Tigers X - Number one Source to Talk Auburn Tigers Sports
Pat Dye Field => War Damn Eagle => Topic started by: Townhallsavoy on January 08, 2014, 05:57:17 PM
-
There's only two plays that burn me about the game the other night. I've yet to get over them.
One was the 49 yard catch and run that should have been stopped as soon as it started. I do believe we would have made it very difficult for them to get in the endzone if they had to dink and dunk all the way down. But oh well to that. It was poor tackling, and we've had that issue throughout the year.
But the fake punt...
I noticed it when it happened - Melvin Ray dipped inside and then had to make up ground. On the replay, I looked at the other side of the field and noticed that our player checked containment and then went for his block. Melvin Ray did not check for containment and went straight for his block.
Do you think his job was to check containment? It looked like it should have been. It's burning me up not because I'm putting blame on him. One play doesn't ruin a football game. But I really, really, really believe if we stop that fake punt, we win the ball game and the score is so big that people begin asking if Auburn is a GOAT contender.
If Ray wasn't supposed to check containment, then it was just the perfect playcall by Fisher, and there was nothing we could do anyway.
-
There's only two plays that burn me about the game the other night. I've yet to get over them.
One was the 49 yard catch and run that should have been stopped as soon as it started. I do believe we would have made it very difficult for them to get in the endzone if they had to dink and dunk all the way down. But oh well to that. It was poor tackling, and we've had that issue throughout the year.
But the fake punt...
I noticed it when it happened - Melvin Ray dipped inside and then had to make up ground. On the replay, I looked at the other side of the field and noticed that our player checked containment and then went for his block. Melvin Ray did not check for containment and went straight for his block.
Do you think his job was to check containment? It looked like it should have been. It's burning me up not because I'm putting blame on him. One play doesn't ruin a football game. But I really, really, really believe if we stop that fake punt, we win the ball game and the score is so big that people begin asking if Auburn is a GOAT contender.
If Ray wasn't supposed to check containment, then it was just the perfect playcall by Fisher, and there was nothing we could do anyway.
I think it's kind of funny/ironic that you often harp on 'play calling', as if coaches are playing Xbox and must merely dial up the right call to create success, yet here you seek to blame a player for not doing his job which is FAR MORE OFTEN the case with lack of success than is poor play calling. Fact is, numerous people/analysts predicted, or suggested that the time was right for a fake punt call. It was.
It's very hard for coaches to prepare players for something they might see a half dozen times in one season, if that. And you simply cant spend much time actually repping defending fake punts, especially since they are all pretty much designed to be total surprises, and not all run the same. About all you can do is have your players mentally ready. Looking for it. Ray doesn't play defense, and isn't coached in contain. You can have a plan where playing defense is a higher priority than is setting up the return (if you really think they're going to fake, you leave your defense on the field and concede the punt), or the block, and rep that, but that's about it, UNLESS you really have some good film on what they are likely to do when they fake, or some tip by alignment or personnel you've seen on film. The first job of punt return team is usually to challenge a gap and hold up one of the guys that is covering the punt, then set up the called return. Not play defense, though they do have to be "aware" of the fake every time they come on the field, they are simply not really thinking about it hard unless alerted. Or to go for the block if that's called, and usually that will be a different personnel set too.
Jimbo called a reverse fake punt. High risk and slow developing. Had our guys been looking for the fake first, it would have gone for a loss. They weren't. I fault Gus ultimately, and the special teams coordinator for not being in tune with the game situation like so many others seemed to be. It happens. There are two coaching staffs calling plays and making decisions. When it's two championship level teams and staffs...they won't usually all go in favor of one side or the other. In this case, Jimbo and Co. "out coached" Gus and Co. Happened to have been a game turning play. It happens. If they didn't have a "Punt Safe" type call on looking for the fake, then "contain" wasn't in Ray's (or anybody's) responsibility most likely. If it was called a punt safe, I have a hard time imagining they would have gotten any yardage on that type of fake call.
-
Ray did not go for his block, he saw the ball going the other way and started chasing it! Yes, he had containment. Freshman mistake!
-
Ray did not go for his block, he saw the ball going the other way and started chasing it! Yes, he had containment. Freshman mistake!
This.
-
Blah blah I post here a few times a year and act like a know-it-all jackass blah blah
-
Ray did not go for his block, he saw the ball going the other way and started chasing it! Yes, he had containment. Freshman mistake!
What was the mistake then? If he was responsible for containment and immediately chased it, then he didn't make a mistake. He just didn't get there. If he was supposed to go for his block and tried to redirect for the fake punt, then he didn't make a mistake. He again just didn't get there.
I wouldn't say he didn't anything wrong if FSU had the call that outsmarted our guys.
-
I think that was Jake Holland's man running the reverse fake punt.
-
I only know I like the athletic Ray as a receiver moreso than the fake punt heavy on special teams.
-
Blah blah blah
No offense but isn't that what your original post was?
Easy to blame ray here but no one expected that reverse on the fake. As cct said he had containment initially but got ass raped on the fake. Coaching staff might should have sold out for the fake and put everyone up on the line but....they didn't. Woulda coulda shoulda.
-
I'm just not aware of anybody on a punt return/punt block team who is coached to "play contain" beyond that of being aware of a fake. If "punt safe" was called, then possibly. They weren't ready for the fake. So, blame who you want.
-
My question is why does a wide receiver have contain responsibility on a punt return? Wouldn't one of your better defensive athletes like Thereize or the Smiff boy or even a Dee Ford/Craig Sanders be better suited in that role?
-
I'm just not aware of anybody on a punt return/punt block team who is coached to "play contain" beyond that of being aware of a fake. If "punt safe" was called, then possibly. They weren't ready for the fake. So, blame who you want.
I think anyone who is coached as a DE or in a position that is supposed to have outside containment is coached to be as deep as the ball at all times.
Of course maybe that has changed just like how CB's do that stupid assed face guarding now.
-
No offense but isn't that what your original post was?
I didn't read his post. I read this: "I think it's kind of funny/ironic that you often harp on 'play calling'" and figured it was typical JR belittling a poster before providing his own verbose opinion that reiterates his superior knowledge.
Easy to blame ray here but no one expected that reverse on the fake. As cct said he had containment initially but got ass raped on the fake. Coaching staff might should have sold out for the fake and put everyone up on the line but....they didn't. Woulda coulda shoulda.
That's all I was asking. Was that Ray's job to keep containment or was he supposed to dip inside like that?
-
I didn't read his post. I read this: "I think it's kind of funny/ironic that you often harp on 'play calling'" and figured it was typical JR belittling a poster before providing his own verbose opinion that reiterates his superior knowledge.
That's all I was asking. Was that Ray's job to keep containment or was he supposed to dip inside like that?
Outside guy always has containment. There are coaches watching things like this. When they see a team that is comfortable with the punt and not rushing hard, they know it is time to call a fake punt. Ray got complacent, saw the fake and chased it. When it came back the other way, he was burned. The play worked exactly as you hoped it would. If Ray turns the guy back inside, the play is stuffed. Most coaches do not call a fake randomly. they see tendencies and know when it has a higher probability of working. We got caught with our pants down and paid for it. Simple.
-
I think anyone who is coached as a DE or in a position that is supposed to have outside containment is coached to be as deep as the ball at all times.
Ray, IIRC, is a WR by trade. This was not defense, it was special teams punt return. (I assume return was on, but I don't KNOW that) I also don't KNOW what his actual responsibility was, but I do know that generally speaking on PUNT RETURN, there's usually one guy, or 2 who have a responsibility to rush the punter. Their job is not to block the punt, but they can IF they can do so. Their primary job is to rush the punter and make sure the ball is kicked. They are usually aligned to the outside of the box as Ray was. If he was not assigned to rush the punter, he then most likely had responsibility to jam a particular man at the LOS, then trail him down field and attempt to regain a good blocking position. As always, he had to be aware of a fake punt, but at that point, when/if he reads fake he simply turns in to an athlete and does his best to make a play.
IF...IF somewhere, and somehow he was ever given a task to "contain" then it likely consisted of being told that as a mental note, and little time was spent coaching it.
In most modern defenses the DE's primary responsibility is a gap. There may be certain calls that change this. Usually it's C gap. They move with that gap laterally and spill runs to them to the outside to be cleaned up by a LB or S. or when they read pass they rush. If they read RUN AWAY they then become backside contain. If this were our defense, and a DE, then I'd say whoever it was lost their backside contain. This was punt return, and a WR not defense or a DE. Melvin Ray was probably given next to no coaching in defensive techniques and I'd wager he does few tackling drills.
As I conceded, I don't KNOW what his job was and don't know what the return team's call was. IF he was given a task to play run contain, then it was a bad personnel decision as Snags points out. I'm not going to blame a WR for being sucked in by a fake punt run and getting burned on the reverse if there wasn't even a "Punt Safe" call on.
If there was a punt safe call on then it was poorly played in many aspects including Ray not playing contain.
-
Yeah I was just notating that is how it used to be. I have no idea if it is taught that way now.
-
Ray, IIRC, is a WR by trade. This was not defense, it was special teams punt return. (I assume return was on, but I don't KNOW that) I also don't KNOW what his actual responsibility was, but I do know that generally speaking on PUNT RETURN, there's usually one guy, or 2 who have a responsibility to rush the punter. Their job is not to block the punt, but they can IF they can do so. Their primary job is to rush the punter and make sure the ball is kicked. They are usually aligned to the outside of the box as Ray was. If he was not assigned to rush the punter, he then most likely had responsibility to jam a particular man at the LOS, then trail him down field and attempt to regain a good blocking position. As always, he had to be aware of a fake punt, but at that point, when/if he reads fake he simply turns in to an athlete and does his best to make a play.
IF...IF somewhere, and somehow he was ever given a task to "contain" then it likely consisted of being told that as a mental note, and little time was spent coaching it.
In most modern defenses the DE's primary responsibility is a gap. There may be certain calls that change this. Usually it's C gap. They move with that gap laterally and spill runs to them to the outside to be cleaned up by a LB or S. or when they read pass they rush. If they read RUN AWAY they then become backside contain. If this were our defense, and a DE, then I'd say whoever it was lost their backside contain. This was punt return, and a WR not defense or a DE. Melvin Ray was probably given next to no coaching in defensive techniques and I'd wager he does few tackling drills.
As I conceded, I don't KNOW what his job was and don't know what the return team's call was. IF he was given a task to play run contain, then it was a bad personnel decision as Snags points out. I'm not going to blame a WR for being sucked in by a fake punt run and getting burned on the reverse if there wasn't even a "Punt Safe" call on.
If there was a punt safe call on then it was poorly played in many aspects including Ray not playing contain.
that is some verbose knowledge.