) ... about his concussion. We need to (expletive) put a lock on him right now.

...

We need to decide whether Crabtree wants to be a fake (expletive) prima donna, or he wants to be a tough guy. We need to find it out.

He becomes human when we (expletive) take out that outside ACL.

We need to decide on how many times we can beat Frank Gore's head.

We need to decide how many times we can bull-rush, and we can (expletive) put Vernon Davis' ankles over the pile.

OK, it gets ugly at the end.  Take out the ACL?  Beat on his head?  Put his ankles over?  Whether or not he was paying for it the guy had to go.  Now I understand that that is just Williams and he's not there any more, but head coach and GM ultimately take some of the blame for the people they put into place.

[RWS]

Normally I would agree, but according to the transcript it wasn't just a metaphor.

http://www.mercurynews.com/49ers/ci_20332637/bounty-tape-transcript-ex-saints-assistant-gregg-williams

This could be taken as pump the guys up speaking metaphorically as in we need to make sure to stop their best player (the head) and the body (the rest of the team) will lose it's way.  Wanting his head sideways I could take as making him run East West and not North South.  But then...

OK, now we gotta rely on something we can't see (the pointing and rubbing of fingers) so maybe take it with a grain of salt, but this is starting to sound worse.

OK, it gets ugly at the end.  Take out the ACL?  Beat on his head?  Put his ankles over?  Whether or not he was paying for it the guy had to go.  Now I understand that that is just Williams and he's not there any more, but head coach and GM ultimately take some of the blame for the people they put into place.

No, no, you just don't understand. He didn't mean any of that. You don't speak Greg Williams.

[The Prowler]

”kill the head”...means hit him in the head hard enough to give him a concussion. You know...one of the lawsuits against the NFL by the players.

[RWS]

It is. Well, except when we read something you don't agree with, apparently.

The shit is painfully obvious. You're basically saying "Well, if you take away all of the evidence that proves there was a bounty system, then they don't have anything." How many pages do they have to have before it is considered evidence? It's like saying a minor can't be arrested for MIP because he only had half of a beer, like somebody can't be arrested for possession of marijuana because they only had a joint. It doesn't matter if it was a half of a page of evidence. If "Here's 100g....see you in April" were written on a napkin from Nick Saban to Julio Jones and the NCAA then investigated Saban for paying Julio, would you believe me if I told you Saban was simply giving him 100 Gatorades? Would you believe me if I told you Saban was just joking around?

If a woman was shot in the back of the head and later a document was found between the husband and some guy that said "250 large and I'll take care of her", would you believe me if I told you that meant he only likes to fuck women 250 pounds and larger? If it is only one document, does it not count as evidence?

They lied. They got caught. Deal with it. You're like one of those guys who gets caught with weed and says "Uhhhh.....these aren't my pants." Or like a kid that says he didn't steal something after you show him a video of him stealing something. You just don't get it man.

Everyone in this thread (sans Snaggle & I) must live in this town and go to this bar.

That should tell you two things:

1. You're being a total dumbass.
2. Snaggle just feels sorry for you.

[AUChizad]

Ok.

It's me who doesn't get it.

Me and virtually every columnist who has covered the story on ESPN, NBC, CBS, Yahoo, etc.

Or as RWS likes to refer to them, "message boards".

[RWS]

Ok.

It's me who doesn't get it.

F I N A L L Y!

[AUChizad]

CBSSports just doesn't get it...

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/mike-freeman/19397660/grading-all-of-the-saints-bounty-evidence

Grading all of the Saints bounty evidence

By Mike Freeman | National NFL Insider
June 21, 2012 3:39 pm ET

Does all of this evidence add up to an open-and-shut case for the NFL? Not necessarily.

It's time to take a close look at all of the evidence in the Saints bounty case. An extremely close look.

I took all of the exhibits turned over to the union – 16 in all – and gave them grades, Pete Prisco style.

My belief has long been that the league has the goods on players but is keeping the best stuff under wraps to protect the identities of informants. I still believe this.

And remember: the league got a great deal of its information from Gregg Williams and Williams has yet to refute anything the NFL has said about him.

But I also cannot argue with the Saints who believe the league hasn't just failed to make its case, it exaggerated it.

The grades are based solely on proof of a bounty system in which Saints players were paid to injure with ‘A' being explicit proof and ‘F' being no proof at all.

There were no A's.

There were lots of F's.

Exhibit 1: These are the transcribed handwritten notes. The NFL won't say the source. They are dollar amounts assigning, for example, $2,000 to Jonathan Vilma and $5,000 to Mike Ornstein. The total is $11,500.

The problem is: we don't know the source of this information. And since we don't know the true source, the information is extremely questionable.

Grade: F

Exhibit 2: This is the Mike Ornstein e-mail to Williams. It reads: “D—khead I gave you 1500 last week, I will give you another 1500 the next 4 game, and the final 2000 the last 4.”

The NFL says this e-mail corroborates other evidence that proves a bounty system was in place. Despite Ornstein now saying the e-mail was a joke, which is a joke in itself, this e-mail is actually somewhat compelling.

Ornstein wrote this e-mail believing no one would ever see it. And what exactly is that money for? Groceries.

Grade: B

Exhibit 3: Almost all of this exhibit is absolutely worthless. The NFL says one piece of it, a listing of dollar amounts, is proof of a bounty system, and is corroborated. But it really proves nothing.

Grade: F

Exhibit 4: More of the same.

Grade: F

Exhibit 5: This lists the various Saints players and money amounts they earned and had deducted for various hits, plays and errors and contains language like “whacks.” This evidence is actually compelling because it contains this: “Harper =cart-off 1000.”

Harper would be safety Roman Harper. The union says cart-off doesn't actually mean what it sounds like it means. They say it means hard hit but that's peeing on my head and telling me it's raining. Cart-off means freaking cart-off.

But the rest of the exhibit proves nothing so it's a highly mixed bag.

Grade: C Note: As I mentioned and proved before, Harper didn't remove anyone from the Giants game, so if he got paid for a "cart-off" hit, then "cart-off" certainly has a different definition than what is assumed. Also, Harper was not one of the players punished.

Exhibit 6: Almost identical to five. The NFL says these exhibits are proof of dues paid into a bounty system. They say coaches told them this, among others. But this exhibit doesn't prove that and doesn't contain the vital cart-off language that would demonstrate the Saints were trying to injure.

Grade: F

Exhibit 7: Is an envelope with handwritten notes. It has notation that says Vilma received $400 for two whacks minus $200 for a mental error with the words “gave back to kitty pool.” This is again proof that something was being funded but no proof of a pay to injure scheme.

Grade: F

Exhibit 8: Most of this exhibit is of the Saints' defensive schemes and some fiery lingo. There is mention of “kitty” money but, again, no proof of pay-to-injure.

Grade: F

Exhibit 9: More motivational stuff (“stop the f------ run!”). But there is something important in this exhibit. Listed are the 2010 “kill the head” totals. It's a simple column that has player names and then the phrase “kill the heads” with numbers underneath. Vilma, for example, had 62 kill the heads.

The union says “kill the head” is hyperbole and goes back to language used by some of the great defensive Saints teams in the 1990s. But again, this makes no sense. Kill the head means kill the head. It means Williams was instruction players to hit the head. It's common sense. It's good information but since there are no money amounts listed as well it's not rock solid proof of a pay-to-injure plan.

This is also the exhibit that contained the Dog the Bounty Hunter photograph. While that's funny, and ridiculous, it's also an interesting choice. Saints players and coaches say there was no bounty program, no semblance of one, not even close. But if there wasn't, why use a bounty hunter as a symbol?

Grade: B+

Exhibit 10: This is the most controversial exhibit. There are many different layers here and none of them good for the NFL.

The key part of this exhibit is the chart that details alleged bounty payouts. I'm told by a source close to the situation that this information came from the infamous ledger. One of the key pieces of information from this exhibit is about assistant Joe Vitt and says “Vitt--$5,000 QB out pool.”

Many of us in the media pointed to this as a key component in the NFL's case. It seemed like proof, hardened proof, of a bounty system. When the NFL invited a dozen members of the media into its offices this was presented as proof as well. Seemed open and shut except it wasn't.

The NFL later admitted it wasn't able to corroborate that Vitt had actually done what the notation seemed to indicate that he had done. The NFL didn't make this fact particularly clear to the group of media and instead led us to believe this was in fact proof. This destroyed the league's credibility on this exhibit.

Grade: Big, fat, giant F

Exhibit 11: More game fees dollar amounts but again, no true proof of anything.

(Best part of this exhibit is a quote used by Williams: “Put your foot on the neck of the fear of criticism by reaching a decision of not worrying about what people think, do or say!” –Country Boy Wisdom

Grade: Incomplete

Exhibit 12: This riveting exhibit contains this highly inflammatory note from Williams to the players: “Meeting room cleanliness. Bus your trays back to the cafeteria! Don't leave food in the rooms! Throw out plastic silverware.” All of that is followed by a smiley face.

Grade: F

Exhibit 13: More notes about donations to some sort of pool but again zero proof of pay to injure.

Best part of exhibit was this quote on a sheet before one of their games: “Media this week: Keep Your F------ Mouth Shut.”

Grade: F

Exhibit 14: This is the controversial game footage in which the NFL claims Anthony Hargrove says “give me my money” after Vitt informs a small group of defenders that Brett Favre was knocked out of the game. Again, the media watched this on a large screen in the NFL's offices. No, you cannot see Hargrove's lips move but the voice that says the words sound a great deal like Hargrove's. A great deal. It sounds exactly like Hargrove to me.

However, it is still fair to say that if you can't see Hargrove's lips moving, how can you prove it was him? And if the NFL got this wrong it is also fair to wonder what else they screwed up.

Grade: Incomplete Note: As mentioned before, Hargrove wasn't involved in that play http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcnorth/post/_/id/43004/odd-timing-on-hargroves-payment-request

Exhibit 15: A blog post from Sean Pamphilon. This is beyond worthless.

Grade: F

Exhibit 16: An article from the New Orleans Times-Picayune in which Saints linebacker Scott Shanle says a bounty program existed but that the NFL exaggerated its claims. Why this is included as proof is curious. It almost helps the Saints.

Grade: D

So, in total, the 16 exhibits of the NFL's bounty evidence turned over to the union gets grades of F, B, F, F, C, F, F, F, B+, F, incomplete, F, F, incomplete, F, D.

In all, the NFL's evidence turned over to the union won't be making the honor roll.

[Kaos]

You've lost your mind on this one Chizad. 

GUILTY.  Send them all to pound me in the ass prison. 

If you isolate each exhibit, maybe... MAYBE ... you can argue differently. 

But what happens when you turn five blind men loose on an elephant?  One says it's a snake, one says it's a column, one says it's a wall, one says it's a large fan and one says it's a rope.  But it's STILL a fucking elephant, capice? 

[JR4AU]

You've lost your mind on this one Chizad. 

GUILTY.  Send them all to pound me in the ass prison. 

If you isolate each exhibit, maybe... MAYBE ... you can argue differently. 

But what happens when you turn five blind men loose on an elephant?  One says it's a snake, one says it's a column, one says it's a wall, one says it's a large fan and one says it's a rope.  But it's STILL a fucking elephant, capice?

You use your mouth purdier than a $20 whore.

[GH2001]

Correct me if I'm wrong chad but I thought you hated Espn and most other outlets. Now they are legit?

[The Prowler]

Exihibts 2, 5 & 9 are three too many and it's the reason why they got nailed, plus they were made aware that the NFL was watching them, but they continued on with their ”Bounty System.”

[Saniflush]

Correct me if I'm wrong chad but I thought you hated Espn and most other outlets. Now they are legit?

Well they have a Wiki page now. 

[GH2001]

CBSSports just doesn't get it...

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/mike-freeman/19397660/grading-all-of-the-saints-bounty-evidence

And that little grading system is all subjective. Who decides what grades they get? What if I say they all get A's and B's? It all depends on which side you stand that determines how you want to paint the picture.