ESPN Recruiting Rankings

[JR4AU]

I may be. But its how I feel.

The Tubs haters give him a pass on the '99 season, then from his tenure they recall Fred Talley romp through Jordan-Hare and the 2008 season, and can recall little else, and almost nothing positive.  Sad really. 

[GH2001]

The Tubs haters give him a pass on the '99 season, then from his tenure they recall Fred Talley romp through Jordan-Hare and the 2008 season, and can recall little else, and almost nothing positive.  Sad really. 

Yeah, thats it. You got it. Thats exactly why I dont care for him. You are so intelligent JR.

[JR4AU]

Yeah, thats it. You got it. Thats exactly why I dont care for him. You are so intelligent JR.

I only go by what I hear a majority of Tubs haters say...I'd love to hear something different. 

[JR4AU]

Yeah, thats it. You got it. Thats exactly why I dont care for him. You are so intelligent JR.

BTW, I would agree with the Tubs haters in that it was time for a change, he'd lost his edge, and recruting had fallen off...I"m just able to see all the good he did.  Hopefully that will ward off a pissing match.

[GH2001]

I only go by what I hear a majority of Tubs haters say...I'd love to hear something different. 

Actually only the 2008 season sticks out as valid amongst anything you mentioned for me. The mutiny that was created on the staff with the Franklin debacle was all on him. You could spot that disaster a mile away.

But the loyalty to the complacent staff, lack luster recruiting, highest attrition rate in the SEC and the general malaise he showed the last 2-3 years along with the decline in SEC record from 2004 to 2008 - all are factors to me. I never liked his refusal to put the foot on the throat when ahead in a game. The "jump out to a 14-0 and hang on for dear life" in game management never suited me much. There are more things but these are the biggies to me. Its pretty apparent that when Saban had been at Bama for a year that Tubs had no more energy left and knew he couldnt compete. Franklin was a mere desperation move and it back fired in a huge way.

[JR4AU]

Actually only the 2008 season sticks out as valid amongst anything you mentioned for me. The mutiny that was created on the staff with the Franklin debacle was all on him. You could spot that disaster a mile away.

But the loyalty to the complacent staff, lack luster recruiting, highest attrition rate in the SEC and the general malaise he showed the last 2-3 years along with the decline in SEC record from 2004 to 2008 - all are factors to me. I never liked his refusal to put the foot on the throat when ahead in a game. The "jump out to a 14-0 and hang on for dear life" in game management never suited me much. There are more things but these are the biggies to me. Its pretty apparent that when Saban had been at Bama for a year that Tubs had no more energy left and knew he couldnt compete. Franklin was a mere desperation move and it back fired in a huge way.

Well, sir, then I think you and I would agree 100%.  I can't say I would have given him a pass on the last 2-3 years, but had he had the nuts to fire his core staff, and hire some young, new,  go-getters, I'd have liked to have seen him get a shot at it under those circumstances.  I think it would have worked, and he could have let the young bucks go do all the work and been ok just being a closer.  He chose to go down with his staff though.  And if he wasn't willing to make changes, he needed to go.   

[AUChizad]

I think most everyone on both sides of this "debate" actually agree.

He is deserving of his mural, and fond memories. But he had expired by the end there. No bad blood, just time for a change.

As far as his success at TTU, I want him to do well, just not too well. I don't want his legacy to be attached to the TTU job. I want him to be remembered in the grand scheme of things by the general public as Auburn's head coach, that ended his career at TTU. Not TTU's savior that started his career at AU.

My $0.02.

[JR4AU]

I think most everyone on both sides of this "debate" actually agree.

I don't want his legacy to be attached to the TTU job. I want him to be remembered in the grand scheme of things by the general public as Auburn's head coach, that ended his career at TTU. Not TTU's savior that started his career at AU.

My $0.02.

I doubt there's much chance he can improve on what Leach did at TT.  He's have to win a Big XII (or whatever conf they wind up in) title.  I think if Tubs, as he appears to have done, commits to keeping things status quo at TT, meaning lets the offense do it's thing, he'll win 8-10 games a year, and in 3 years, he'll be back in the mix for a big time job again.  If he fails at TT, and he could if he hasn't learned and grown some, then he's done.

[jmar]

Without insider info, this is what I go by. I compare the stats of two very different men, Auburn men, their circumstances coming in, and their departure. They both started and finished similarly. There was turmoil in-between, not a smooth relay.  

Dye    99-39-4  48-27-3  6-2-1    4 western div. 2/2    12 seasons

Tubs   85-40     52-30     5-3      5                  2/3     10

And I think Tubs missed out on the big score because he wanted a like situation to Ole Miss. You become a Jim Donnan if you lay out too long.

[jmar]

Change the scenerio: If you had to work for a man you actually liked, who stood up for you on several occaisions and you were welcome at his home, even witnessed a failed coup attempt on his job and some personal troubles on the side, wouldn't you respect him more for going down with the ship than to start tossing his men overboard?

I just don't think we can be objective about a position like that. There was a loyalty there. Now he could have reversed fields and dug his way out of the Franklin hire but it would be very difficult. He actually did everyone involved a huge favor by cutting away cleanly, got paid, and kept his mouth shut.

[JR4AU]

Change the scenerio: If you had to work for a man you actually liked, who stood up for you on several occaisions and you were welcome at his home, even witnessed a failed coup attempt on his job and some personal troubles on the side, wouldn't you respect him more for going down with the ship than to start tossing his men overboard?

I just don't think we can be objective about a position like that. There was a loyalty there. Now he could have reversed fields and dug his way out of the Franklin hire but it would be very difficult. He actually did everyone involved a huge favor by cutting away cleanly, got paid, and kept his mouth shut.

While I agree, the problem starts with getting too familiar with your ACs to begin with.  And keeping ACs around that have no REAL ambition to move up and out to better jobs.  In coaching, at this level, I think you're better off to surround yourself with young whipper snappers that want to move up.  Hungry, eager to make their mark, and to help them do so.  You want guys that are loyal to you, and will support your philosophy, even if they don't really agree with it, in order to win, and as a result help themselves better themselves.  What Tubs had was a bunch of guys that knew that if there were philisophical differences on the staff that they'd survive and the "outsider" would take the blame and the fall. 

[jmar]

While I agree, the problem starts with getting too familiar with your ACs to begin with.  And keeping ACs around that have no REAL ambition to move up and out to better jobs.  In coaching, at this level, I think you're better off to surround yourself with young whipper snappers that want to move up.  Hungry, eager to make their mark, and to help them do so.  You want guys that are loyal to you, and will support your philosophy, even if they don't really agree with it, in order to win, and as a result help themselves better themselves.  What Tubs had was a bunch of guys that knew that if there were philisophical differences on the staff that they'd survive and the "outsider" would take the blame and the fall. 

I agree with that. But it really can't be both ways. Do we not brag about continuity presently? No one wants to lose Malzahn. What if there is a MNC won here very soon. When any AC is here 5 years is he considered old guard? What if they like coaching here, love Auburn, raise families here. Are they not ambitious enough or do they choose stability? Chizik can always add some new blood to do leg work. But the core is just what it means, the heart and soul. It's a statement of sorts: This is who we are, this is our philosophy.

[JR4AU]

I agree with that. But it really can't be both ways. Do we not brag about continuity presently? No one wants to lose Malzahn. What if there is a MNC won here very soon. When any AC is here 5 years is he considered old guard? What if they like coaching here, love Auburn, raise families here. Are they not ambitious enough or do they choose stability? Chizik can always add some new blood to do leg work. But the core is just what it means, the heart and soul. It's a statement of sorts: This is who we are, this is our philosophy.

I think many confuse stagnation with continuity.  A good CEO can maintain continuity through changes in personnel.  Complacency arises when people get too comfortable. 

[jmar]

I think many confuse stagnation with continuity.  A good CEO can maintain continuity through changes in personnel.  Complacency arises when people get too comfortable. 

Perhaps some do. But what's wrong with: I coach the offensive line for the SEC West Division Champs, the Auburn Tigers. Yep, been at it for 5 years and lovin' every minute of it. Am I complacent because I choose not to go to Jacksonville St. for a coordinator job to "make my mark?"

[GH2001]

I think many confuse stagnation with continuity.  A good CEO can maintain continuity through changes in personnel.  Complacency arises when people get too comfortable. 

Hugh Nall and Greg Knox - fuck them both in da mouf 3 times.

[djsimp]

In hindsight, Tubs has been shown up with the current cruiten coaches. It has been damn amazing what these guys have done and are doing. It's called revolution. As an individual though, I still like Tubs and yes, he did get being the HC at Auburn and what it meant to be an Auburn Tiger.

[GH2001]

In hindsight, Tubs has been shown up with the current cruiten coaches. It has been damn amazing what these guys have done and are doing. It's called revolution. As an individual though, I still like Tubs and yes, he did get being the HC at Auburn and what it meant to be an Auburn Tiger.

If Chiz keeps the current pace in recruiting, it blows anything Tubs did off the map. Not even close. These guys are going after big game.

[djsimp]

If Chiz keeps the current pace in recruiting, it blows anything Tubs did off the map. Not even close. These guys are going after big game.

I can't argue with the facts. Besides having all the talent on roster that went undefeated in 04, Tubs can't even drink the same bath water. Simply amazing.

[GH2001]

But Johnny Lee Dixon had so much promise....

[JR4AU]

If Chiz keeps the current pace in recruiting, it blows anything Tubs did off the map. Not even close. These guys are going after big game.

Gonna have to disagree there.  Tubs and Co. recruited that group on the 2003-2005 teams.  I think all but maybe one or 2 of the offensive side of the ball on the 2004 squad made NFL rosters, and we all know about Jason, Carnell and Ronnie.  They quit after the 2003 season for the most part.  By the way, Dye and his clan got fat and happy too.  You can try to excuse what happened to them in 91 and 92 with all the off field Ramsey stuff, but fact of the matter is they were still loaded with talent, as was evidenced by the 93 team, and managed just about a .500 mark their last 2 years.  If you give Dye a pass, then you have to excuse Tubs and the BBQ boys for their "quit" because of the failed coup attempt in 2003, and not getting to play for the BCS Title in 2004.  Both were pretty hard shots to the nut sack.  And, I don't excuse them...you coach and recruit until you're no longer the coach, just pointing out facts.  The grind is grueling in the SEC.  Recruiting and the season, you can't let up.  I'm a fan of the way the Pittsburg Steelers, and Titan's/Oilers run things in the NFL, and have always been proud to see Penn State let Joe Pa work through some bad years.  We don't allow that here, and thus a coaches useful life is probably 10 years max, less if he doesn't show real promise of winning a championship in the first 4 years.  See Mark Richt for reference.  His 2 SEC Titles have become a distant memory, and his 2008 campaign of 10-3 was a major disappointment from the #1 pre-season pick, then last year's 8 win mark won't do at all.  It's obvious his talent has fallen off somewhat, and probably is a product of just getting tired, complacent, and needing a break, which we don't allow SEC coaches.