"Who Dat" Bounty Games...

[The Prowler]

The NFL should yank that Lombardi Trophy from the Saints.

[JR4AU]

The NFL should yank that Lombardi Trophy from the Saints.

No.  They will, however, come down hard on Williams, and Payton, unless Payton can convince them he didn't know, which I doubt. 

Williams apparently had this go on elsewhere on his watch.  He may be effectively banned from the NFL, for something that goes on everywhere (from what I'm hearing) in the league to some degree or other.  The NFL will find the proper sacrificial lamb, and make him an example.   I think one thing that may be considered will be how many illegal hits, and how many players have had season/career ending injuries vs the Saints.  If it's not an inordinate number, they may simply consider it a "bounty" for big hits, and not to cause injury, which I think is where the real line is crossed.  If they get some players willing to rat, and say they were paying out bounties for injuries, then it could be bad.  Maybe that's already come out, I don't know.  I know that fuck stick Kyle Turley is running his cock holster about it.  I hate rats as much as I do the bad guys.

[Townhallsavoy]

Payton's still seen as a savior to New Orleans just like Brees.  I doubt he gets hit with much.  I would be really surprised.

Williams?  Yeah.  He's got to go.  And that's another reason why I think Payton gets off easy.  If he gets brought along with Williams, then Fisher has to get hit too.

[AUChizad]

Payton's still seen as a savior to New Orleans just like Brees.  I doubt he gets hit with much.  I would be really surprised.

Williams?  Yeah.  He's got to go.  And that's another reason why I think Payton gets off easy.  If he gets brought along with Williams, then Fisher has to get hit too.

Williams is gone.

He's the St. Louis Rams's problem now.

[Townhallsavoy]

Williams is gone.

He's the St. Louis Rams's problem now.

I meant from the NFL. 

[AWK]

My thoughts have pretty much been covered.

It's being overblown for a time in sports when there's not a lot going on to talk about.

"Some form of this goes on in every NFL locker room."

Also, Gregg Williams is the coach involved, and he's gone. Fuck him.

I don't believe Payton had shit to do with it.

...You can't be serious...

[AUChizad]

Williams, maybe.

Payton, no.

At least not to hurt anybody.

Honestly, I feel like the whole thing is a bunch of overblown bullshit.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/football/nfl/03/05/bounty.redskins.cash.ap/index.html

Redskins: Williams offered cash-for-hits

WASHINGTON (AP) -- It seems the Washington Redskins have been doing more than just calling out formations between plays in recent seasons. They've also been setting the going rate for big hits.

"If the game was on the line and we had to kick off," said Steve Jackson, a Redskins assistant coach for eight years before he was dismissed in January, "there would be players that would come into the special teams huddle and say, `If you get a tackle inside the 20-yard line, hey, that's 500 bucks.' And they would do the same thing in practice and everything. It was just the culture. Players trying to get each other motivated."

Redskins players told similar stories Monday, even as the team's former defensive coordinator, Gregg Williams, met with NFL investigators looking into the big-money bounty program he ran while holding the same position with the New Orleans Saints. While they offered intriguing details of how money changed hands - in a way that happens to violate NFL rules - those who spoke to The Associated Press said there was no outright bounty system in place when Williams was with the team from 2004-07.

"I've never seen a player get any money for hurting anybody," said Kedric Golston, a defensive lineman for the Redskins since 2006. "Gregg did fine people, and he'd pay out. It would be if you got a sack or an interception, or you made a pivotal play. He did fine us, and he did give that money back for doing things `the right way' - as he liked to put it."

Linebacker Lorenzo Alexander said a player could get rewards for knocking a player out of a game, but only after the fact - not as part of a pre-meditated "bounty."

"If you have, like, a big hit, you could possibly get a kitty," Alexander said. "But not to say, `You have to knock this player out,' and knock him out of the game with an injury. So it wasn't a bounty-type thing."

The money didn't come from the official fines announced by the team or the league - those are deducted from paychecks and given to charity - but instead from in-house gaffes, such as being late for a meeting or dropping an interception. Much of it was player-run, or, as Golston put it: ""It was how we policed ourselves."

"Each (position) group had a little kitty," Alexander said. "If you do something stupid, you pay 20 bucks into it and then, from time to time, whoever's the veteran or whoever's the leader in that room would say, `Whoever gets an interception, you get an X amount of dollars from the kitty.' It was nothing malicious."

Alexander said the fines would sometimes get too big for cash, so the offender would write a check instead.

"You have some guys, like the top-echelon guys, that make a lot of good money," the player said, "they'll say, `OK, this week I got $1,000 for whoever gets a sack or whoever gets an interception to the house.' And they'll take that out of their own personal (stash) and give it to them."

Jackson compared such motivational ploys to the "hit stick" that the Redskins for years have given to the player who makes the biggest hit on special teams in a victory.

"We had hit sticks," Jackson said. "We had an `easy boy' recliner. You name it - every motivational bribe - but I don't remember any bounties."

But "bounties" is the exact word used by former Redskins safety Matt Bowen, who wrote on the topic on Friday in a column in the Chicago Tribune. Bowen wrote of prices that "were set on Saturday nights in the team hotel" when he played for the Redskins in the 2004-05 seasons.

"We targeted big names, our sights set on taking them out of the game," Bowen wrote.

Jackson said he doesn't recall anything of the sort, at least from Williams.

"I really don't remember him saying if you intentionally hurt somebody, you're going to get paid," Jackson said.

Jackson takes particular exception to the notion that a bounty system might have led to Peyton Manning's current injury problems. Speculation has it that the Indianapolis Colts quarterback first started having neck trouble when he was sacked by Phillip Daniels and Andre Carter in a game against the Redskins in 2006.

"Phillip Daniels is one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet. Andre Carter, another one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet," Jackson said. "They're not necessarily the most violent guys. And to think that Gregg waved a dollar bill out there and all of a sudden they turned into killers? It wasn't Antonio Pierce and Sean Taylor. It was probably two of the nicest most poetry-reading guys on the team."

Neither Daniels nor Carter returned calls seeking comment Monday.

Those higher up in the Redskins chain also denied knowledge of a bounty system under Williams. Joe Gibbs, the head coach when Williams was the defensive coordinator, told The Washington Post he was "not aware of anything like this." Vinny Cerrato, who oversaw the front office during that period, said essentially the same.

"I had no idea that this was going on. I never attended a defensive meeting," Cerrato told the AP. "I think that there are certain things that have gone on for a long time, but not to the extent that people are talking about with trying to put players out. I think when you're trying to injure players, that's not within the rules."

The current Redskins organization, including owner Dan Snyder, has declined to comment.

Williams is facing potentially severe punishment after admitting he ran a bounty pool of up to $50,000 over the last three seasons that rewarded players for knocking targeted opponents out of games while he was with the Saints. The NFL is surely looking to see if he did the same with the Redskins and at his other stops around the league.

But, as it turns out, even those $500 payouts for tackles inside the 20 are against the rules. The NFL warns teams against such practices before each season.

To Jackson, however, that seems as innocuous as a certain gambling obsession that strikes Americans this time of year.

"I'll tell you this," Jackson said. "We also had an office bracket on the March Madness, too. And everybody in the whole building would put in on it."

http://www.nola.com/saints/index.ssf/2012/03/former_saints_safety_darren_sh.html

Former Saints safety Darren Sharper tells NFL Network players never got money to hurt opponents
03/02/12 7:50PM
The Times-Picayune

Former New Orleans Saints safety Darren Sharper, who was a ball-hawking member of the Saints' squad that won the Super Bowl following the 2009 season, gave an interview to the NFL Network on Friday night and said the NFL's assertion that the Saints had a bounty program doesn't make sense to him.

When asked if he ever received extra money for hurting member of an opposing team?

"No, never for hurting a member of the opposite team. But that year, 2009, the amount of plays that I made that year, best believe I got some money off my teammates for making interceptions and scoring touchdowns."

Did he ever put money into a pot that ultimately went toward players who did hurt members of opposing team?

"No, no. And the thing about that situation is that it doesn't make any sense to me that they're saying there was a bounty put on hurting guys during a game. Because the math doesn't make sense. The amount that you would get fined for taking a cheap shot at a guy exponentially is higher than what the amount of money that a bounty could be from a $500 bounty to a couple hundred dollar bounty. So that doesn't make sense at all to me to say that guys would go out there to intentionally hurt guys. Because they're going to hurt themselves and their career, hurt their own pockets. And guys knew that. Especially the ones I was playing with with the Saints because when Commissioner Goodell came in, the amount of fines increased so much that guys were scared to go out there and play real football. So no one put a bounty in for hurting guys. It was all about if you make the first interception in this game or if you make a sack, guys in the locker room would say, 'OK, well put a couple hundred dollars here, a couple hundred dollars there for making a great play.'"

So when Gregg Williams apologized, what is he referring to?

"He's referring to us being in the meeting room and stand up and saying, 'OK, the first guy that makes an interception in this game, the first guy that causes a fumble in this game, the first guy that scores a touchdown. Defensive backs, how much are you going to pay that guy that makes that play?' And just the fact that Gregg was the overseer, he was the moderator, he was the guy in the room as the coach that could have controlled that and knowing that, OK, this is against league rules, that we should just cut this out. ... but that was just for making big plays in the game. And that was somehtingt that happened since I came into the league since 1997, when I came into the league with the Green Bay Packers. It happened since the beginning of time."

Is there something for Williams to apologize for?

"Yeah, especially with the league now, with Commissioner Goodell saying he doesn't want any of that, even if it's a dollar ... that's what I believe he's the most apologetic about, because he knew that was happening."

Did Vilma have a $10,000 bounty on Brett Favre?

"I was in no way aware of that, and I would like to have seen that happen. But nowadays I would like to grab that $10,000 and ran up out of the room. So you best believe that no one was throwing $10,000 on the table and was putting for a bounty ona guy. I do not recollect that happening at all."

Are you concerned it will tarnish what the team accomplished?

"Yeah, that's what I'm most disappointed about is that a guy that was in the room or that was a part of that team is coming out and trying to tarnish what we were a part of that year. Because the style of football we played was a tough, hard-nosed brand of football. Something that's really changing these days in the NFL. And that's what I'm most disappointed about is that someone would come out and try to bring down what we accomplished. ... it appalls me, it upsets me, and I would like to find out who that guy is. Maybe I'd put a hat on and take a shot at him."

Cam Newton-esque baseless bullshit and hyperbole. Hata's hating, etc. etc.

[Townhallsavoy]

There's still going to be a sacrificial lamb.  And this will be the new topic in the NFL for the next few years.  Someone will try to get the scoop and catch a team in the act.

I wonder if when the Jets were doing that Hard Knocks special they said anything that resembled this "bounty" bullshit.

[Kaos]

I would like to see the franchise shut down permanently. 

I would like to watch the Raiders (of old) laugh from their wheelchairs and motorized scooters at this event. 

I would like to see Al Davis belch mocking fire from his perch in the afterlife as the doors to the dome were nailed shut. 

Editor's Note: I fucking loaaaaaaaaaaaaaathe the Saints

[JR4AU]

Payton's still seen as a savior to New Orleans just like Brees.  I doubt he gets hit with much.  I would be really surprised.

Williams?  Yeah.  He's got to go.  And that's another reason why I think Payton gets off easy.  If he gets brought along with Williams, then Fisher has to get hit too.

Been hearing some rumblings from the extreme crowd that Brees should be suspended too because he's a player rep, knew, and did nothing.

Hearing Stan White talk about OL having a "bonus system" for pancake blocks, and other plays, then at the end of the season, the OL would take all the QBs to dinner at a high dollar NY steak joint with the bonus money.   Seems to me, that the majority of players I hear say these types of bonus deals are common, but a bonus for "injuring" crosses the line.

[GH2001]

...You can't be serious...

THIS

At the least, he knew it was going on and failed to do anything about it personally. Agree or not, ask Joe Paterno how that worked out for him.

And it doesn't matter how Payton is viewed in NO, it matters how pissed off Goodell gets about it and the image of the NFL. If he can, he will lay the smack down hard on anyone who knew.

[djsimp]

THIS

At the least, he knew it was going on and failed to do anything about it personally. Agree or not, ask Joe Paterno how that worked out for him.

And it doesn't matter how Payton is viewed in NO, it matters how pissed off Goodell gets about it and the image of the NFL. If he can, he will lay the smack down hard on anyone who knew.

Goodell for the most part comes across as a no nonsense kinda guy. I'm pretty sure that even though the Saints are not the only team nor will they be the last team to have a "bounty" system, they will most certainly be made the example.

[JR4AU]

THIS

At the least, he knew it was going on and failed to do anything about it personally. Agree or not, ask Joe Paterno how that worked out for him.

And it doesn't matter how Payton is viewed in NO, it matters how pissed off Goodell gets about it and the image of the NFL. If he can, he will lay the smack down hard on anyone who knew.

Somebody is going to pay a high price, and be made an example of, but I doubt it will be Payton.   The quote by the asst. coach in one of THS's posts about it being part of the culture is key here.  That says it all.  This goes on, has gone on, and everybody on the inside knows it, including Goodell.  Goodell is going to have to craft a punishment for somebody or somebodies, that doesn't hamstring a franchise for something that everybody is doing in some form or fashion.  Then there will be a closed door meeting telling everybody to shut the fuck up about such things.

[Snaggletiger]

The key to all of this IMO is whether or not there were actually bounties available for injuries.  Many of the comments I've read in those articles have the players saying they could get paid for good plays, sacks, tackles inside the 20 etc. Hell, even ringing someone's bell with a bone crunching hit.  Like Sani said, these guys are already getting paid to do just that.  Dwight Freeney is paid millions to come off the end and nail the QB.  Terrell Suggs is paid big $$$ to jack up the running back.  I see nothing wrong with coaches and players getting up a "Bounty" pool of money and making it even more interesting and giving them even more motivation to make big plays.  As long as there's no intent to injure, have at it.  They're already professionals.

[AU_Tiger_2000]

The key to all of this IMO is whether or not there were actually bounties available for injuries. Many of the comments I've read in those articles have the players saying they could get paid for good plays, sacks, tackles inside the 20 etc. Hell, even ringing someone's bell with a bone crunching hit.  Like Sani said, these guys are already getting paid to do just that.  Dwight Freeney is paid millions to come off the end and nail the QB.  Terrell Suggs is paid big $$$ to jack up the running back.  I see nothing wrong with coaches and players getting up a "Bounty" pool of money and making it even more interesting and giving them even more motivation to make big plays.  As long as there's no intent to injure, have at it.  They're already professionals.

There was a $1500 bonus for "cart off" hits.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/17619056/saints-owner-not-backing-off-support-for-payton-in-bounty-scandal

Payoffs were made for inflicting game-ending injuries on targeted players, including quarterbacks Brett Favre and Kurt Warner. "Knockouts," in which a player was knocked out of the game, were worth $1,500 and "cart-offs," in which players had to be helped off the field, were worth $1,000. Payments doubled or tripled for the playoffs.

[JR4AU]

There was a $1500 bonus for "cart off" hits.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/17619056/saints-owner-not-backing-off-support-for-payton-in-bounty-scandal

I agree with Snags.  How you going to prove "intent to injure" vs "intent to do your job at an extremely high level"?  Nothing wrong with a DE blindsiding a QB with a vicious hit within the rules.  If the QB is knocked silly, so be it, it's part of the game.  T Bell's hit on McGinger in the 2010 IB wasn't illegal.

[Snaggletiger]

I agree with Snags.  How you going to prove "intent to injure" vs "intent to do your job at an extremely high level"?  Nothing wrong with a DE blindsiding a QB with a vicious hit within the rules.  If the QB is knocked silly, so be it, it's part of the game.  T Bell's hit on McGinger in the 2010 IB wasn't illegal.

It wasn't illegal....it was glorious!!!

[djsimp]

I agree with Snags.  How you going to prove "intent to injure" vs "intent to do your job at an extremely high level"?  Nothing wrong with a DE blindsiding a QB with a vicious hit within the rules.  If the QB is knocked silly, so be it, it's part of the game.  T Bell's hit on McGinger in the 2010 IB wasn't illegal.

You being a lawyer you could answer that fairly easy. I agree with you, somebody is going to be made an example and its likely gonna be one that hurts pretty bad.

[JR4AU]

You being a lawyer you could answer that fairly easy. I agree with you, somebody is going to be made an example and its likely gonna be one that hurts pretty bad.

Proving intent to injure out in the world is a far different animal from proving it on an NFL gridiron.

[AU_Tiger_2000]

I agree with Snags.  How you going to prove "intent to injure" vs "intent to do your job at an extremely high level"?  Nothing wrong with a DE blindsiding a QB with a vicious hit within the rules.  If the QB is knocked silly, so be it, it's part of the game.  T Bell's hit on McGinger in the 2010 IB wasn't illegal.

The only thing I have to say about it is that if you are playing within the realm of the rules and making clean hits then why do you need a bounty?  If it's about rewarding good play then put it in the contract.  If I say "$1500 if Favre leaves on the cart" and I'm the coach isn't that telling the players that I want to see Favre out of the game and I'm not real particular about how it happens?