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Thoughts on the Fire Dept Debate

Tiger Wench

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Re: Thoughts on the Fire Dept Debate
« Reply #40 on: October 13, 2010, 11:36:40 AM »
I read another article about this today - the homeowner actually said "I figured that if I called them, they would still come put out the fire, even if I had not paid the fee..."

Boom.  He knew damn good and well.  Emotion aside, he screwed up.  Outside of an emergency room (and only there because the law requires them to provide care) I cannot think of a single service that someone will perform for free after the fact even though you chose not to be covered. 

Home damaged in a tornado?  Car damaged in a wreck?  Can't retroactively pay insurance.

Air conditioner quits because you forgot to pay for preventive maintenance?  Can't retroactively do maintenance.

Termites eat your home because you didn't pay for Terminex to maintain the bait system?   Not their fault.
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CCTAU

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Re: Thoughts on the Fire Dept Debate
« Reply #41 on: October 13, 2010, 01:19:37 PM »
Not the same at all.  The fact that this was put in the political forum and the reasoning used in some of the arguments smacks of trying to put this in the category of the sorry, irresponsible individual looking for a handout.  I wasn't responsible for my own actions but who cares?  I'm entitled.  You should take care of me anyway.  Sound familiar?  That's not what we're talking about here, though.

It is EXACTLY what we are talking about. Katrina set the new standard. Somehow people feel that they can be less responsible and still get the benefits of those who are not less responsible. In life we make mistakes. Hopefully we can all keep those mistakes out of the "horrific" category. Mr Cranick did not. He gambled, he lost. Why is it society's place to take care of everyone. to each should come personal responsibility.  This has been the left's mantra for years now. "Don't worry. We'll take care of you. We know you are too stupid and irresponsible to take care of yourself."
No personal responsibility creates a sorry society.
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Five statements of WISDOM
1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity, by legislating the wealth out of prosperity.
2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.
3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.
4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.
5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friends, is the beginning of the end of any nation.

CCTAU

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Re: Thoughts on the Fire Dept Debate
« Reply #42 on: October 13, 2010, 01:27:48 PM »
Nah, CCTAU will come to your rescue.

Is this another lawyer?

If so, why even bother to check if he is all the things mentioned. We know he's not just by association.


LET THE MAN BURN.


I would, however, save his wife. She probably feels the same as I do about him.  :rofl:


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Five statements of WISDOM
1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity, by legislating the wealth out of prosperity.
2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.
3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.
4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.
5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friends, is the beginning of the end of any nation.

AUTiger1

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Re: Thoughts on the Fire Dept Debate
« Reply #43 on: October 13, 2010, 01:33:35 PM »
Is this another lawyer?

If so, why even bother to check if he is all the things mentioned. We know he's not just by association.


LET THE MAN BURN.


I would, however, save his wife. She probably feels the same as I do about him.  :rofl:

No, not a lawyer. 
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It isn't that liberals are ignorant. It's just they know so much that isn't so. --Ronald Reagan

Tarheel

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Re: Thoughts on the Fire Dept Debate
« Reply #44 on: October 13, 2010, 02:28:12 PM »
I guess hindsight is not always 20/20.  Just something to consider...

What if a firefighter was hurt in the blaze after deciding to respond?  Knowing that the no-pay-no-service rule was known by everyone beforehand, who would pay for the firefighter's medical bills and disability?  The city/municipality insurance agreements may not cover injuries sustained in these circumstances.  At least from my perspective, that's enough of a reason to let the house burn. 

Of course, my thoughts are different if there's a chance that a person is requiring assistance in the burning home.

Well, again, this is good logic-based supposition and I'd agree with your reasoning completely. 

But, I do have to point out that the leftist, hopey-changey, feelings and emotion-based media would spin this scenario in a totally different way:  "The EVIL insurance company and the CORRUPT city officials (Republicans all) caused this poor, helpless family to loose their home by tying the hands of the heroic firefighters."

And this:
I read another article about this today - the homeowner actually said "I figured that if I called them, they would still come put out the fire, even if I had not paid the fee..."

Boom.  He knew damn good and well. 
...

coupled with this:

It is EXACTLY what we are talking about. Katrina set the new standard. Somehow people feel that they can be less responsible and still get the benefits of those who are not less responsible. In life we make mistakes. Hopefully we can all keep those mistakes out of the "horrific" category. Mr Cranick did not. He gambled, he lost. Why is it society's place to take care of everyone. to each should come personal responsibility.  This has been the left's mantra for years now. "Don't worry. We'll take care of you. We know you are too stupid and irresponsible to take care of yourself."
No personal responsibility creates a sorry society.

Tells me that the issue of personal responsibility is exactly what we're talking about with all due respect to those who disagree.
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AUTailgatingRules

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Re: Thoughts on the Fire Dept Debate
« Reply #45 on: October 13, 2010, 04:19:39 PM »
One more thing to look at:

Dude lived in a Mobile home.  By the time the fire dept would get there, the trailer would be a total loss anyways.  They act like the fire dept could have saved the whole fucking thing, simply not true, but helps the liberal spin
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RWS

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Re: Thoughts on the Fire Dept Debate
« Reply #46 on: October 18, 2010, 06:25:58 PM »
One more thing to look at:

Dude lived in a Mobile home.  By the time the fire dept would get there, the trailer would be a total loss anyways.  They act like the fire dept could have saved the whole fucking thing, simply not true, but helps the liberal spin
Just happened to notice this thread......

Bottom line: it doesn't matter. I don't give a shit if it was a cardboard box. It was somebody's home, and it was important to somebody. We have had structures burn to the ground before that were obvious goners by the time they were called in, but you know what? The owners have always been extremely thankful for the effort we put in, and it eases their pain to see an effort put forth, even if they know it's a lost cause. There has been alot of debate about this on some of the fire boards, and I can't believe some of my fellow firemen actually agree with this bullshit. Ok, so they didn't pay the $75 yearly service fee. So you have something in place that says if we have to respond to you and you didn't pay, we're going to bill you $5,000 or some crazy shit like that. FEMA has a listing of hourly rates for fire trucks, personnel, equipment, etc that should be charged for use during hurricanes, natural disasters, etc. Bill them based on those rates. I've been in the fire service for 11 years, and I am an assistant chief in our town's volunteer department. This sort of thing just makes me fucking ill.

Not everybody likes cops. Most everybody loves firemen. They see us as the universal solution to whatever has fucked up their little world that particular day. That's what we are supposed to be. Those are your people, and you stood there and watched their home burn down. You are a piece of shit, and the people higher up that allowed this to happen are bigger pieces of shit. We are here FOR THE PEOPLE, above all. Your department is short on cash? Go out there and raise some money. Our department busts our asses year round and raises around $60,000 in extra funds each year. We're probably the best equipped volunteer department in the county because of it. If you need extra cash, go earn it. I guarantee you that department has just fucked themselves out of a bunch of money in the future.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2010, 06:38:56 PM by RWS »
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Snaggletiger

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Re: Thoughts on the Fire Dept Debate
« Reply #47 on: October 19, 2010, 09:48:20 AM »
One of your best there scissors. 
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CCTAU

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Re: Thoughts on the Fire Dept Debate
« Reply #48 on: October 19, 2010, 01:42:38 PM »
It was somebody's home, and it was important to somebody.

Uhhh! Apparently not. It was not important enough to pay the $75 fire fee. So now I guess we should debate the meaning of important.

My family is very important to me. Therefore I pay the outrageous health insurance premium instead of buying a boat. That way if something along the lines of a medical emergency takes place, I do not waste time debating whether or not I am covered.

If something is truly important to you, you take the necessary steps to insure that the thing that is truly important to you is protected.
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Five statements of WISDOM
1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity, by legislating the wealth out of prosperity.
2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.
3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.
4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.
5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friends, is the beginning of the end of any nation.

RWS

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Re: Thoughts on the Fire Dept Debate
« Reply #49 on: October 19, 2010, 01:47:04 PM »
One of your best there scissors.
Shit like this gets me fired up man. Whatever happened to doing what's right, and helping people? What's so damn hard about being a decent human being? Everything is all about the money today. You didn't pay us $75? Well, we're going to let your house burn down. Granted, it was a goner when the fire started, but it's the principal of it. I bet you that sometime within the next 2 years, the unincorporated area around that municipality WILL have it's own volunteer fire department, though. But then again, part of the problem with the volunteer fire service over the past 5 years is everybody wants something. People just don't volunteer for things anymore. It takes something like this for people to want to get off of their asses and contribute something to their community. And still even then, they're doing it for themselves. Then they want you to kiss their ass for doing it. The way I see it is service is the "rent" we pay to take up space on God's green Earth.

For the most part, the ones that are volunteering nowadays are the ones who are doing it so they can have all kinds of gay firefighter stickers on their pickups, and want the novelty of being known as a firefighter. The percentage of people who will actually risk their life to help or save another is incredibly slim; the percentage of those who talk alot and say they would is incredibly high. Kids are just different nowadays. What's sad is I'm only 27, and things have changed that much from when I was a kid. It has to just about kill these guys in the service that are older than me and been there longer. Probably every 3-5 years we run across one guy who is very solid and you can see him in an officers position in the future.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2010, 01:57:11 PM by RWS »
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RWS

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Re: Thoughts on the Fire Dept Debate
« Reply #50 on: October 19, 2010, 02:11:43 PM »
Uhhh! Apparently not. It was not important enough to pay the $75 fire fee. So now I guess we should debate the meaning of important.

My family is very important to me. Therefore I pay the outrageous health insurance premium instead of buying a boat. That way if something along the lines of a medical emergency takes place, I do not waste time debating whether or not I am covered.

If something is truly important to you, you take the necessary steps to insure that the thing that is truly important to you is protected.
Have you ever forgot to pay a bill? Maybe a few days late on a bill? Maybe you forgot to renew your tag or drivers license on time. Maybe you forgot a birthday or anniversary. It doesn't make it any less important.

Should the guy have made sure the $75 was paid beforehand? Sure. As a fire officer, am I going to stand by idle as somebody's home burns to the ground over $75. No. As a policy maker, am I going to make a policy that would allow this situation to occur? No.
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AUTiger1

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Re: Thoughts on the Fire Dept Debate
« Reply #51 on: October 19, 2010, 02:24:13 PM »
Siccors, I get what you are saying.  I honestly do.  But you have to remember this...

Quote
the homeowner actually said "I figured that if I called them, they would still come put out the fire, even if I had not paid the fee..."

The point I think that everyone is trying to make is that he knowingly didn't pay the fee b/c he thought they would take care of it anyways and it bit him in the ass.

Yes, I have forgot to pay a bill, I came home form work one day a few years ago and there was no water.  Then I looked at the mail basket and realized that I had forgot to pay the last months water bill.  Was it important, yes, did I forget, yes.  This guy didn't forget, he just refused to pay.  I had to pay the last months bill, plus a $40 reconnect fee.  In other words, I paid them $40 to take a lock off the meter and turn the valve back on.  All I am saying is that this guy has admitted that he didn't pay, not that he forgot, but that he thought they would come out anyways even though he didn't pay the fee.
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Courage is only fear holding on a minute longer.--George S. Patton

There are gonna be days when you lay your guts on the line and you come away empty handed, there ain't a damn thing you can do about it but go back out there and lay em on the line again...and again, and again! -- Coach Pat Dye

It isn't that liberals are ignorant. It's just they know so much that isn't so. --Ronald Reagan

dallaswareagle

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Re: Thoughts on the Fire Dept Debate
« Reply #52 on: October 19, 2010, 02:25:28 PM »
And if the dude ain't gonna pay $75.00 what the hell makes you think he'd pay $5000.00?????
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A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to 'The United States of America ' for an amount of 'up to and including my life.' That is Honor, and there are way too many people in this country who no longer understand it.'

Tiger Wench

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Re: Thoughts on the Fire Dept Debate
« Reply #53 on: October 19, 2010, 02:39:06 PM »
RWS, the "right" thing happened when the municipality that was really nowhere close to this little unincorporated area generously and graciously OFFERED to extend service to these people in the first place, with a NOMINAL fee for doing so.  They did not have to do that.  They made him an offer he chose not to accept.  He got burned (pun intended) - his mistake.

I get where you are coming from with the humanity of it all.  But there are too damn many people in this country who refuse to take responsibility for their own actions!!  Too many people who want someone else to step in out of the goodness of their hearts and fix the fuck-ups of others!!  At some point, we will become a nation of nothing but freeloaders, unless something changes.  This was a teaching moment for a lot of people - I am glad it got national press.  And I would make a donation to the fire department for sticking to their guns.
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RWS

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Re: Thoughts on the Fire Dept Debate
« Reply #54 on: October 19, 2010, 03:20:16 PM »
RWS, the "right" thing happened when the municipality that was really nowhere close to this little unincorporated area generously and graciously OFFERED to extend service to these people in the first place, with a NOMINAL fee for doing so.  They did not have to do that.  They made him an offer he chose not to accept.  He got burned (pun intended) - his mistake.

I get where you are coming from with the humanity of it all.  But there are too damn many people in this country who refuse to take responsibility for their own actions!!  Too many people who want someone else to step in out of the goodness of their hearts and fix the fuck-ups of others!!  At some point, we will become a nation of nothing but freeloaders, unless something changes.  This was a teaching moment for a lot of people - I am glad it got national press.  And I would make a donation to the fire department for sticking to their guns.
Fire departments provide mutual aid to other municipalities and unincorporated areas free of charge every day across this country. There is an unincorporated area adjacent to our jurisdiction that over 75% of the time their fire department can't respond to calls in their own area, and we provide fire protection for them, and we don't charge them a dime to do it. When we have a structure fire, 3 other fire departments are paged out along with us for automatic aid. If any of those departments have a structure fire, we go to them. Hell, when we had a 7,800 gallon tanker years ago, a county in Florida requested us for a huge woods fire. The way we see it, we all get county taxpayer money to fund our departments. I guaran-fucking-tee you that the department that stood by while that home burned down runs some sort of mutual aid to another town or municipality, and doesn't charge a dime for it.

My point is, this goes all the way to the top. Sure, the guy that didn't pay the $75 bears some of the blame in this. The fact that the county had not stepped in long before this and either established a fire department, or entered into contract with this municipality that was providing the service, is mind boggling. People are stupid, and it is the job of those in power to save people from their own stupidity. The county should have stepped in long ago and not rely on these people to pay a fee. In a world where we are arguing about health care and other things, I know that isn't a popular notion and may sound utterly stupid to some of you. I just feel that everybody deserves the right to free emergency services such as police and fire protection. For the most part, everybody does have access to free police protection. Not so much with fire.

I understand your argument that we're a nation of people who want everybody else to fix our fuckups, and that's true. In general, I don't agree with it either. But you have to understand what we do, and the logic. In essence, we are responding to somebody else's fuckup. We are always responding to somebody else's mistake. We are expected to fix it, and we accept that notion by being in that particular line of service. We understand what we're getting into when we get in. It's just what we do.
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AUTailgatingRules

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Re: Thoughts on the Fire Dept Debate
« Reply #55 on: October 19, 2010, 03:36:43 PM »
Here's what the city fire department should do.

Starting January 1, 2010 they should no longer provide service for a fee to the unincorporated county.  Let the county figure out a way to provide their own fire service.  I'm betting it will cost each resident much more than $75
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Token

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Re: Thoughts on the Fire Dept Debate
« Reply #56 on: October 19, 2010, 03:57:50 PM »
Here's what the city fire department should do.

Starting January 1, 2010 they should no longer provide service for a fee to the unincorporated county.  Let the county figure out a way to provide their own fire service.  I'm betting it will cost each resident much more than $75

No it won't.  It may cost a few of them some hours, but they can most definitely get federal grant money to start a volunteer department.  In the end, they'll be better for it.  So will the community.
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dallaswareagle

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Re: Thoughts on the Fire Dept Debate
« Reply #57 on: October 19, 2010, 04:02:24 PM »
  People are stupid, and it is the job of those in power to save people from their own stupidity. The county should have stepped in long ago and not rely on these people to pay a fee.


Since when is it ANYBODY's job to "Save people" from their own stupidity. 

Govt can't control everything.
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A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to 'The United States of America ' for an amount of 'up to and including my life.' That is Honor, and there are way too many people in this country who no longer understand it.'

RWS

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Re: Thoughts on the Fire Dept Debate
« Reply #58 on: October 19, 2010, 04:15:16 PM »
  People are stupid, and it is the job of those in power to save people from their own stupidity. The county should have stepped in long ago and not rely on these people to pay a fee.


Since when is it ANYBODY's job to "Save people" from their own stupidity. 

Govt can't control everything.
When it comes to police and fire, our job is to proactively protect. It is our job to save people from their own stupidity. Like I said, I know that's not a popular idea in this day and age, but it really is the truth.
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CCTAU

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Re: Thoughts on the Fire Dept Debate
« Reply #59 on: October 19, 2010, 04:58:41 PM »
When it comes to police and fire, our job is to proactively protect. It is our job to save people from their own stupidity. Like I said, I know that's not a popular idea in this day and age, but it really is the truth.

Vote dimocrat much??????
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Five statements of WISDOM
1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity, by legislating the wealth out of prosperity.
2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.
3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.
4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.
5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friends, is the beginning of the end of any nation.