Kaos' Douchey Sopranos Debate...

[GH2001]

The Sopranos is, to me, the greatest show ever (with the exception of season 6 which is essentially Godfather 3.  I pretend it didn't happen).  I refused to let anything keep me from watching an original episode.

You are full of shit. Blue Comet (2nd to last episode) is one of the best episodes of the entire series. The ending is brilliant.

Wes, when and where does this show come on? I will give it a whirl.

[wesfau2]

Wes, when and where does this show come on? I will give it a whirl.

Sunday nights, 9pm, AMC.

You will want to at least watch the mini-episodes on the AMC website to get up to speed.

[War Eagle!!!]

Sunday nights, 9pm, AMC.

You will want to at least watch the mini-episodes on the AMC website to get up to speed.

This is what I did with the first 2 seasons and then watched the third season in it's entirety. I would recommend doing this since also...

[Kaos]

You are full of shit. Blue Comet (2nd to last episode) is one of the best episodes of the entire series. The ending is brilliant.

Wes, when and where does this show come on? I will give it a whirl.

All due respect?  You either didn't watch or appreciate the preceding five seasons. 

The ending is brilliant but completely contrary to the entire arc of the series. 

Blue Comet?  Bleh. 

Pine Barrens
Funhouse
From Where to Eternity
Army of One
The Weight
Whoever Did This
All Due Respect
The Knight in White Satin Armor
Long Term Parking

All among the best television ever aired. 

The storyline arcs in Season 6 were just bad. 

Johnnycakes and Vito fucks a gay fireman?  No thank you.
Eugene's suicide?  Better and would have been great in another show, but not in this one.
The whole death/dream sequence?  Fair.  Just not great.
Tony forgetting the rules and skull fucking people for talking about Meadow? No.
The fight with Bobby, the whole stupid 'Cleaver' thing...  And then every major character but but the immediate Soprano family (Tony, Carm, Meadow and AJ) is either killed or incapacitated.

PFFFFFFFFFFTTTTTTTTTTTT............

That's not great television, that's a cop out. 

In the last four episodes Uncle Junior becomes a vegatable shell, Chrissy is dead, Bobby is dead, Sil is in limbo, Johnny Sack gets Shane'd, Phil Leotardo is skulled, Melfi is out of the picture....   Carmine is already gone, Adriana is already gone, Jackie Jr. gone, Pussy gone, Vito gone, Richie gone, Jackie gone, Tony B gone, etc. etc. etc. 

Total cop out. 

The only episode that bore its weight in Season 6 was Mr and Mrs Sacrimoni request. 

End it with the last show of season five. 

[GH2001]

All due respect?  You either didn't watch or appreciate the preceding five seasons. 

The ending is brilliant but completely contrary to the entire arc of the series. 

Blue Comet?  Bleh. 

Pine Barrens
Funhouse
From Where to Eternity
Army of One
The Weight
Whoever Did This
All Due Respect
The Knight in White Satin Armor
Long Term Parking

All among the best television ever aired. 

The storyline arcs in Season 6 were just bad. 

Johnnycakes and Vito fucks a gay fireman?  No thank you.
Eugene's suicide?  Better and would have been great in another show, but not in this one.
The whole death/dream sequence?  Fair.  Just not great.
Tony forgetting the rules and skull fucking people for talking about Meadow? No.
The fight with Bobby, the whole stupid 'Cleaver' thing...  And then every major character but but the immediate Soprano family (Tony, Carm, Meadow and AJ) is either killed or incapacitated.

PFFFFFFFFFFTTTTTTTTTTTT............

That's not great television, that's a cop out. 

In the last four episodes Uncle Junior becomes a vegatable shell, Chrissy is dead, Bobby is dead, Sil is in limbo, Johnny Sack gets Shane'd, Phil Leotardo is skulled, Melfi is out of the picture....   Carmine is already gone, Adriana is already gone, Jackie Jr. gone, Pussy gone, Vito gone, Richie gone, Jackie gone, Tony B gone, etc. etc. etc. 

Total cop out. 

The only episode that bore its weight in Season 6 was Mr and Mrs Sacrimoni request. 

End it with the last show of season five.

I've seen the first five seasons more than 6 actually. I agree the writing wasn't as creative but still better than most everything else out there. All of that crazy shit had to happen for that last scene to happen. Cleaver was stupid but I think it was part of them painting Chrissy as an outsider so they could rid of him with validation. If anything you had 5 seasons of great shows and Chase tried to wrap it all up too fast in one last season.

I didn't like the Vito or Puss angles. Same with Bobby's ending. All likable characters. They could have did those differently. But sometimes I think it was all intertwined for a reason. Vito becomes gay. Phil hates gays, Phil kills Vito for dishonoring his family. But Phil? Fuck him. Ritchie too. Hated to see Johnny Sack get written off. He was one of the great characters of the show.

Didn't too much care for Melfi or Adrianna personally, but Adrianna was a hot piece of ass. Blow and all.

BTW - the entire Soprano family didn't make it. Tony was killed. Fact. The people who don't get the last scene and the foreshadowing that led to it baffle me.

[Kaos]

BTW - the entire Soprano family didn't make it. Tony was killed. Fact. The people who don't get the last scene and the foreshadowing that led to it baffle me.

You've lost your fucking mind.

Even David Chase said that wasn't the ending.  YOU missed it.  You looked for things that weren't there.

Maybe he was.  Maybe he wasn't.  Your call. 

I must say that even people who liked it misinterpreted it, to a certain extent. This wasn't really about ''leaving the door open.'' There was nothing definite about what happened, but there was a clean trend on view — a definite sense of what Tony and Carmela's future looks like. Whether it happened that night or some other night doesn't really matter.

I choose to believe that life went on and they were as they always were.  Corrupt to the core, always with some threat lurking just around the corner. 

For the record every other killing on the show from start to finish either showed the killer pulling the trigger (figurative, it might have been a garrote) or the victim dying.  Why would it end NOT doing so?

[GH2001]

You've lost your fucking mind.

Even David Chase said that wasn't the ending.  YOU missed it.  You looked for things that weren't there.

Maybe he was.  Maybe he wasn't.  Your call. 
 

I choose to believe that life went on and they were as they always were.  Corrupt to the core, always with some threat lurking just around the corner. 

For the record every other killing on the show from start to finish either showed the killer pulling the trigger (figurative, it might have been a garrote) or the victim dying.  Why would it end NOT doing so?

He recanted that statement after that interview in 2007. He said the clues were all there. Even in the first episode of Season 6 "Members Only". In the boat with Bobby. The dumb mistakes he made like the beatdown of Coco over Meadow. All point to his demise, even though Phil was already dead. Plus there is the sequencing in the last scene with people coming in the door, him looking up, etc etc. He looks up the last time - darkness. Which is what there would be (to us) if one were dead/killed. It's what Tony saw. There is no other explanation. Nothing.

From 2008:

Richard Belzer: I was working with Steve Schirripa recently. We were judging Last Comic Standing for NBC and we were talking about a lot of different things, obviously. And he was saying that he heard all these theories about the show that weren't, had nothing to do with what your intention was or what any of the actors thought. Like little hints along the way. Like a word. Like when Tony and Steve are on the boat at the lake and they say "you can never know it's gonna happen" or "you never know when it's gonna hit you."

David Chase: That was part of the ending.

Richard Belzer: Oh, it was? You see, what do I know? Are there other things that were in previous episodes that were a hint towards it?

David Chase: There was that. And there was a shooting to which Silvio was a witness. Well, he wasn't a witness, he was eating dinner with a couple of hookers and some other guy who got hit and there was some visual stuff that went on there which sort of amplified Tony's remarks to Bacala about, you know, "you don't know it's happened" or "you won't know it happens when it hits you." That's about it

Tony was totally caught off guard in the diner looking up for Meadow. He didn't "know it happened when it hit him".

[Kaos]

He recanted that statement after that interview. He said the clues were all there. Even in the first episode of Season 6 "Members Only". In the boat with Bobby. The dumb mistakes he made like the beatdown of Coco over Meadow. All point to his demise. Plus there is the sequencing in the last scene with people coming in the door, him looking up, etc etc. He looks up the last time - darkness. Which is what there would be (to us) if one were dead/killed. It's what Tony saw. There is no other explanation. Nothing.

You've lost your fucking mind. 

He didn't recant anything.  That was his last statement on the subject, coming well after the "everything you saw was on the screen" statements. 

You fail to understand that the conversation with Bobby only reinforces the concept that he wasn't killed. 

Bobby saw his coming.  He saw it.  He heard it.  He felt it.  He knew it.   So that obviously wasn't true. 

No need to destroy the Breaking Bad thread with your wrongness. 

This is about as good a summation as you can find: 

http://coleslawblog.blogspot.com/2007/06/seven-reasons-why-theories-that-tony.html

[GH2001]

You've lost your fucking mind. 

He didn't recant anything.  That was his last statement on the subject, coming well after the "everything you saw was on the screen" statements. 

You fail to understand that the conversation with Bobby only reinforces the concept that he wasn't killed. 

Bobby saw his coming.  He saw it.  He heard it.  He felt it.  He knew it.   So that obviously wasn't true. 

No need to destroy the Breaking Bad thread with your wrongness. 
This is about as good a summation as you can find: 

http://coleslawblog.blogspot.com/2007/06/seven-reasons-why-theories-that-tony.html

Key sentence.

Apologies to THS, WE and Weskie.

You're still wrong though. Until you can explain to me the darkness.

Youve lost your touch dude. Coleslaw blog??? Seriously??

[Kaos]

Key sentence.

Apologies to THS, WE and Weskie.

You're still wrong though. Until you can explain to me the darkness.

Youve lost your touch dude. Coleslaw blog??? Seriously??

Coleslaw, tater salad, doesn't matter. It's explained extremely well there.  Doesn't matter what the source is, the explanation is spot on. 

BTW?  Your interview from 2007 is completely trumped by what I posted above.  It comes from October of 2009 and was Chase's last word on the subject. 

The dark doesn't mean anything.  It just means our look into that world is over.  There is no "ending" 

Click. 

[GH2001]

Coleslaw, tater salad, doesn't matter. It's explained extremely well there.  Doesn't matter what the source is, the explanation is spot on. 

BTW?  Your interview from 2007 is completely trumped by what I posted above.  It comes from October of 2009 and was Chase's last word on the subject. 

The dark doesn't mean anything.  It just means our look into that world is over.  There is no "ending" 

Click.

We could both be wrong. It could mean the hammer is about to fall on Auburn. That's most likely what it meant.

[Kaos]

That's the real beauty of it.

You DON'T know. 

Way back in season 1 (I think) Tony tells Melfi that there's two endings for a guy like him: taken down or prison. 

When the last show airs he tells Carmella that Carlo is going to testify.  There is the hint -- but ONLY a hint -- of threat.  You got to remember that in the six season history of the show there was never a killing by a "new" character.  Or if you didnt know the character you knew who gave the order and why  To have a random guy with unknown motivations and allegiances perform the coup de gras violates the core of the show. You ALWAYS knew who and why. ALWAYS.

Who was left to put a hit anyway?  Phil was dead.  He made peace with Butch -- who helped him find Phil.  Little Carmine was out.  He had no Jersey rivals.  Paulie? Furio come back for Carm?

Your theory makes NO sense and doesn't hold true to the series. 

Tony would go out one of two ways.  He believed it.  But then?  It's possible but absolutely not certain.  Also possible the Feds got him the next day.  Or Bobby"s kid capped him 20'years later to take over the family.  Or Benny made a move with the New York crew  ten years down the road. 

You saw what it was going to be like.  Could be something. Could be nothing. 

For the "deathers" Chase had this piece of advice: "youre trying too hard"

[GH2001]

 I believe kaos gets the credit here mods. Since he technically started the debate. Even though he's wrong. 

[Godfather]

[BZ770]

I remember watching the last episode and I was relieved to see the ending they aired.  Everybody lived on.  I remember reading they filmed several endings and none of the cast knew which one was airing.

[GH2001]

I remember watching the last episode and I was relieved to see the ending they aired.  Everybody lived on.  I remember reading they filmed several endings and none of the cast knew which one was airing.

Kaos may have thought this too, but when I watched it originally air, I thought my satellite had went out. I was pissed until I saw the credits roll, and was like 'ohhhhhhhh I see'. Bob Newhart has the most shocking ending I've seen on a tv show yet.

[Kaos]

Kaos may have thought this too, but when I watched it originally air, I thought my satellite had went out. I was pissed until I saw the credits roll, and was like 'ohhhhhhhh I see'. Bob Newhart has the most shocking ending I've seen on a tv show yet.

Originally I was pissed. 

It was only after I thought about what happened versus what I "anticipated" happening (which is what GH is doing) and realized what it all meant that I was okay with it. 

Newhart was good.   Most series end well after they've jumped the shark rendering their finales less than compelling. 

MASH was okay.  Magnum was good. 

Seinfeld's sucked.  Terrible.  St. Elsewhere blew donkey nuts.  Pathetic. 

Also bad?  Little House on the Prairie.  My mom watched that all the time.  Cried every week.  But when they turned into a terrorist organization at the end?  Went on a bombing spree?  Even my mom was like WTF?

[Kaos]

Just watched a random episode of The Sopranos. 

Reminded yet again that this was, by fucking FAR, the best series in the history of television.  Nothing comes close. 

The episode I watched was called "Eloise" from the fourth season.  Nothing happened, but everything did.  Not a single shot, not a single frame was wasted. 

Carm's personal frustration and dissatisfaction, Tony's obliviousness to it all, the brutal self-preserving essence of Paulie, the ruthless manipulative power of Johnny Sack, the yearning of Furio, the fading power of Carmine, the ineffectiveness of Little Carmine, the sluggishness of AJ, the emerging maturity of Meadow.... all captured in perfect clarity in an hour that really didn't go anywhere. 

It's not one of the top ten or even top 20 episodes of the series, but more of substance occurred in that one hour than in the entire series arc of most dramas -- Breaking Bad included. 

Everything else pales significantly to the absolute mastery of The Sopranos.   Its greatness makes it hard for me to watch other shows.

[GH2001]

Just watched a random episode of The Sopranos. 

Reminded yet again that this was, by fucking FAR, the best series in the history of television.  Nothing comes close. 

The episode I watched was called "Eloise" from the fourth season.  Nothing happened, but everything did.  Not a single shot, not a single frame was wasted. 

Carm's personal frustration and dissatisfaction, Tony's obliviousness to it all, the brutal self-preserving essence of Paulie, the ruthless manipulative power of Johnny Sack, the yearning of Furio, the fading power of Carmine, the ineffectiveness of Little Carmine, the sluggishness of AJ, the emerging maturity of Meadow.... all captured in perfect clarity in an hour that really didn't go anywhere. 

It's not one of the top ten or even top 20 episodes of the series, but more of substance occurred in that one hour than in the entire series arc of most dramas -- Breaking Bad included. 

Everything else pales significantly to the absolute mastery of The Sopranos.   Its greatness makes it hard for me to watch other shows.

I concur.

You are a lot like Little Carmine aren't you?

I'll admit though, the episodes where they were separated were some of my least favorite. And are still better than everything else out there.

[Kaos]

If I'm anybody there I'm more Paulie or Sil, probably. 

My job requires me to be Tony and I honestly completely get a lot of his angst, anger and confusion.  I've wondered, like he does, where all the good times went.  I get stupidly nostalgic over long forgotten songs on the radio, I'm constantly blindsided and often bewildered by the attitude and reactions I get from family members, work associates and others in the public. I empathsize with his lonliness and the vacant "is this really all there is" feelings of isolation.

My wife has at times tried to bar me from watching the show because in her words "you already blunder around just like he does anyway, why do you want to subject yourself to that?" 

At which point I ask her if she's fucking Furio and she gets pissed for a week or two. 

There was one scene in today's show that was almost a mirror image of my life.  He got her some tickets to a resort, a vacation and thought she'd be happy.  Instead, she pissed and moaned about having to pack and worrying about her mother's skin condition, blah, blah, blah.  Of course she's infatuated with Furio which is driving the attitude. 

Not that long ago I tried to surprise mine with a weekend away because she'd been working hard with her own education and helping the kids and thought she needed the break.  I got pissing and moaning about needing to buy sunscreen, having to figure out what to pack, that she had this project she needed to work on, who would take care of the kid's frog or feed the dogs, etc. etc. etc.  Just made it absolutely miserable.

I know that the look on his face was exactly the same as what I must have been wearing during that. 

Guess it's a blessing I don't have an Italian driver.