Misguided? Really??? Seriously???????

[GH2001]

Which is exactly why the bill is unconstitutional on its face.

Actually- no its not. I respect AWK and he knows more about law than I do as a whole, but there are certain circumstances where this bill is not unconstitutional. In this case the Arizona bill merely reinforces existing federal immigration laws and creates no new immigration crimes.

"The bill adheres to the doctrine of concurrent enforcement – the legal principle that preemption will not be found where a state law prohibits conduct that is already prohibited under federal law"

As GarMan said, its actually quite a tame bill as compared to the bad press it has received.

But whats strange to me here is that many on here (and Obama) did not pull out the "unconstitutional card" on the VERY unconstitutional HC Bill.

[Iwannaplay]

But whats strange to me here is that many on here (and Obama) did not pull out the "unconstitutional card" on the VERY unconstitutional HC Bill.

Commerce clause.. It sucks, but that's how Congress has authority to pass something like the HC Bill.  They can create laws/or programs for anything affecting interstate commerce.  It's a very broad power.

[CCTAU]

I've dealt with a good number of these families over the past three years, and let me tell you something - they're wonderful people.  Absolutely wonderful.  They have it rough...yeah.  The males get into some trouble, but it's no different than the trouble white boys are getting into.  But they are all mostly generous, compassionate people who attend church as much as you or I do.  In fact, as an aggregate, I bet they have a higher percentage of church goers (or those practicing some form of standardized morality) than legal Americans.

Giving the country away one illegal family at a time. Thank you for deciding where my extra money should go .

I wish we could shoot people like you for having such an intolerable attitude.  I bet that would make me feel better too to just eliminate those who are seemingly holding back our country from resembling any sort of progression.  

Give it your best shot. I'm ready. Are you?

If you haven't gotten it yet, go fuck yourself.  Asshole.  

I don't really need to perform that selfish act with people like you willing to do it for me. Thanks for the love.


That's the difference. There are many more just like me that are afraid to say anything because of the self-righteous little pricks like you. But the fact remains that our country is being invaded by people who could care less what happens to it 20 -30 years down the road. Because by then, we will all be no better than Mexico, and the invaders would have won. I'm glad you are pissed. Maybe when your position on the subject causes you considerable discomfort, you will look back on this and think we should have taken a tougher stance. Until then, by all means, adopt an illegal family for your own so my tax dollars do not have to support them.


Arizona is doing what it takes to make their state safer. I applaud them. To those who oppose, may you be lucky enough to escape the negative issues of illegal immigration. It seems the good folks of Arizona have not been so lucky.


BTW. It is quite scary when even I am too controversial for the X. It may just be the older I get, the more I want you little piss-ants off my lawn.

[GH2001]

Giving the country away one illegal family at a time. Thank you for deciding where my extra money should go .

Give it your best shot. I'm ready. Are you?

I don't really need to perform that selfish act with people like you willing to do it for me. Thanks for the love.


That's the difference. There are many more just like me that are afraid to say anything because of the self-righteous little pricks like you. But the fact remains that our country is being invaded by people who could care less what happens to it 20 -30 years down the road. Because by then, we will all be no better than Mexico, and the invaders would have won. I'm glad you are pissed. Maybe when your position on the subject causes you considerable discomfort, you will look back on this and think we should have taken a tougher stance. Until then, by all means, adopt an illegal family for your own so my tax dollars do not have to support them.


Arizona is doing what it takes to make their state safer. I applaud them. To those who oppose, may you be lucky enough to escape the negative issues of illegal immigration. It seems the good folks of Arizona have not been so lucky.


BTW. It is quite scary when even I am too controversial for the X. It may just be the older I get, the more I want you little piss-ants off my lawn.

Well said CCT. As JA also eluded to - most of them don't want to be legal. Ive talked to many, MANY foreigners I work with on temp visas/H1B's that have personally told me they don't want to be citizens - Mexicans, Indians, Chinese - you name it. They will tell you point blank that they are here to work and send the money back home because their home country doesnt provide much opportunity. Geez - sounds like their problem doesnt it? Maybe these other counries should try this capitalism thing.  If what they are telling me is true , then wes, the raising of the limit wouldnt do a damn thing.  Do the minorities in this country - illegal or not - realize that if this welfare type system in its form today and where its headed, had been in place for the last century instead of just recently - there would be no opportunities them NOW?  They are trying to destroy the very system that made this country rich and prosperous. I say the same thing about Michael Moore and his crap - if he lived in a country that had the ideal form of govt he desires, he wouldnt have been able to make the millions that he has. He is against the very system that made him rich. I guess once your rich though, its ok. He's already made his money. Right  - I get it.

THS - I usually agree with you on most things but your rant was a little over the top for you.  Why do people on this board hate white men so much? That shit gets old. Bad whitey bad whitey. Good gosh - let it go. Has your recent college experience indoctrinated you young fuckers THAT much?

[Kaos]

Yes, I do realize that.  Thus my suggestion that we do what we can to document/legitimize those without history of violent crime and begin to make them less of an illegal burden and more of a legal contributing force.

I understand this, and I do not have the numbers, but I would think (opinion without referential basis alert!!!) that the vast majority do not have false SS#s.

Your thinking would be wrong.  It's something I have to deal with all the time in my business.  You would be shocked at the number of times people try to pass off SSNs that belong to others.  And we only catch the ones that use fake numbers that have already been entered in our system.  It was so bad that we had to write an entire program to root them out and generate a secondary ID number.

[Kaos]

The problem is the illogically low quota number. There is a finite number of spots available every year and when they're taken, that's it. So, why not increase the quota number in order to document the immigrants properly?

I don't think you'll see a line of demarcation between "secure border" and logical immigration policy, so why not work on both in tandem?

I guess it seems to me that you're exaggerating the rioting and killing in the streets.

You know what's a good quota number?  ZE-FUCKING-RO.  Until this country can take care of its own problems we don't need anybody else's.  We're not getting the brightest and most industrious as we once did when the European immigration was at its peak and scientists, engineers, doctors and scholars were coming.  Or when Russia collapsed and their similar groups flocked here.  No, what we get -- particularly with the illegals -- is the bottom of the barrel scum.  Murderers, thieves, con artists, drug dealers, hoodlums, thugs...

We don't need a quota, we need to shut it down.

[Kaos]

After giving this a little thought, I don't think i would like the quota increased.  I like the idea of a "slow bleed" into society.  For most immigrants, it takes considerable time to assimilate to the culture.  It takes time to learn the language, get work, establish credit, rent an apartment, but a car, have kids, etc.  

AND THEREIN LIES THE FUCKING PROBLEM...

They aren't assimilating. They aren't learning the culture. They aren't learning the language. They're not getting credit or paying taxes. They're not becoming members of American society.  Instead they -- with the support of our useless government and pandering fucks like Lowes -- are forcing their (substandard or they wouldn't be here) culture on US.

I have no problem at all with people who come to this country to be a part of it.  I have a major issue with anybody -- whether they be Mexican, Muslim, Swedish, French, Norwegian or Chinese -- who comes here and expects everyone else to adapt.  Fuck that.   

[CCTAU]

Your thinking would be wrong.  It's something I have to deal with all the time in my business.  You would be shocked at the number of times people try to pass off SSNs that belong to others.  And we only catch the ones that use fake numbers that have already been entered in our system.  It was so bad that we had to write an entire program to root them out and generate a secondary ID number.

I don't think the average American is educated enough on this subject to know what is happening. As I get older, I have friends who have started and maintained successful businesses. This is a huge problem for them. One in  which the government refuses to step in and help. They stipulate that the businesses MUST hire legals, but give them no tools to check for sure. Some can only go with the number they get and send their part of the taxes to that number. If in the end it is a bogus number, they have at least done their part. They encourage their employees to pay taxes (LOL) but if I served food to someone for a living and could get away without paying taxes because I knew I was illegal anyway, why would I pay. A SSN number tied to an identification card with a picture should be mandatory and accessible by employers at time of application. This way the employers could see if the picture matches the number. These types of ideas would preclude the urge for many of us to shoot the invaders on sight. When your own government does not care, it builds extreme frustration on the REAL citizens' part.

[GH2001]

You know what's a good quota number?  ZE-phukING-RO.  Until this country can take care of its own problems we don't need anybody else's.  We're not getting the brightest and most industrious as we once did when the European immigration was at its peak and scientists, engineers, doctors and scholars were coming.  Or when Russia collapsed and their similar groups flocked here.  No, what we get -- particularly with the illegals -- is the bottom of the barrel scum.  Murderers, thieves, con artists, drug dealers, hoodlums, thugs...

We don't need a quota, we need to shut it down.

Especially since MOST of them don't want to be permanent citizens. They just want the fruits without paying the dues.

[AWK]

You know what's a good quota number?  ZE-FUCKING-RO.  Until this country can take care of its own problems we don't need anybody else's.  We're not getting the brightest and most industrious as we once did when the European immigration was at its peak and scientists, engineers, doctors and scholars were coming.  Or when Russia collapsed and their similar groups flocked here.  No, what we get -- particularly with the illegals -- is the bottom of the barrel scum.  Murderers, thieves, con artists, drug dealers, hoodlums, thugs...

We don't need a quota, we need to shut it down.

First, that is absolutely false.  I would love for you provide some statistics or a link that shows all immigrants, particularly illegals, are all murderers, thieves, etc...

Second, I find it absolutely hilarious how it is perfectly fine to you when white European immigrants that just happen to be scientists, engineers, and doctors come over, but not the day workers.

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

Where does it say give me your wealthy, educated, and rich?  Oh wait, nevermind, scratch that, that doesn't apply to this situation......

[AuburnChopper 3.0]

AWK's response is a perfect example of bleeding heart liberalism.

1.  Ignore the direct impact of the total issue of immigration on the country and the financial ruin it's causing.

2.  Attack those that oppose the current state of immigration, not immigration itself in an attempt to demonize.

This is exactly why politics in general are a total failure.

It's Auburn vs. Alabama, Ohio State vs. Michigan...Yale vs. Harvard.  It's a black and white battle with one side only looking for and searching out something to attack the other, rather than see the common ground to work from.

You're either for or against.  You're either compassionate, or a racist bigot against everything this country was founded.

Fuck that.  Why bother debating at all?

[AuburnChopper 3.0]

Second, I find it absolutely hilarious how it is perfectly fine to you when white European immigrants that just happen to be scientists, engineers, and doctors come over, but not the day workers.

You mock Kaos's response by uttering a completely ridiculous one in return?  How's that going to work for you?  Okay, so give me an example of where litertally MILLIONS of undocumented white European immigrants are hopping the border and sending money home to their home country while draining the one they're in dry?  That was said out of emotioin, and was a poor poor response.

Where does it say give me your wealthy, educated, and rich?  Oh wait, nevermind, scratch that, that doesn't apply to this situation......

Can we look for a few other founding father era documents that talk about legally being a citizen, or at minimum the basic responsibility of paying taxes?  I'm sure there's something there also.  Might not be found on the Statue of Liberty.....but...

[Token]

I've gathering data and researching the demographics here to determine exactly what the deciding factors are that separates the angry white men from the elitist.  There is a trend, but I'll need a few more days of research before I disclose my findings.

[Kaos]

First, that is absolutely false.  I would love for you provide some statistics or a link that shows all immigrants, particularly illegals, are all murderers, thieves, etc...

Second, I find it absolutely hilarious how it is perfectly fine to you when white European immigrants that just happen to be scientists, engineers, and doctors come over, but not the day workers.

Where does it say give me your wealthy, educated, and rich?  Oh wait, nevermind, scratch that, that doesn't apply to this situation......

Things change. 

I think the statistics on crime in the Southwest, as already posted by others, clearly support the contention that illegal aliens as a whole are responsible for a disproportionate percentage of crimes committed.  Would you like for me to point you to the information already posted in this thread or can you find it yourself?

[AUChizad]

First, that is absolutely false.  I would love for you provide some statistics or a link that shows all immigrants, particularly illegals, are all murderers, thieves, etc...

Second, I find it absolutely hilarious how it is perfectly fine to you when white European immigrants that just happen to be scientists, engineers, and doctors come over, but not the day workers.

Where does it say give me your wealthy, educated, and rich?  Oh wait, nevermind, scratch that, that doesn't apply to this situation......

Let alone the obvious fact that if your quota is "ZE-FUCKING-RO", then 100% of immigrants will be illegal. So either he's a complete idiot, or just trying to argue to argue. Can't ever tell with him.

AWK's response is a perfect example of bleeding heart liberalism.

1.  Ignore the direct impact of the total issue of immigration on the country and the financial ruin it's causing.

2.  Attack those that oppose the current state of immigration, not immigration itself in an attempt to demonize.

This is exactly why politics in general are a total failure.

It's Auburn vs. Alabama, Ohio State vs. Michigan...Yale vs. Harvard.  It's a black and white battle with one side only looking for and searching out something to attack the other, rather than see the common ground to work from.

You're either for or against.  You're either compassionate, or a racist bigot against everything this country was founded.

Fuck that.  Why bother debating at all?

WTF is with you people? God forbid you ever encounter an actual liberal, as no "Democrats" or hard left-leaning individuals even post on this site.

So because he demands proof to Kaos's claim that all, or even most, illegal Mexican immigrants are rapists and murderers, and then in the same breath says those "clean European immigrants" who become doctors & lawyers are ok, he's just being a pigheaded bleeding heart liberal? Are you people even for real?

Advocating lining up "brown people" and shooting them on site? That's level headed debate? That's called being a sociopath.

Look, if you want to advocate beefing up border security, or even stricter punishment for the illegals who are caught, then that's fine and dandy. When you think it's a good idea to require a certain race in our country to have their "papers" on them at all times, that is babbling lunacy. When you advocate "shooting them on site. Yes all of them", that is batshit insane.

And the few that say "hold up, don't you guys think you're taking it a little to far?" are the extreme wacko liberals? In what world?

[AWK]

AWK's response is a perfect example of bleeding heart liberalism.

1.  Ignore the direct impact of the total issue of immigration on the country and the financial ruin it's causing.

2.  Attack those that oppose the current state of immigration, not immigration itself in an attempt to demonize.

This is exactly why politics in general are a total failure.

It's Auburn vs. Alabama, Ohio State vs. Michigan...Yale vs. Harvard.  It's a black and white battle with one side only looking for and searching out something to attack the other, rather than see the common ground to work from.

You're either for or against.  You're either compassionate, or a racist bigot against everything this country was founded.

Fuck that.  Why bother debating at all?

No. Sorry. Kaos made a completely false statement...then followed it with the ironic "we want the smart ones not the day workers!" comment.  I'm sorry if I can't stand by why people make wild statements. 

I wasn't commenting on the socio-economic blah blah blah, I was responding to Kaos.  Panties, out of a wad.

[AWK]

Which, by the way, the quote that was ignored by everyone...

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

is from the inscription on the Statue of Liberty...but fuck that, lets shoot 'em all.

[GH2001]

I've gathering data and researching the demographics here to determine exactly what the deciding factors are that separates the angry white men from the elitist.  There is a trend, but I'll need a few more days of research before I disclose my findings.

And AWK - MOST of the Europeans did it LEGALLY. I know mine did. I don't know much about you guys or your family history on here but I will tell you a little of mine. 6 of my 8 Great Grandparents descended from County Cavan, Ireland, the other 2 were Welsh. I have photocopies of immigration records where it was done legally -Thanks to ancestry.com (that site is amazing by the way).  

You cannot tell me that MOST people jumping the southern border want to be LEGAL fruitful citizens, in it for the long haul and want to help America build into something greater while assimilating into our society. The Europeans did it the way it was intended.  If they hadn't America never would have became what it is.  There are stark differences in the immigration from  1780-1930  and the current influx. One group played by the rules, and the other is not.

[AuburnChopper 3.0]

WTF is with you people? God forbid you ever encounter an actual liberal, as no "Democrats" or hard left-leaning individuals even post on this site.

So because he demands proof to Kaos's claim that all, or even most, illegal Mexican immigrants are rapists and murderers, and then in the same breath says those "clean European immigrants" who become doctors & lawyers are ok, he's just being a pigheaded bleeding heart liberal? Are you people even for real?

Advocating lining up "brown people" and shooting them on site? That's level headed debate? That's called being a sociopath.

Look, if you want to advocate beefing up border security, or even stricter punishment for the illegals who are caught, then that's fine and dandy. When you think it's a good idea to require a certain race in our country to have their "papers" on them at all times, that is babbling lunacy. When you advocate "shooting them on site. Yes all of them", that is batshit insane.

And the few that say "hold up, don't you guys think you're taking it a little to far?" are the extreme wacko liberals? In what world?

I think if you go back and look at my posts, you'll find that I'm about as center as I could be.  Nothing close to whacko righty.  In fact, I even catagorized CC's post (about the shooting, blah blah) as idiotic in response to TH's post.

Look, my issue is (and it's happening here, just like it is nationally), that you're either for, or against, and if you're against the Arizona bill, or against slowing down the flow of immigrants into this country, that you're automatically coming from a racist premise.  That is fundementally false.

I'm not against immigrants.  I'm not against those wanting to come here for a better life.  I applaud that, and I don't care what end of the socio-economic scale that comes from.

However, when millions of people are here NOW that we can NOT control, and all I hear are long term plans from the far left that seems to solve the problem maybe in ten years, and not in the immediate, or even shorter terms (say less than 3-5 years), I see a major gap and ignorance to the problems that exist.

I called AWK a bleeding heart liberal (in his response only) because of the Statue of Liberty reference.   Who here doesn't love the Statue of Liberty and what it stands for?  I'd guess, nobody.  However, if he had just gone after Kaos's reference, and attacked that only, he probably wouldn't have heard from me.  I think the fact that there isn't a current issue with undocumented Europeans (in general) makes even bringing that arguement is apples and oranges in this case.  It doesn't exist, and it doesn't have squat to do with race.

I hope I'm clear.

Which, by the way, the quote that was ignored by everyone...

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

is from the inscription on the Statue of Liberty...but fuck that, lets shoot 'em all.

I think your issue is with CCTAU and others that have that issue, and maybe you should address them directly instead of using "everyone" ignored....

I think we've seen it.  I believe in what it says, but freedom isn't free in terms of the lives lost to provide it, and the responsibilities that come with it once it's earned.

Let's not forget that part everytime you decide to play the emotion card, and post that passage.

[AWK]

I think if you go back and look at my posts, you'll find that I'm about as center as I could be.  Nothing close to whacko righty.  In fact, I even catagorized CC's post (about the shooting, blah blah) as idiotic in response to TH's post.

Look, my issue is (and it's happening here, just like it is nationally), that you're either for, or against, and if you're against the Arizona bill, or against slowing down the flow of immigrants into this country, that you're automatically coming from a racist premise.  That is fundementally false.

I'm not against immigrants.  I'm not against those wanting to come here for a better life.  I applaud that, and I don't care what end of the socio-economic scale that comes from.

However, when millions of people are here NOW that we can NOT control, and all I hear are long term plans from the far left that seems to solve the problem maybe in ten years, and not in the immediate, or even shorter terms (say less than 3-5 years), I see a major gap and ignorance to the problems that exist.

I called AWK a bleeding heart liberal (in his response only) because of the Statue of Liberty reference.   Who here doesn't love the Statue of Liberty and what it stands for?  I'd guess, nobody.  However, if he had just gone after Kaos's reference, and attacked that only, he probably wouldn't have heard from me.  I think the fact that there isn't a current issue with undocumented Europeans (in general) makes even bringing that arguement is apples and oranges in this case.  It doesn't exist, and it doesn't have squat to do with race.

I hope I'm clear.

I think your issue is with CCTAU and others that have that issue, and maybe you should address them directly instead of using "everyone" ignored....

I think we've seen it.  I believe in what it says, but freedom isn't free in terms of the lives lost to provide it, and the responsibilities that come with it once it's earned.

Let's not forget that part everytime you decide to play the emotion card, and post that passage.

No.  Kaos made a comment, I responded.  It had nothing to do you.

You called me a bleeding heart liberal because I made a reference to the statue of liberty...and you believe that European documented immigrants are different than illegals today.  I have to disagree.   

READ THIS CAREFULLY, BECAUSE IT IS IMPORTANT.  Most immigrants of that time were granted documents once they stepped off the boat. They had a system in place that worked.  Now a days, we could do the same, and choose not to.  That is our fatal flaw. 

The statue of liberty reference pertains to this very situation, whether you like it or not.  Just because it is counter to a belief you have or the way you think does not it make it "different this time."  Freedom is a two way street, you have to accept the good with the bad.  You can't have your cake and eat it too.