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The Library => Haley Center Basement => Topic started by: Tiger Wench on May 28, 2009, 12:05:11 PM
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But in this instance, I am tempted to send these folks some money to cover their legal fees... More importantly, which of their asshole neighbors "turned them in" for OH NO!! Being Christian in California!!!!!!!!!!!!! AHHHHHHHH!
:bs:
http://www.10news.com/news/19562217/detail.html (http://www.10news.com/news/19562217/detail.html)
SAN DIEGO -- A local pastor and his wife claim they were interrogated by a San Diego County official, who then threatened them with escalating fines if they continued to hold bible studies in their home, 10News reported.
Attorney Dean Broyles of The Western Center For Law & Policy was shocked with what happened to the pastor and his wife.
Broyles said, "The county asked, 'Do you have a regular meeting in your home?' She said, 'Yes.' 'Do you say amen?' 'Yes.' 'Do you pray?' 'Yes.' 'Do you say praise the Lord?' 'Yes.'"
The county employee notified the couple that the small bible study, with an average of 15 people attending, was in violation of county regulations, according to Broyles.
Broyles said a few days later the couple received a written warning that listed "unlawful use of land" and told them to "stop religious assembly or apply for a major use permit" -- a process that could cost tens of thousands of dollars.
"For churches and religious assemblies there's big parking concerns, there's environmental impact concerns when you have hundreds or thousands of people gathering. But this is a different situation, and we believe that the application of the religious assembly principles to this bible study is certainly misplaced," said Broyles.
News of the case has rapidly spread across Internet blogs and has spurred various reactions.
Broyles said his clients have asked to stay anonymous until they give the county a demand letter that states by enforcing this regulation the county is violating their First Amendment right to freely exercise their religion.
Broyles also said this case has broader implications.
"If the county thinks they can shut down groups of 10 or 15 Christians meeting in a home, what about people who meet regularly at home for poker night? What about people who meet for Tupperware parties? What about people who are meeting to watch baseball games on a regular basis and support the Chargers?" said Broyles.
Broyles and his clients plant to give the county their demand letter this week.
If the county refuses to release the pastor and his wife from obtaining the permit, they will consider a lawsuit in federal court.
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Ha! They'll win easily! Fuckin' Kalifornia!
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You know, in the bible, whenever there are fucked up cities or governments that disobey God and openly persecute God's people, those places get hit with nuclear-esque disasters. Sodom and Gomorrah comes to mind. Locusts devouring Egyptian lands. Noah's Ark.
Remind me, what state is it that scientists fear could be destroyed by an earthquake?
God's Plan - Deal with it.
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Maybe they should start meeting at Perez Hilton's house.
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Can you imagine being the cop or city official who had the responsibility of telling them to stop praying, saying Amen and studying the Bible? I'd be checking the skies for that one black cloud and bolt of lightning coming my way. I think about that stuff every time I see where someone broke in and stole from or vandalized a church. I'm thinkin'..even if you don't believe, you still gotta' have it in the back of your mind that, you know, breaking in to one of the 25,000 houses or businesses around the church might be a better idea....because what if?
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Can you imagine being the cop or city official who had the responsibility of telling them to stop praying, saying Amen and studying the Bible? I'd be checking the skies for that one black cloud and bolt of lightning coming my way. I think about that stuff every time I see where someone broke in and stole from or vandalized a church. I'm thinkin'..even if you don't believe, you still gotta' have it in the back of your mind that, you know, breaking in to one of the 25,000 houses or businesses around the church might be a better idea....because what if?
I recently prosecuted a guy...he would call the pastor at a church and tell him he wanted to attend but didn't have a ride...then during the service he would steal money out of lady's purses.
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Can you imagine being the cop or city official who had the responsibility of telling them to stop praying, saying Amen and studying the Bible? I'd be checking the skies for that one black cloud and bolt of lightning coming my way. I think about that stuff every time I see where someone broke in and stole from or vandalized a church. I'm thinkin'..even if you don't believe, you still gotta' have it in the back of your mind that, you know, breaking in to one of the 25,000 houses or businesses around the church might be a better idea....because what if?
Pascal would agree with your wager.
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I recently prosecuted a guy...he would call the pastor at a church and tell him he wanted to attend but didn't have a ride...then during the service he would steal money out of lady's purses.
Wow! I hope he was convicted
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Wow! I hope he was convicted
Uh, I was prosecuting him. His fate was never in doubt.
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You know, in the bible, whenever there are fucked up cities or governments that disobey God and openly persecute God's people, those places get hit with nuclear-esque disasters. Sodom and Gomorrah comes to mind. Locusts devouring Egyptian lands. Noah's Ark.
Remind me, what state is it that scientists fear could be destroyed by an earthquake?
God's Plan - Deal with it.
Are you saying God is vengeful and spiteful?
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Are you saying God is vengeful and spiteful?
I'm saying he could be if he wanted to be.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cA-pWKRyyG8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cA-pWKRyyG8)
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Titzie, you are one video loving fool.
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Is anyone else thinking beyond "religious rights" on this issue, such as the right to assemble peaceably? Lawyers on board, help me out with this here, is the county coming in and telling the people that they can't have a bible study or watch a ballgame or whatever and calling it "unlawful use of land" not infringing on their 1st amendment right or am I way out in left field here? If they were peaceably assembling.
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Is anyone else thinking beyond "religious rights" on this issue, such as the right to assemble peaceably? Lawyers on board, help me out with this here, is the county coming in and telling the people that they can't have a bible study or watch a ballgame or whatever and calling it "unlawful use of land" not infringing on their 1st amendment right or am I way out in left field here? If they were peaceably assembling.
The city/county/etc has the right (subject to some restriction, of course) to prescribe the uses to which property can be put. That said, I think they'll have a hard time justifying this.
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The city/county/etc has the right (subject to some restriction, of course) to prescribe the uses to which property can be put. That said, I think they'll have a hard time justifying this.
I get that there are zones for business, residential and commercial. I guess what I really wanted to know is can the county/city/state truly come into your home and tell you that you can't host a bible study, or party of any sort and make it stick? I too seeing them having a hard time to justify this case, I'm just wondering what the county was/is thinking in this case.
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I get that there are zones for business, residential and commercial. I guess what I really wanted to know is can the county/city/state truly come into your home and tell you that you can't host a bible study, or party of any sort and make it stick? I too seeing them having a hard time to justify this case, I'm just wondering what the county was/is thinking in this case.
I'll bet they would not be stopping these gathering if they were Black Panther, Muslim, or Scientology gatherings
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Could be fire code or something.
Nosy snitch neighbors.
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I get that there are zones for business, residential and commercial. I guess what I really wanted to know is can the county/city/state truly come into your home and tell you that you can't host a bible study, or party of any sort and make it stick? I too seeing them having a hard time to justify this case, I'm just wondering what the county was/is thinking in this case.
The "bible study" portion of it is probably incidental to the case, but makes for sensational news. Boartitz is probably correct in that this is probably a code enforcement issue of some sort.
EDIT NOTE: After re-reading the story, the religious aspect is the crux of their case, but it does not seem to be directed specifically at Xtians.
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The city/county/etc has the right (subject to some restriction, of course) to prescribe the uses to which property can be put. That said, I think they'll have a hard time justifying this.
Agree. Seems to me by the questioning that if they had just said, "No it's just a dinner party we have every week" that they would have left them alone. But because it's a religious service they are restricting it. The city/county, in my best lawyer opinion, can't justify this as a reasonable restriction.
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HIGHLIGHTS
Tuesday letter from Dean Broyles, attorney for David and Mary Jones: “The Citation specifically orders the homeowner to 'cease/stop religious assembly' as opposed to all other types of assembly, such as holding secular (non-religious) meetings, parties or events. Therefore, pursuant to well-established legal precedent, the Order is not neutral because it specifically targets only religious meetings.”
Statement yesterday from Walt Ekard, chief administrative officer for San Diego County: “Let me be clear: religious intolerance in any form is not, and never will be, allowed under any circumstance in San Diego County government. I deeply regret that a routine code enforcement issue has transformed into a debate over religious freedom in San Diego County.”
Sweeping issues of religious freedom and governmental regulation are swirling around Pastor David Jones' house in rural Bonita, attracting attention from as far away as China and New Zealand.
He says it all started with $220 in car damage.
Jones and his wife, Mary, hold a weekly Bible study at their home that sometimes attracts more than 20 people, with occasional parking issues. Once, a car belonging to a neighbor's visitor got dinged.
David Jones paid for the damage, but he thinks the incident spurred a complaint to the county.
A code enforcement officer warned the couple in April for holding a “religious assembly” without a permit. The action became an international incident when it was reported last week on the Web site worldnetdaily.com.
The Joneses assert that the county's action violates their rights under the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, which guarantees freedom of religion. Their story was picked up by conservative Web sites for days, then made it to CNN yesterday.
Barraged by hundreds of complaints, San Diego County officials backed down yesterday from their enforcement.
“No one respects the right to free religious expression more than I do, and no one would find the infringement of such rights more abhorrent,” county Chief Administrative Officer Walt Ekard said in a statement.
Chandra Wallar, the county's general manager of land use and environment, said the county has re-examined the situation and decided that the Joneses don't need a permit after all.
Religious assembly, under the county land-use code, is defined as “religious services involving public assembly such as customarily occurs in synagogues, temples, and churches.”
Wallar said that definition, which doesn't spell out specific thresholds on when a religious gathering becomes a religious assembly, probably needs to be clarified and that more training may be warranted for code enforcement officers.
She said the county was not targeting the Joneses because they were exercising their religion, but rather it was trying to address parking and traffic issues.
“We've advised the pastor he has the authority to continue to hold his meetings just as he's held them,” Wallar said. “My hope is we will be able to resolve the traffic concerns.”
Wallar said the person who filed the complaint alleged that Bible study was drawing 30 to 40 cars.
In an interview yesterday, the pastor said at most, there are six additional cars on Bible study day. Jones, pastor of South Bay Community Church in National City, said he has visitors park in a lot that he owns beside his house.
“We're in trouble if they are going to go with a parking issue, because that means that thousands of people in Bible study groups could be cited for a parking violation,” Jones said.
“What about people who gather to play Texas Hold 'Em, Mommy and Me, 'Monday Night Football,' Boy Scouts, Alcoholics Anonymous? Everyone has a right as a homeowner to the quiet enjoyment of their property. They're trying to take that away. We're not going to let it go.”
Constitutional law scholars say that the county can impose land-use restrictions on religious gatherings, as long as they are not unreasonable or discriminatory.
“If people can get together weekly to read books or discuss books or play bridge, if those are OK, there would be a constitutional issue involved in singling out, among other things, religion as a forbidden thing,” said Larry Alexander, constitutional law professor at the University of San Diego.
Dean Broyles, president of the Western Center for Law & Policy, a nonprofit organization in Escondido that supports religious liberty, is representing the Joneses. He said traffic issues were not raised when the code enforcement officer first visited the Joneses in response to the complaint. The warning itself does not mention traffic or parking problems.
“Even though the county is saying it's about traffic and parking, it's a fake issue. It's a fabricated issue,” Broyles said.
According to Broyles, the code enforcement officer asked a series of pointed questions during her visit with the Joneses – questions such as, “Do you sing?” “Do you say 'amen?' ” “Do you say 'praise the Lord?' ”
Wallar said the county is investigating what questions were asked and in what context. She said a code enforcement officer does have to ask questions about how a place is being used to determine what land-use codes are applicable.
“Our county simply does not tolerate our employee straying outside what the appropriate questions are,” Wallar said.
Ekard, the top county executive, emphasized in his statement that he would get to the bottom of the matter.
“Should I find that county staff at any level acted in a heavy-handed way; did anything inappropriate under the circumstances; or that a change or revision to our processes and procedures is warranted, I will take appropriate action immediately,” he said.
As of late yesterday, county Supervisor Greg Cox's office – which represents the area – reported having received 400 e-mail messages about the Joneses'situation. Wallar said her department has received hundreds of e-mails and phone calls as well.
Broyles said he's been fielding media calls nonstop.
“It's been hard to do anything else but to handle the phone calls and media interviews,” he said. “It's been crazy, back to back to back to back.”
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Don't know the particulars, but if there are so many cars they are blocking the street, they will probably lose. Reminds me of a guy named Jennings Osborne in Little Rock. He used to put up a huge christmas light display during the holidays. His next door neighbors complained, so he bought them out and made the display 3 houses wide. Unfortunately, so many people were driving by to see it, that the neighborhood got together and complained that if an ambulance needed to get thru in an emergency they wouldn't be able to. The city shut him down, he had to move all his lights to Disney World.
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Could be fire code or something.
Nosy snitch neighbors.
snitches get stitches