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The Library => Haley Center Basement => Topic started by: Snaggletiger on June 03, 2011, 10:03:41 AM
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Jack Keee-Vor-Kee-An
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Actually I applaud Dr. Kevorkian. His actions gave dialogue to an increasingly volatile argument. We have, through medicine, increased the lifespan of many people who should already be dead. Some that have their lifespan increased live a longer happier life. Others are just kept alive to endure more pain. Daily pain affects every system in the body. At some point in time, these people know they should already be dead. Enduring excruciating pain is not living. It is, at best, existing. The human race exists. Individuals LIVE.
I do not feel like he was an evil man, but a truly compassionate man. Most doctors know when a patient is out of the realm of their help. At that time, they can only watch as a patient suffers in agony. The alternative is to give too much pain medicine and risk the wrath of the so-called righteous.
I hope that with his passing, the idea of assisted suicide does not die with him. Until we have the benefit of "Star Trek" type cures, we can only hope that those in pain can find enough joy out of life to make it worth it. When it is not worth it any longer, they should be able to come to death under their own terms. And there should be a path for this.
http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/06/03/jack-kevorkian-controversial-assisted-suicide-advocate-dies-at-83/?xid=rss-topstories
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What CCT said.
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Or maybe he got his rox off putting people to sleep. Still a creepy bastard.
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The real irony is that he COULD have died a month earlier...
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The real irony is that he COULD have died a month earlier...
I was waiting. You didn't disappoint
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Actually I applaud Dr. Kevorkian. His actions gave dialogue to an increasingly volatile argument. We have, through medicine, increased the lifespan of many people who should already be dead. Some that have their lifespan increased live a longer happier life. Others are just kept alive to endure more pain. Daily pain affects every system in the body. At some point in time, these people know they should already be dead. Enduring excruciating pain is not living. It is, at best, existing. The human race exists. Individuals LIVE.
I do not feel like he was an evil man, but a truly compassionate man. Most doctors know when a patient is out of the realm of their help. At that time, they can only watch as a patient suffers in agony. The alternative is to give too much pain medicine and risk the wrath of the so-called righteous.
I hope that with his passing, the idea of assisted suicide does not die with him. Until we have the benefit of "Star Trek" type cures, we can only hope that those in pain can find enough joy out of life to make it worth it. When it is not worth it any longer, they should be able to come to death under their own terms. And there should be a path for this.
:puke: Sorry man... What's this feel crap?
I completely disagree. Your assessment does not appreciate or consider that we cannot create or restore life at will. We still do not really understand it, and whether you believe in a supreme being or a some scientific "big bang" explanation, life is something to be protected and preserved at all costs, at least to the extent that it does not risk the lives of others. Survival is a basic natural instinct, and virtually everything we do is designed to preserve, improve or benefit life to some degree.
You're assuming that a life in pain is not worth living... Since Doctor Death originally fueled the debate, we have discovered several new procedures and new medications for dealing with the excruciating pain that you reference. I have no doubt that there is still some pain threshold that would make life unbearable even with the newly discovered treatments, but once a life is terminated, it cannot be restored. Life is not some trivial concept that we can just turn-on or off at will. Physiologically speaking... If you're truly in that much pain, your body will eventually shut itself down anyway, even with the life saving medications that are administered by the doctors.
Finally, the concepts of living versus existing that you reference are very subjective. If we use your perception of excruciating pain, is it not possible for that person to continue experiencing the same motivations, sensations and experiences as an individual who is not in pain?
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It is not YOUR place or right to decide for anyone but yourself. It's like the old adage of there are no atheists in a foxhole. Until you have experienced daily pain (or lived with someone who has) then really, who in the hell are you to decide for them. People like you are usually the first to scream for relief when that day comes.
So why does it matter to you if someone in excruciating pain wants to give up? Is it your position that they should suffer because YOU have a fear of death?
Let those in pain decide, NOT doctors or socalled do gooders.
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Very well said, CCTAU.
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It is not YOUR place or right to decide for anyone but yourself. It's like the old adage of there are no atheists in a foxhole. Until you have experienced daily pain (or lived with someone who has) then really, who in the hell are you to decide for them. People like you are usually the first to scream for relief when that day comes.
So why does it matter to you if someone in excruciating pain wants to give up? Is it your position that they should suffer because YOU have a fear of death?
Let those in pain decide, NOT doctors or socalled do gooders.
I'm not deciding for anyone. That's the problem with these positions. If I don't drink the koolaide, accept AND condone this reprehensible act unconditionally, I'm somehow imposing my will on others. That's not my opinion at all. I really don't disagree with your position if there truly is no hope or options, but let's not bastardize the medical industry or condone contract-for-hire grim reapers to prey on pathetic cowards in a moment of despair in their desire to abandon life. If you want to end it, man-up, grow a set and do it yourself. Make sure you dive off a building, head first, that's at least 3 stories tall... Or, use a 357 aiming the barrel towards the roof of your mouth when pulling the trigger... Or, use a sharp knife with enough force to sever tendons and muscles along with some critical arteries...
I'm suffering too. Until I own a Bugatti, Ferrari or a Lambo, I'm just existing... Oh, the pain...
And, I've known several who have experienced that excruciating pain at the end or what was thought to be the end of their lives. Relatively recent, my grandmother was given less than 3 months to live for nearly a decade. She suffered-on to experience and participate in her grandchildren's high school graduations, college graduations and even marriages. By the way, she also experienced two heart-attacks, two strokes and an aggresive resurgence of a metastasized breast cancer that spread throughout her body. To rob or deny herself of those experiences, even the bad ones, was never an option. Fear of death has less to do with this than the coward's fear of life.
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You still don't get it.
Unbearable pain is the pain that will NEVER go away that is too much to bear. If you can bear it, then there is no need for assisted suicide.
And how thoughtful of those individuals to have their family clean up their brain matter just because they "had the balls."
If a person feels the need to end their life, then they should have the right to be able to choose a dignified way to go.
The choices you give have no dignity associated with them at all. The people that have sought assistance with their suicides are not people that just up and decided a few days ago that they cannot go on. These are people that have been fighting this pain for years. These are the same people that have had "the balls" to live with the pain as long as they can.
You are being hysterical thinking that there will be an "assisted" suicide hotline that folks who call the suicide hotline can be transferred to.
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It is not YOUR place or right to decide for anyone but yourself. It's like the old adage of there are no atheists in a foxhole. Until you have experienced daily pain (or lived with someone who has) then really, who in the hell are you to decide for them. People like you are usually the first to scream for relief when that day comes.
So why does it matter to you if someone in excruciating pain wants to give up? Is it your position that they should suffer because YOU have a fear of death?
Let those in pain decide, NOT doctors or socalled do gooders.
THIS...all of it.
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You still don't get it.
Unbearable pain is the pain that will NEVER go away that is too much to bear. If you can bear it, then there is no need for assisted suicide.
And how thoughtful of those individuals to have their family clean up their brain matter just because they "had the balls."
If a person feels the need to end their life, then they should have the right to be able to choose a dignified way to go.
The choices you give have no dignity associated with them at all. The people that have sought assistance with their suicides are not people that just up and decided a few days ago that they cannot go on. These are people that have been fighting this pain for years. These are the same people that have had "the balls" to live with the pain as long as they can.
You are being hysterical thinking that there will be an "assisted" suicide hotline that folks who call the suicide hotline can be transferred to.
Oh, I get it. That's just it. There is no dignity in suicide, assisted or otherwise. It's a cowardly, reprehensible act, whether there's a mess to clean up afterwards or not. Unbearable pain may be an excuse to justify the decision, but those situations are extremely rare and becoming even more rare over time with advances in healthcare and medicine. It's a hypothetical situation that doesn't hold true for the NEVER go away duration.
I just don't know how much longer I can hold on without a Ferrari. I'm only existing...
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Oh, I get it. That's just it. There is no dignity in suicide, assisted or otherwise. It's a cowardly, reprehensible act, whether there's a mess to clean up afterwards or not.
Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
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Oh, I get it. That's just it. There is no dignity in suicide, assisted or otherwise. It's a cowardly, reprehensible act, whether there's a mess to clean up afterwards or not.
An act that is none of anyone else's business. That is the point CCT is getting at. If I am suffering and I want to die by my own terms, what is it ANY of yours or the government's business? I thought you, out of all people, would be anti-gubment on this one.
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Oh, I get it. That's just it. There is no dignity in suicide, assisted or otherwise. It's a cowardly, reprehensible act, whether there's a mess to clean up afterwards or not. Unbearable pain may be an excuse to justify the decision, but those situations are extremely rare and becoming even more rare over time with advances in healthcare and medicine. It's a hypothetical situation that doesn't hold true for the NEVER go away duration.
I just don't know how much longer I can hold on without a Ferrari. I'm only existing...
Those "advances in healthcare and medicine" are part and parcel of the reason why people are turning to choosing their right to die on their own terms. Sometimes - many times - the treatment is worse than the disease. And all the treatment might do is buy some additional time, but what good is additional time if you are too sick or swollen to enjoy it? I would rather spend my last days off the treatment, stoned on pain meds as necessary, at home with my pets and surrounded by family and friends, and slip off quietly into that good night on my own terms, than to be in some hospital, hooked up to tubes, losing all my hair, dropping down to 90 lbs of skin and bones because the chemo makes me too sick to eat, watching my friends and family suffer right along with me. Medicine may keep my body alive far longer than God intended - and if it is my time to go, I want to go on my own terms, and at peace.
You are totally off the mark on this one, Gar Man. My life, my choice as to when to end it. None of your damn business, or the government's either.
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My life, my choice as to when to end it. None of your damn business, or the government's either.
But apparently it is your life insurance company's business as typically there is no payout for suicide.
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An act that is none of anyone else's business. That is the point CCT is getting at. If I am suffering and I want to die by my own terms, what is it ANY of yours or the government's business? I thought you, out of all people, would be anti-gubment on this one.
I'm fine with that. I'm all about the personal responsibility. By all means, do it yourself, but as said before, don't bastardize the medical industry or condone contract-for-hire grim reapers to prey on pathetic cowards in a moment of despair in their desire to abandon life. That's not dignity, and that's the biggest issue I have with this.
There's also an understood assumption that these individuals are of sound mind when they're experiencing this unbearable excruciating pain that they can no longer live with... If you slam your hand with a sledge hammer a few times, let me know if that excruciating pain enables you to make sound decisions, especially those that would potentially end your life and affect those around you. I don't believe that any of you are being honest if you believe that.
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But apparently it is your life insurance company's business as typically there is no payout for suicide.
I am not talking suicide because I broke a nail and got a speeding ticket.
If I am already terminal, then overdosing on a prescribed pain med would be the path to take. Odds are good that no autopsy would be performed, as death would not be unexpected given my condition, and finding elevated levels of a prescription pain med would not be unexpected either. My father and I have already reached an understanding with one another on this issue. No tubes, no hospitals, no needless suffering, no wasting away.
And not all policies have a suicide exclusion - our company life insurance does not, and I know this to be true because a few months ago, we had an employee who was having marital troubles commit suicide in a company truck via a freight train. And his wife got the full payout plus all benies.
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I'm fine with that. I'm all about the personal responsibility. By all means, do it yourself, but as said before, don't bastardize the medical industry or condone contract-for-hire grim reapers to prey on pathetic cowards in a moment of despair in their desire to abandon life. That's not dignity, and that's the biggest issue I have with this.
There's also an understood assumption that these individuals are of sound mind when they're experiencing this unbearable excruciating pain that they can no longer live with... If you slam your hand with a sledge hammer a few times, let me know if that excruciating pain enables you to make sound decisions, especially those that would potentially end your life and affect those around you. I don't believe that any of you are being honest if you believe that.
You are REALLY trivializing this. If I slam my hand with a hammer, I know that despite the pain, there is a light at the end of the tunnel. It will not hurt forever. My brain can deal with that, and there is no lasting impact on my ability to reason cognitively and make decisions. I have had multiple major abdominal surgeries, and the healing of those muscles is exquisite agony, especially those first few weeks. But I know I will heal, and it gets better. I had no more doubt about my mental capactiy to reason than under normal circumstances, even though I was in serious pain.
But constant, excruciating pain, with no end in sight, with no hope of release or relief, will wear down your soul. I am not about to lie in a bed being eaten away inch by inch by some metasticized form of cancer from which I have no hope of recovery just so someone at my funeral can babble a meaningless platitude to my family that I "fought the good fight".
If someone REALLY wants to kill themselves, they will do it. I don't think Dr. Death talked these people into anything they did not want to do themselves, and in at least one case, would have done themselves if they had been physically able to do so. He did not prey upon the weak minded. Every single one of those people who died on his watch did so because they wanted to, and every single one of them was already dying, and would ultimately have died of their disease - he just hastened the process.
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Those "advances in healthcare and medicine" are part and parcel of the reason why people are turning to choosing their right to die on their own terms. Sometimes - many times - the treatment is worse than the disease. And all the treatment might do is buy some additional time, but what good is additional time if you are too sick or swollen to enjoy it? I would rather spend my last days off the treatment, stoned on pain meds as necessary, at home with my pets and surrounded by family and friends, and slip off quietly into that good night on my own terms, than to be in some hospital, hooked up to tubes, losing all my hair, dropping down to 90 lbs of skin and bones because the chemo makes me too sick to eat, watching my friends and family suffer right along with me. Medicine may keep my body alive far longer than God intended - and if it is my time to go, I want to go on my own terms, and at peace.
You are totally off the mark on this one, Gar Man. My life, my choice as to when to end it. None of your damn business, or the government's either.
You're still hung up on this... If I don't drink the koolaide, accept AND condone this reprehensible act unconditionally, I'm somehow imposing my will on others. I don't care what you do with your life. I disagree with this decision. I believe it to be a cowardly act, and I don't believe that others should participate in assisting you. If my grandmother had accepted the assessment of the first four oncologists, she would have shriveled up and died within six months, similar to your explanation above. She also would have missed almost an entire decade of her 72 year lifespan and several experiences that brought her joy and pride. There are no absolutes. The professional assessments of the first four oncologists were proven to be wrong after she continued to fight and seek alternative treatments. Sure, she had periods of pain and other discomfort... Sure, she had to endure chemo and the associated sickness... And, the end wasn't fun... She didn't give up, and she went out on her terms... terms that I find MUCH more dignified than yours...
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You are REALLY trivializing this.
I believe the same of your views on this. Treating life and death as a trivial concept... an inconvenience at times... Pardon me....
:puke: :puke: :puke:
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I'm fine with that. I'm all about the personal responsibility. By all means, do it yourself, but as said before, don't bastardize the medical industry or condone contract-for-hire grim reapers to prey on pathetic cowards in a moment of despair in their desire to abandon life. That's not dignity, and that's the biggest issue I have with this.
Why is it that they are pathetic cowards? You're not them. You're not going through what they are. It's easy for you to sit there and talk about how weak and pathetic somebody is for wanting to end their life. You're not them. It's not up to you or I to decide at what point offing yourself is cowardly or pathetic.
What is dignity? Your adult kids having to bathe you and help you go to the bathroom? Somebody having to feed you? Somebody having to bathe you 24/7? Shitting and pissing on yourself on a daily basis? Living in terrible pain on a daily basis? Withering away in front of your family and becoming a freak show? Fuck. That.
I told my wife that if anything ever happens to me where I'm in a coma or a vegetative state to give me a month, and let me go if nothing changes. That's my choice. I'm not putting my family through years of sadness, and I don't want to live that way. If that makes me pathetic or a coward, then so be it. It's my choice what I do with my life.
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Why is it that they are pathetic cowards? You're not them. You're not going through what they are. It's easy for you to sit there and talk about how weak and pathetic somebody is for wanting to end their life. You're not them. It's not up to you or I to decide at what point offing yourself is cowardly or pathetic.
Sure it is... We're all entitled to an opinion. I don't have to agree with yours, and you don't have to agree with mine. Like I said before, I really don't give a rat's ass what anyone does with their life. I don't have to accept or like your decision, and my experiences thus far have convinced me that this "offing yourself" decision is a cowardly position.
What is dignity? Your adult kids having to bathe you and help you go to the bathroom? Somebody having to feed you? Somebody having to bathe you 24/7? poopting and pissing on yourself on a daily basis? Living in terrible pain on a daily basis? Withering away in front of your family and becoming a freak show? eff. That.
Ever visit a family member in an assisted living center? You've just described most of them...
I told my wife that if anything ever happens to me where I'm in a coma or a vegetative state to give me a month, and let me go if nothing changes. That's my choice. I'm not putting my family through years of sadness, and I don't want to live that way. If that makes me pathetic or a coward, then so be it. It's my choice what I do with my life.
Well harumph, harumph, harumph... For all you know, this level of consciousness in this state could be an extreme state of pleasure or euphoria. I do understand what you're saying, but the decision to end your life in these scenarios is driven by fear. Fear of being a burden… Fear of being dependent… Fear of incapacity… Fear of an uncontrollable existence…
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Why is it that they are pathetic cowards? You're not them. You're not going through what they are. It's easy for you to sit there and talk about how weak and pathetic somebody is for wanting to end their life. You're not them. It's not up to you or I to decide at what point offing yourself is cowardly or pathetic.
What is dignity? Your adult kids having to bathe you and help you go to the bathroom? Somebody having to feed you? Somebody having to bathe you 24/7? Shitting and pissing on yourself on a daily basis? Living in terrible pain on a daily basis? Withering away in front of your family and becoming a freak show? Fuck. That.
I told my wife that if anything ever happens to me where I'm in a coma or a vegetative state to give me a month, and let me go if nothing changes. That's my choice. I'm not putting my family through years of sadness, and I don't want to live that way. If that makes me pathetic or a coward, then so be it. It's my choice what I do with my life.
It took Dr. Death to get RWS and the rest of us Aubs to agree wholeheartedly on something.
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My only point of support for assisted suicide would come from a pain standpoint. Some people can live with it and have experiences that make life worthwhile. But there are a lot of people out there in pain every day with no relief. The strongest drug we have today is still morphine. But too much of it stops your heart. And there are many people that the amount of morphine it would take to alleviate their daily pain, would either kill them or put them into a comatose like state.
But then there are people like you who have no idea what true pain is and think that these people are just faking it so they can be part of a new assisted suicide club. I assure you that for every one freak that may do that, there are many more that know that death is around the corner and they are living in hell daily with no relief. These are the people that need to have the choice.
I abhor suicide from a normal perspective. Those folks who do it because life is just too much, make me nauseated. There is help for those. We do have medication and therapy for that. And I feel like you that they are cowards and want to run from the real life. But again, they have resources to help them get better or at least cope.
But there are some the we still do not have enough medication to stop the pain enough that it is not excruciating on a daily basis. Until you have lived beside someone on a daily basis that has to take pain medicine to function each day, you have no idea what you are talking about. When the doctor says this is your only choice, and when it gets too bad that the medicine will not help anymore we do not know what to do, then these people need a choice.
People like you stand ignorantly by and think that they should just suck it up. The one's in pain pray the you never have to go through what they do. Because they know what it is like. And they do not wish it on you, even though you would force them to endure it.
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I watched my 86 year old grandfather eat Oxycotin like they were tic-tac's b/c not only was the cancer eating his body alive but the chemo was making him puke, lose weight, poop water, stay freezing cold in a 85 degree house, turning his skin greyish yellow and just basically killing him, but by all means you are correct.....if he had wanted to "end it all" he was just being a goddamn effing coward for not wanting to live in misery and put others through the hell of watching him suffer and die.
:taunt:
Oh, and btw, we (my father, my brother, uncles and myself) had several discussions with him where he would tell us that he was so sick that he prayed he would die and wished he could do as much. He basically died b/c he was so sick that the fluid build up in his lungs suffocated him. There wasn't a medicine that was going to cure him and he knew it, he had been fighting it for too many years and it kept winning. Sorry, but in that situation, I would gladly take a "night night shot" and get it over with.
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My only point of support for assisted suicide would come from a pain standpoint. Some people can live with it and have experiences that make life worthwhile. But there are a lot of people out there in pain every day with no relief. The strongest drug we have today is still morphine. But too much of it stops your heart. And there are many people that the amount of morphine it would take to alleviate their daily pain, would either kill them or put them into a comatose like state.
But then there are people like you who have no idea what true pain is and think that these people are just faking it so they can be part of a new assisted suicide club. I assure you that for every one freak that may do that, there are many more that know that death is around the corner and they are living in hell daily with no relief. These are the people that need to have the choice.
I abhor suicide from a normal perspective. Those folks who do it because life is just too much, make me nauseated. There is help for those. We do have medication and therapy for that. And I feel like you that they are cowards and want to run from the real life. But again, they have resources to help them get better or at least cope.
But there are some the we still do not have enough medication to stop the pain enough that it is not excruciating on a daily basis. Until you have lived beside someone on a daily basis that has to take pain medicine to function each day, you have no idea what you are talking about. When the doctor says this is your only choice, and when it gets too bad that the medicine will not help anymore we do not know what to do, then these people need a choice.
People like you stand ignorantly by and think that they should just suck it up. The one's in pain pray the you never have to go through what they do. Because they know what it is like. And they do not wish it on you, even though you would force them to endure it.
I don't need to rape a child, know a pedophile or have been raped as a child to assess that pedophilia is wrong. I don't even need to be a parent to determine their punishment... slow, painful disembowelment followed by dismemberment with a rusty spoon. It'll hurt more. Back on topic, I'm not forcing anybody to do anything here, and I don't have to approve of the concept. I do not agree that the medical industry should be bastardized to put people down like the local animal shelter or vet does with strays and sick animals. Exaggeration? Perhaps, to an extent... Nobody is forcing these people to do anything. If medical care is keeping them alive, they can refuse it if that's their wish.
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I don't need to rape a child, know a pedophile or have been raped as a child to assess that pedophilia is wrong. I don't even need to be a parent to determine their punishment... slow, painful disembowelment followed by dismemberment with a rusty spoon. It'll hurt more. Back on topic, I'm not forcing anybody to do anything here, and I don't have to approve of the concept. I do not agree that the medical industry should be bastardized to put people down like the local animal shelter or vet does with strays and sick animals. Exaggeration? Perhaps, to an extent... Nobody is forcing these people to do anything. If medical care is keeping them alive, they can refuse it if that's their wish.
Not getting the big picture.
I think we're stuck in a "personal opinion vs legal right" blackhole here. Hate it all you want personally. But what someone wants to do in regards to ending their pain and suffering on their own terms is should only be the business of them and their family. Not a state gov't, not a federal gov't. They are not doing anything to kill or harm anyone else. I do not know why that cannot be a legal choice. Like AUT1, I watched my grandfather suffer and die from Alzheimers. Horrible horrible death. I would love for someone to be able to choose NOT to go through that type of pain and suffering if given the option ahead of time.
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He basically died b/c he was so sick that the fluid build up in his lungs suffocated him.
But, as far as you know, that felt euphoric.
:sad:
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Not getting the big picture.
I think we're stuck in a "personal opinion vs legal right" blackhole here. Hate it all you want personally. But what someone wants to do in regards to ending their pain and suffering on their own terms is should only be the business of them and their family. Not a state gov't, not a federal gov't. They are not doing anything to kill or harm anyone else. I do not know why that cannot be a legal choice. Like AUT1, I watched my grandfather suffer and die from Alzheimers. Horrible horrible death. I would love for someone to be able to choose NOT to go through that type of pain and suffering if given the option ahead of time.
I've got the big picture. I've been close enough to the horrendous terminal cancer battles of four grandparents and an uncle. My opinion isn't going to change, and I don't know how much more clearly I can say the following. I'm not imposing my views or suggesting any laws to constrain anyone else's decisions. I don't approve of the concept, and I don't believe the medical industry should provide supportive services to put people down. That's all. What do you folks really expect here? Legalized euthanasia or suicide? Or, do you need everyone else's acceptance and approval of your position on the matter? That last one's not going to happen...