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The Library => Haley Center Basement => Topic started by: Townhallsavoy on May 20, 2009, 05:45:35 PM
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http://videos.al.com/birmingham-news/2009/05/birmingham_police_beating_vide.html (http://videos.al.com/birmingham-news/2009/05/birmingham_police_beating_vide.html)
http://blog.al.com/spotnews/2009/05/five_birmingham_police_officer.html (http://blog.al.com/spotnews/2009/05/five_birmingham_police_officer.html)
Cops were in the wrong, but they shouldn't have been fired.
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Was that Greasy behind the wheel of the van?
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http://videos.al.com/birmingham-news/2009/05/birmingham_police_beating_vide.html (http://videos.al.com/birmingham-news/2009/05/birmingham_police_beating_vide.html)
http://blog.al.com/spotnews/2009/05/five_birmingham_police_officer.html (http://blog.al.com/spotnews/2009/05/five_birmingham_police_officer.html)
Cops were in the wrong, but they shouldn't have been fired.
Shouldn't have been fired? Why?
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Shouldn't have been fired? Why?
That motherfucker attempted to kill a police officer. Technically, they could have shot him as he was using his vehicle as a weapon with the intention to kill. For them to overreact is no different than an asshole putting his hands on my wife at a bar. I'm an upstanding citizen, a school teacher, a church goer, and I have a clean record; but if someone puts their hands on my wife at a bar, they're going to get a beer bottle to the side of the head. It's not right, but it's justifiable.
They should have given those cops some anger management classes and a suspension without pay.
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That motherfucker attempted to kill a police officer. Technically, they could have shot him as he was using his vehicle as a weapon with the intention to kill. For them to overreact is no different than an asshole putting his hands on my wife at a bar. I'm an upstanding citizen, a school teacher, a church goer, and I have a clean record; but if someone puts their hands on my wife at a bar, they're going to get a beer bottle to the side of the head. It's not right, but it's justifiable.
They should have given those cops some anger management classes and a suspension without pay.
I'm all about him being a piece of garbage for attempting to kill a police officer. Don't get me wrong, I work for the po-po, so I'm totally with you on that. However, it is their job to be above the average citizen who had some jackass put hands on his wife. It doesn't matter if he had decided to stop, walk out with his hands up, then lay flat on the ground with his arms and legs spread. There is still a standard there that you have to abide by. Even if he had attempted to kill an officer, at this point he was unconscious and obviously not a threat. Even our officers were like "Wow, that was fucking stupid" when they were watching the video at shift change. It was used as a "DO NOT DO THIS!" tool.
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Calmly walk up, draw your service weapon, shoot the rabid dog in the head, and then call the pound.
Do people really believe that they have the right to screw with a man with a gun and a badge?
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Calmly walk up, draw your service weapon, shoot the rabid dog in the head, and then call the pound.
Do people really believe that they have the right to screw with a man with a gun and a badge?
I agree, people should know not to mess with the police, but what they did was still wrong. Care to find out why it has taken OVER one year for the video and story of an unconscious black man being beaten by police officers in Birmingham to come out? The only reason the beating was discovered was because of the prosecutor handling the case against Mr. Warren. She had requested a copy of the dashcam video and noticed that it abruptly cut off when the vehicle started its roll. There were some other technical issues with the video, so she requested another copy from the PD. The second copy she got was the un-edited version and showed the whole thing.
One of our officers is ex-Tuscaloosa PD. He says that the system Birmingham uses is similar to our Digital Patroller system. All of the video is stored in a digital format on a hard drive in the car. You hard drive holds so much data, then you have to download it to the PD server. As an officer, you cannot edit, delete, or in anyway modify the video. Somebody higher up has to do that, which is what I suspect happened in this case as well. While you have the edited version, the original always stays in the system and cannot be deleted. Why would they edit the video if they were only following procedure?
The officer driving the car that shot the video you saw even had the presence of mind to go back to his car and shut off his lights and siren so the recording system would shut off as well. If either one of those are on, or usually if your car is doing over 70 MPH, the system automatically activates. All of the officers have given the story that they did not know he had been ejected from the vehicle and labeled him as "non-compliant" as they were ordering him to show his hands, and they were not aware that he was unconscious. There are a few problems with that explanation. First, you don't approach a subject that is "non-compliant" in close quarters when they will not show their hands. You draw your taser or gun, and if the subject then becomes compliant, you safely approach with weapon still drawn. No officer in their right mind would run up to a subject who is not showing his hands when they have no idea what he might do, especially when the guy has shown he has no regard for the life of a law enforcement officer.
Second, I don't buy the whole "we didn't know he was ejected" story. Its very very clear in the tape that he was ejected. Even as the officers started beating him, he never resisted. They beat him for about 10 seconds, and even as the others stopped and started getting back to their feet, you still have one officer taking head shots on the guy.
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I'm all about him being a piece of garbage for attempting to kill a police officer. Don't get me wrong, I work for the po-po, so I'm totally with you on that. However, it is their job to be above the average citizen who had some jackass put hands on his wife. It doesn't matter if he had decided to stop, walk out with his hands up, then lay flat on the ground with his arms and legs spread. There is still a standard there that you have to abide by. Even if he had attempted to kill an officer, at this point he was unconscious and obviously not a threat. Even our officers were like "Wow, that was fucking stupid" when they were watching the video at shift change. It was used as a "DO NOT DO THIS!" tool.
Can't believe I'm agreeing with the bammer! The officer that he tried to hit could have shot him, but you can't shoot fleeing suspects. And that's another thing, they didn't even have charges on this guy until he tried to hit the Hoover officer. The police need to have better sense than to endager the entire Metro area chasing someone suspected of drug activity (not a violent crime mind you). And yes, the police are supposed to be smarter and better than the pieces of shit they're chasing and arresting. We pay them to be better. If I was walking down the street and saw someone I thought might be in to drug activity, and I ran them down and beat their ass...I would be the one going to jail for assault. The badge and gun don't give them the right to dispense justice on the side of the road. And I've heard this "they couldn't see his hands" argument..."he might have been armed"...well he might have had an atom bomb! After they beat his ass a bit not a one of them even tried to cuff him, or get control of his hands or check for weapons, they left his hands right where they were. They weren't worried about a gun, or knife, they were wanting their pound of flesh. That first guy in with the baton could have justified his strike, if he's made efforts to then try to cuff him. He didn't. That moron that jumped on the guy's head and pounded him with closed fist? There's nothing even remotely resembling any police training I had that justifies that.
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Can't believe I'm agreeing with the bammer! The officer that he tried to hit could have shot him, but you can't shoot fleeing suspects. And that's another thing, they didn't even have charges on this guy until he tried to hit the Hoover officer. The police need to have better sense than to endager the entire Metro area chasing someone suspected of drug activity (not a violent crime mind you). And yes, the police are supposed to be smarter and better than the pieces of shit they're chasing and arresting. We pay them to be better. If I was walking down the street and saw someone I thought might be in to drug activity, and I ran them down and beat their ass...I would be the one going to jail for assault. The badge and gun don't give them the right to dispense justice on the side of the road. And I've heard this "they couldn't see his hands" argument..."he might have been armed"...well he might have had an atom bomb! After they beat his ass a bit not a one of them even tried to cuff him, or get control of his hands or check for weapons, they left his hands right where they were. They weren't worried about a gun, or knife, they were wanting their pound of flesh. That first guy in with the baton could have justified his strike, if he's made efforts to then try to cuff him. He didn't. That moron that jumped on the guy's head and pounded him with closed fist? There's nothing even remotely resembling any police training I had that justifies that.
Its like our Sgt. said a little while ago when we were reading about how the guy is now suing the PD. Did the guy get what he had coming to him? Yes. Should they have done what they did? No. They let their adrenaline get to them, plain and simple. The goal of force is the intent to gain compliance from a suspect, not to punish. Everybody may do little things like maybe cuffing them a little too tight, small simple things like that. Thats one thing. But to beat the shit out of somebody that is unconscious, thats not what your training tells you to do.
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Its like our Sgt. said a little while ago when we were reading about how the guy is now suing the PD. Did the guy get what he had coming to him? Yes. Should they have done what they did? No. They let their adrenaline get to them, plain and simple. The goal of force is the intent to gain compliance from a suspect, not to punish. Everybody may do little things like maybe cuffing them a little too tight, small simple things like that. Thats one thing. But to beat the shit out of somebody that is unconscious, thats not what your training tells you to do.
The smart ones can "get their licks in" while employing tactics that comply with training and policy.
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The smart ones can "get their licks in" while employing tactics that comply with training and policy.
Make them hold a pillow and hit through that.....
I mean yea.
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Do people really believe that they have the right to screw with a man with a gun and a badge?
Do people really believe that cops are above the law? Is it ok to break the law to arrest a law breaker?
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I agree, people should know not to mess with the police, but what they did was still wrong. Care to find out why it has taken OVER one year for the video and story of an unconscious black man being beaten by police officers in Birmingham to come out? The only reason the beating was discovered was because of the prosecutor handling the case against Mr. Warren. She had requested a copy of the dashcam video and noticed that it abruptly cut off when the vehicle started its roll. There were some other technical issues with the video, so she requested another copy from the PD. The second copy she got was the un-edited version and showed the whole thing.
One of our officers is ex-Tuscaloosa PD. He says that the system Birmingham uses is similar to our Digital Patroller system. All of the video is stored in a digital format on a hard drive in the car. You hard drive holds so much data, then you have to download it to the PD server. As an officer, you cannot edit, delete, or in anyway modify the video. Somebody higher up has to do that, which is what I suspect happened in this case as well. While you have the edited version, the original always stays in the system and cannot be deleted. Why would they edit the video if they were only following procedure?
The officer driving the car that shot the video you saw even had the presence of mind to go back to his car and shut off his lights and siren so the recording system would shut off as well. If either one of those are on, or usually if your car is doing over 70 MPH, the system automatically activates. All of the officers have given the story that they did not know he had been ejected from the vehicle and labeled him as "non-compliant" as they were ordering him to show his hands, and they were not aware that he was unconscious. There are a few problems with that explanation. First, you don't approach a subject that is "non-compliant" in close quarters when they will not show their hands. You draw your taser or gun, and if the subject then becomes compliant, you safely approach with weapon still drawn. No officer in their right mind would run up to a subject who is not showing his hands when they have no idea what he might do, especially when the guy has shown he has no regard for the life of a law enforcement officer.
Second, I don't buy the whole "we didn't know he was ejected" story. Its very very clear in the tape that he was ejected. Even as the officers started beating him, he never resisted. They beat him for about 10 seconds, and even as the others stopped and started getting back to their feet, you still have one officer taking head shots on the guy.
Wow, I learned something from Farva.
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Is it ok to break the law to arrest a law breaker?
Yes. Before they whipped the shit out of him, they should have tasered him 4 or 10 times, emptied 10 canisters of pepper spray into his eyes, called in 10 K-9 units so the dogs could get a piece of his ass, then beat the ever loving hell out of him. After the cops ran out of ideas on how to punish him more, scoop his ass out of the culvert and pour whats left of him into the ambulance. Fuck taking him to the hospital. Take him to a Doc-in-the-box. Hospital is too good for him. Let the nurse practitioner hand him a couple of 500mg Tylenol's, throw a few Sesame Street band aids on his open wounds, then kick his ass out onto the street.
If cops could get tougher on these punks, maybe they'd think twice about detouring from civilized behavior.
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Yes. Before they whipped the shit out of him, they should have tasered him 4 or 10 times, emptied 10 canisters of pepper spray into his eyes, called in 10 K-9 units so the dogs could get a piece of his ass, then beat the ever loving hell out of him. After the cops ran out of ideas on how to punish him more, scoop his ass out of the culvert and pour whats left of him into the ambulance. Fuck taking him to the hospital. Take him to a Doc-in-the-box. Hospital is too good for him. Let the nurse practitioner hand him a couple of 500mg Tylenol's, throw a few Sesame Street band aids on his open wounds, then kick his ass out onto the street.
If cops could get tougher on these punks, maybe they'd think twice about detouring from civilized behavior.
Be careful what you wish for!
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Do people really believe that cops are above the law? Is it ok to break the law to arrest a law breaker?
Does it really matter who thinks they are above the law? You still tote and ass whooping or a bullet to the head. Even if the cop is convicted, you still pay the consequences. If you had just pulled over and did the right thing, then nobody would have to be above the law.
Its like riding a bicycle on a busy highway. Do you have that right? YES. But when you get your ass run over, you are still run over no matter who was in the wrong. It pays to use common sense in life. If not, then all involved will pay the consequences, just as they did in this case.
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RWS or JR4AU, do either of you know what Birmingham PD's force continuum plan is? Do either of you know what Birmingham's standard procedure is on a high speed chase that ends with a wreck? Could they draw lethal force when approaching the subject? Were they required to draw with lethal force when approaching the suspect, or could they indeed approach with baton strikes to major muscle groups?
I'm not willing to engage in an argument about who was right or wrong because I refuse to second guess their split-second decisions. Just know that there isn't a State law mandating a certain force continuum plan for all law enforcement officers. Most departments have their own continuum plan on how they respond to certain situations.
I'd guess that 3, possibly 4, out of the 5 will be back on the streets of Birmingham before it's all said and done.
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RWS or JR4AU, do either of you know what Birmingham PD's force continuum plan is? Do either of you know what Birmingham's standard procedure is on a high speed chase that ends with a wreck? Could they draw lethal force when approaching the subject? Were they required to draw with lethal force when approaching the suspect, or could they indeed approach with baton strikes to major muscle groups?
I'm not willing to engage in an argument about who was right or wrong because I refuse to second guess their split-second decisions. Just know that there isn't a State law mandating a certain force continuum plan for all law enforcement officers. Most departments have their own continuum plan on how they respond to certain situations.
I'd guess that 3, possibly 4, out of the 5 will be back on the streets of Birmingham before it's all said and done.
There is no police force continuum or any police training that says "jump on the guy's head and beat him with closed fists about the head and shoulders". NOTHING. The first guy was probably ok with the first baton strike. He went to the the common peroneal in the thigh. But it's clear the cop who realizes his recorder is running knows they're out of line, it's clear that although they claimed they couldn't see his hands and he could have been armed, none of them made an effort to get them out from under him and cuff him. He was still laying there uncuffed when they stopped beating on him, and the camera was shut off. They didn't fear anything...they were pissed and wanted to beat his ass.
What the hell does "draw lethal force" mean? Could they have drawn their guns? Well if I was truly afraid someone was armed, that's what I would do, and I'd take cover and give verbal commands to order them to a controlled position to cuff them safely. I would not run and jump on them and beat them and never try to gain control of their hands so I could see them. No they would not have been justified in shooting him in that situation, but they sure could have drawn their weapons. In fact that's what I would have done.
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I didn't ask what you would do in that situation. I asked what Birmingham PD could or could not do in that situation. You say they sure could have drawn their weapons, but you didn't say whether or not they had to. Are they required to draw their weapons in that situation?
Are you an instructor or are you certified in PPCT? While I agree that you can't strike the head with closed fists, you can and are taught to strike the brachial plexus with semi closed fists.
I admit, when I first seen the video, it looked to me like the subject was being punched in the side of the face. When we slowed the video down, you can see the left hand is hitting around the brachial plexus nearly every time. I won't argue for the right hand because you obviously don't have a great angle to see exactly where he was landing the strikes.
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I didn't ask what you would do in that situation. I asked what Birmingham PD could or could not do in that situation. You say they sure could have drawn their weapons, but you didn't say whether or not they had to. Are they required to draw their weapons in that situation?
Are you an instructor or are you certified in PPCT? While I agree that you can't strike the head with closed fists, you can and are taught to strike the brachial plexus with semi closed fists.
I admit, when I first seen the video, it looked to me like the subject was being punched in the side of the face. When we slowed the video down, you can see the left hand is hitting around the brachial plexus nearly every time. I won't argue for the right hand because you obviously don't have a great angle to see exactly where he was landing the strikes.
Thats cool and all, but after a guy gets ejected out of a moving vehicle and then isn't moving, its safe to surmise that he is badly injured, and possibly unconscious. Judging by the video in that car, I don't see how that officer could not have seen he was ejected. Also, If they were in the right, why was the tape edited in the first place, and why did the officer walk back to the car to ensure that his camera was off? Why were they fired instead of placed on administrative leave? Why would the police chief publically call their actions "shameful"? Why would the mayor call the video "disgusting"? This doesn't sound like the actions of city officials who are trying to sugarcoat it to avoid a lawsuit. This sounds like officials who know it is wrong.
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Thats cool and all, but after a guy gets ejected out of a moving vehicle and then isn't moving, its safe to surmise that he is badly injured, and possibly unconscious. Judging by the video in that car, I don't see how that officer could not have seen he was ejected. Also, If they were in the right, why was the tape edited in the first place, and why did the officer walk back to the car to ensure that his camera was off? Why were they fired instead of placed on administrative leave? Why would the police chief publically call their actions "shameful"? Why would the mayor call the video "disgusting"? This doesn't sound like the actions of city officials who are trying to sugarcoat it to avoid a lawsuit. This sounds like officials who know it is wrong.
The video being edited is the most damning bit of evidence against some, not all, of the officers.
Birmingham PD has a very bad relationship with the general public in Birmingham. Firing all 5 of the officers was a political move and you should know that more than anyone here, being that you work in law enforcement. As for the city mayor calling the video "disgusting", are you serious? Do you know who the city mayor is and how much bullsh*t he is involved with himself? Taking out the fact that Birmingham's mayor may be the worst mayor in their history, his statement was a political move. Again, if you are in law enforcement, you should know the politically correct move in this situation was to separate the officers from the department. Especially if your city and county are operating in the red due to a piss poor mayor.
As I've already stated, at least 3 out of the 5 will be given their job back and will probably receive back pay. I think a 4th officer should be able to get his job back.
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If you are a citizen and a police officer tells you to stop, the farthest you should take it in complying with his/her orders is to make sure you are in a well lit, public place when you do comply. (Yes, I'll pull over at this well lit truck stop ahead but not here on a lonely, dark country road) Otherwise, police officer says stop, you stop.
If you choose to do otherwise, you NEED your ass beat to a pulp. Period. No if's, ands or buts. Comply within reason or get your ass beat like the bitch you are. I am a plaintiff lawyer. An ambulance chasing scumbag according to many of you. I refuse to take any case where some stupid sumbitch decides to give the finger to authority and then complain when he gets his sorry ass slapped upside his thick skull. Fuck you.
Police officers put their lives on the line at every freakin' traffic stop, at every response to a domestic dispute, at every stop of some drunk ass bastard stumbling down the side of the road. Stop means stop. Deal with improper treatment in a court of law after the fact. If you run after a cop says STOP...I don't give a flying fuck what your reasoning is short of a medical emergency...you stop.
If you choose not stop, then let me be the first to kidney punch your PATHETIC ASS.
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I'm guessing that the Nap Sacks and Ash thing didn't work.
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I'm guessing that the Nap Sacks and Ash thing didn't work.
give it time.
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I didn't ask what you would do in that situation. I asked what Birmingham PD could or could not do in that situation. You say they sure could have drawn their weapons, but you didn't say whether or not they had to. Are they required to draw their weapons in that situation?
Are you an instructor or are you certified in PPCT? While I agree that you can't strike the head with closed fists, you can and are taught to strike the brachial plexus with semi closed fists.
I admit, when I first seen the video, it looked to me like the subject was being punched in the side of the face. When we slowed the video down, you can see the left hand is hitting around the brachial plexus nearly every time. I won't argue for the right hand because you obviously don't have a great angle to see exactly where he was landing the strikes.
I was certified in PPCT. Like I said...they could have done it right, they didn't. Should they have been fired? I'm not privy to their individual service records, but I understand they were all pretty clean by word of mouth. That would factor in, IMHO, in this situation.
A few things stand out to me, and it goes to state of mind. They never once tried to cuff him on the video. The guy with the baton would probably have been ok if he'd have made his first strike then attempted to subdue him. The guy beating on his head...he was just wrong.
I suspect you're a LEO...you know like I do...the force continuum is as much about how you justify your use of force as what you actually do. They're not nearly as black and white as you seem to want to make them out (ie, if the suspect does this, you can then draw your service weapon) As a general rule they go this way:
Verbal Commands, less than lethal (which can be pepper spray, or taser usually...and different departments say which one first differently if they have both) laying on of hands (ppct), impact weapons (baton/ppct), deadly force. An officer, regardless of his department's policies, is allowed to use the force neccessary to subdue the subject, and/or to protect himself or others. Other than deadly force which requires that the user of deadly force reasonably fear for his life or another's, the officer may use one step above what the subject is using. IOW, if the subject is verbally non-compliant, less than lethal is ok. If he's physically combative but unarmed, the officer may lay hands on him, use less than lethal, or impact weapons. In the end it's all about what he can justify by what he says he perceived.
FWIW, drawing your weapon is nothing more than verbal commands in the force continuum...until you use it...an officer can draw his weapon any time he thinks he might need it. It's when he uses it he has to justfy it.
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I only brought the point up about the force continuum because I've been told that Birmingham has an actually policy on when they can, and can't draw their service weapon. I don't know if that's true, but I was told it has to do with wrongful shootings in the past and it was a public relations move by the department. That, along with other things I've heard, makes me believe that only 1, possibly 2 officers should have been fired.
I'll leave this topic with one final thought. If you were the 3rd or 4th car on the scene and saw one or two of your officers appear to be struggling with the guy, would you engage the suspect or sit back and let them have it? We're not talking 30 seconds to a minute to actually survey the situation. We're talking in the 5 seconds this took to unfold(before everyone was on the guy), would you have made the decision not to approach the suspect and help your fellow officers? If you would have been in that situation, and ran over to help your fellow officers because you thought they were fighting with the suspect, you wouldn't have a job right now. I think it's BS that 5 were fired, and it shocks me to see other LEOs publicly state that it was the right decision.
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If you are a citizen and a police officer tells you to stop, the farthest you should take it in complying with his/her orders is to make sure you are in a well lit, public place when you do comply. (Yes, I'll pull over at this well lit truck stop ahead but not here on a lonely, dark country road)
You really need to quit hanging out in those restrooms.