Misguided? Really??? Seriously???????

[GH2001]

What is your position on the 3rd world conditions of many trailer parks around Alabama, inhabited mostly by white folk?

Notice this didn't exist until.....

[AuburnChopper 3.0]

This thread is absolutely ridiculous.  It's been turned into exactly what the democrats want.  A full on war on all the issues but the basic one that caused the law to be written in the first place.

The problem is simple, and it doesn't have shit to do with people's thoughts on the hard working "livin' on the cheap" illegal immigrants.  It has to do with the drug war that's now spreading to the streets of Tuscon, Phoenix and other American cities.  US Citizens are in danger while this goes on.  It's an absolute crisis.

The governor of Arizona has sent FIVE letters asking for assistance from Obama.  To be fair, she sent letters to Bush.  In the last year and a half the violence has escalated to a point that has become to much for local and state law enforcement. 

Directly due to the lack of response from the federal government, Arizona has acted.  If it's unconsititutional, it'll get struck down, and they'll be in the same spot.  So what's next after that to take care of the immediate concern of the killing in the streets.

I've asked this question several times in this thread and in typical Democrat fashion, it gets ignored to focus on the racism and civil rights aspect.  All complaints with absolutly ZERO idea on why, by his own admission, Obama and the federal government have failed the people of Arizona.

Pathetic. 

[AWK]

This thread is absolutely ridiculous.  It's been turned into exactly what the democrats want.  A full on war on all the issues but the basic one that caused the law to be written in the first place.

The problem is simple, and it doesn't have shit to do with people's thoughts on the hard working "livin' on the cheap" illegal immigrants.  It has to do with the drug war that's now spreading to the streets of Tuscon, Phoenix and other American cities.  US Citizens are in danger while this goes on.  It's an absolute crisis.

The governor of Arizona has sent FIVE letters asking for assistance from Obama.  To be fair, she sent letters to Bush.  In the last year and a half the violence has escalated to a point that has become to much for local and state law enforcement. 

Directly due to the lack of response from the federal government, Arizona has acted.  If it's unconsititutional, it'll get struck down, and they'll be in the same spot.  So what's next after that to take care of the immediate concern of the killing in the streets.

I've asked this question several times in this thread and in typical Democrat fashion, it gets ignored to focus on the racism and civil rights aspect.  All complaints with absolutly ZERO idea on why, by his own admission, Obama and the federal government have failed the people of Arizona.

Pathetic. 

The real solution to the problem can be resolved by answering one question:  Why are they coming here?

Answer that, and fix it, and the problem will fix itself.

[jadennis]

Ah jeez.

Those damned dirty brown people, even the ones here legally,  are trying to make the US over as a 3rd world country by living on the cheap.

What is your position on the 3rd world conditions of many trailer parks around Alabama, inhabited mostly by white folk?

I rolled my eyes at the "trying to make the US over as a 3rd world country".

But, I also think you're idea of getting the ones that are here to work hard and earn an honest living to just sign up to be tax paying citizens is unrealistic too.

Most of them, even honest, hard working ones, don't want to be citizens.  They aren't here illegally simply because the US quota for accepting immigrants is too low.  They don't want to be documented.  They don't want to vote, pay taxes, etc.  Most of them want to fly under the radar, make their money, send some of it home, and do their thing without a trace.

That is by far the biggest threat to America...and mostly because it's so subtle and seemingly harmless (after all, they are just hard working people trying to make it through life, how much of a threat can that be?).   As we briefly touched on before, it costs us an enormous amount of money.  We would make back ten-fold the cost of building a high tech wall within 5 years.  Not to the national budget's bottom line, but to the bank accounts of Americans.  

My wife is from Harlingen, TX, down in the Rio Grande Valley (about 25 miles from the border of Mexico).  We're down there all the time to visit and play cheap golf on nice courses.  Here is a car accident scenario that happens every day down there.

You get into a wreck and there is about a 50/50 chance he has no insurance, which means you and your insurance get to pay the bill.

Then the illegal heads to the Valley Baptist hospital to have his mild wounds taken care of free of charge in the emergency room.  

And if an amberlamps chaser lawyer is in the parking lot to ask what happened, that same illegal might be suing you for following too close.

So here is this guy.  Hard worker, mostly honest, doing no one any harm.  But he just cost you and your insurance company thousands of dollars.  He just cost the hospital, the doctors, and all of us who pay for health insurance thousands of dollars.  Then he wasted the time of a judge, the court clerks, and some legal rep from your insurance company time and money.  

So sure, this guy didn't commit a "crime", but breaking the law of living illegally in our country costs all of us money, and tons of it.  

I have a friend that works on our warehouse.  The IRS said he owed them around $25,000, which is more than he makes in a year.  Through a lot of research, it was figured out that his SS# had been sold from somewhere he used to work to 5 different illegals that were now working and earning money on his number in 5 different states.  Cumulatively they owed $25,000 in taxes...all put on his number.  My boss here happens to have been a lawyer for 30 years here in SA and was able to give our employee thousands of dollars of free legal help.  Javy was lucky...what if our boss wasn't that kind of guy?  He's just be screwed, and probably in jail.

I have another friend that is a medical malpractice attorney.  His firm used to do tons of work down in Laredo on the border.  They finally had to stop working there because of the violence.  The reason they were there in the first place was because doctors there are constantly fending off suits from the formerly-illegal parents that came here to give birth to their child on US soil.  Then there are lawyers down there coaching these people into medical lawsuits of all kinds.  Sure, that goes on all over the country.  But do we really need to bear the financial burden of scum-bag Americans and scum-bag Mexicans?

Living where I do, I see all sides of it.   I see the hard working, honest, helpful Mexicans.  I see the criminal Mexicans.  But no matter which version they are, honest or criminal, they are here illegally and cost us a shit load of money no matter how you look at it....whether by direct criminal activity, or by the simple act of living life.  Either way, we pick up the tab.

You would think Obama's $1.4 trillion budget would have included a big shiny wall.  

[wesfau2]

This thread is absolutely ridiculous.  It's been turned into exactly what the democrats want.  A full on war on all the issues but the basic one that caused the law to be written in the first place.

The problem is simple, and it doesn't have shit to do with people's thoughts on the hard working "livin' on the cheap" illegal immigrants.  It has to do with the drug war that's now spreading to the streets of Tuscon, Phoenix and other American cities.  US Citizens are in danger while this goes on.  It's an absolute crisis.

The governor of Arizona has sent FIVE letters asking for assistance from Obama.  To be fair, she sent letters to Bush.  In the last year and a half the violence has escalated to a point that has become to much for local and state law enforcement. 

Directly due to the lack of response from the federal government, Arizona has acted.  If it's unconsititutional, it'll get struck down, and they'll be in the same spot.  So what's next after that to take care of the immediate concern of the killing in the streets.

I've asked this question several times in this thread and in typical Democrat fashion, it gets ignored to focus on the racism and civil rights aspect.  All complaints with absolutly ZERO idea on why, by his own admission, Obama and the federal government have failed the people of Arizona.

Pathetic. 

The Governor has the state's law enforcement resources at her disposal. She can do as she sees fit...until such actions run afoul of the Constitution.

Chop, no one is saying that there isn't a problem.  How to tackle it will be the big question, naturally. I submit that immigration and drug law reform can serve to relieve the underlying problem.

There is no quick fix short of martial law, however.

[jadennis]

The real solution to the problem can be resolved by answering one question:  Why are they coming here?

Answer that, and fix it, and the problem will fix itself.

They're coming here because America is better than Mexico.  I know that sounds elitist or condescending to Mexico, but honestly, that's the answer.  I'm not even saying what about America is better.  But the reason they come is because ______________ is better in American than in Mexico.  Every illegal has something to put in that blank.

I'm not sure how you "fix" that problem.  I guess Obama is on his way.  About 20 years of this leadership and we'll probably look a lot like Mexico and they won't be so eager to come here    (that's mostly a joke....but only mostly, not completely).

[AuburnChopper 3.0]

The real solution to the problem can be resolved by answering one question:  Why are they coming here?

Answer that, and fix it, and the problem will fix itself.

So why hasn't it be done, AWK?  Also, why is it SO unreasonable to want to secure the border and curb this violence in the most pointed way possible when Amercian citizens are in the crossfire?

This isn't so much a long term issue, as it is a current crisis situation.  It's happening RIGHT NOW.

[GH2001]

You would think Obama's $1.4 trillion budget would have included a big shiny wall.  

That wouldnt fit in the blueprint JA. See the big picture==> http://www.spp.gov/  AKA the North American Union.

[AuburnChopper 3.0]

Chop, no one is saying that there isn't a problem.  How to tackle it will be the big question, naturally. I submit that immigration and drug law reform can serve to relieve the underlying problem.

Wes, with all due respect.  You've suggested law reform.  You've talked about immigration reform.  You've talked about trailer trash.  All these things, and you haven't once mentioned a sense of urgency about the current situation.  Only your idealogical responses about the immigration debate as a whole.  It's not what I've asked, or pointed out in this thread.   Also, I offer that you're not the current president, and the actions to this point consist of absolutely zero.  In fact, the only response at all is a statement calling the law misguided.  

People are dying.  It's a matter of the upmost urgency and this President is failing to recognize that.  

When people are hitting the streets and riots are occuring, I'd expect to hear, see and know more about what the federal government is going to do about what is clearly ITS responsibility.  

The state has deferred to the federal level more than FIVE times in written letters to the president, as well as in person.

There is NO excuse for this absolute failure.  NOW, it's being allowed to happen, because there might actually be a political benefit to the democratic base, and THAT can NOT be ignored as part of this.  Don't let yourself be narrow minded enough to NOT believe that democrats know they took a huge hit this past six months over healthcare.  To every five educated, and frustrated conservative, republican or frustrated democrat, there's 500 uneducated voters out there that believe nothing more than they'll simply be allowed to stay here, or they'll be getting a check in the mail at some point for some reason.  It's all that matters.

This may very well, because of a FAILURE!!!....be the actual savior of the democratic party in November.  

[wesfau2]

I rolled my eyes at the "trying to make the US over as a 3rd world country".

But, I also think you're idea of getting the ones that are here to work hard and earn an honest living to just sign up to be tax paying citizens is unrealistic too.

Most of them, even honest, hard working ones, don't want to be citizens.  They aren't here illegally simply because the US quota for accepting immigrants is too low.  They don't want to be documented.  They don't want to vote, pay taxes, etc.  Most of them want to fly under the radar, make their money, send some of it home, and do their thing without a trace.

That is by far the biggest threat to America...and mostly because it's so subtle and seemingly harmless (after all, they are just hard working people trying to make it through life, how much of a threat can that be?).   As we briefly touched on before, it costs us an enormous amount of money.  We would make back ten-fold the cost of building a high tech wall within 5 years.  Not to the national budget's bottom line, but to the bank accounts of Americans.  

My wife is from Harlingen, TX, down in the Rio Grande Valley (about 25 miles from the border of Mexico).  We're down there all the time to visit and play cheap golf on nice courses.  Here is a car accident scenario that happens every day down there.

You get into a wreck and there is about a 50/50 chance he has no insurance, which means you and your insurance get to pay the bill.

Then the illegal heads to the Valley Baptist hospital to have his mild wounds taken care of free of charge in the emergency room.  

And if an amberlamps chaser lawyer is in the parking lot to ask what happened, that same illegal might be suing you for following too close.

So here is this guy.  Hard worker, mostly honest, doing no one any harm.  But he just cost you and your insurance company thousands of dollars.  He just cost the hospital, the doctors, and all of us who pay for health insurance thousands of dollars.  Then he wasted the time of a judge, the court clerks, and some legal rep from your insurance company time and money.  

So sure, this guy didn't commit a "crime", but breaking the law of living illegally in our country costs all of us money, and tons of it.  

I have a friend that works on our warehouse.  The IRS said he owed them around $25,000, which is more than he makes in a year.  Through a lot of research, it was figured out that his SS# had been sold from somewhere he used to work to 5 different illegals that were now working and earning money on his number in 5 different states.  Cumulatively they owed $25,000 in taxes...all put on his number.  My boss here happens to have been a lawyer for 30 years here in SA and was able to give our employee thousands of dollars of free legal help.  Javy was lucky...what if our boss wasn't that kind of guy?  He's just be screwed, and probably in jail.

I have another friend that is a medical malpractice attorney.  His firm used to do tons of work down in Laredo on the border.  They finally had to stop working there because of the violence.  The reason they were there in the first place was because doctors there are constantly fending off suits from the formerly-illegal parents that came here to give birth to their child on US soil.  Then there are lawyers down there coaching these people into medical lawsuits of all kinds.  Sure, that goes on all over the country.  But do we really need to bear the financial burden of scum-bag Americans and scum-bag Mexicans?

Living where I do, I see all sides of it.   I see the hard working, honest, helpful Mexicans.  I see the criminal Mexicans.  But no matter which version they are, honest or criminal, they are here illegally and cost us a shit load of money no matter how you look at it....whether by direct criminal activity, or by the simple act of living life.  Either way, we pick up the tab.

You would think Obama's $1.4 trillion budget would have included a big shiny wall.  

That's a lot of irrefutable anecdotal evidence.

I would submit that a reasonable person would seek legal status if they endeavored to live a life in the states free of worry from deportation upon the slightest infraction.

Perhaps rather than focusing on citizenship we ought to be focusing our efforts to document these folks under an expanded work-visa program.

I'm just throwing out ideas because the "fuck them 3rd world denizens and their poverty" attitude isn't working...clearly.

[jadennis]

Chop, I know that the current drug related situation is bad, but I think you may be overstating it's portion of the problem a little.  Aren't the vast majority of those being killed here and in Mexico actually part of the cartel?  I don't recall seeing major US cities dealing with general riots and murders in the streets.  I could be completely wrong, I just haven't seen it too much.

That isn't to say your point isn't valid, I'm just saying I still think that illegals and immigration control in the big picture is still the main problem, and is a much longer and cumulative problem.  

I posted this earlier, but read it again if you didn't the first time.  Nearly everything in the article below is a long term issue, not really related to the "today" drug issues.  The stats in the article, to me at least, are far more alarming than any cross fire, drug dealer fighting that is going on (I don't mean it's not a big deal, I just mean by comparison of the magnitude and numbers).

Illegal immigrants cause many problems for The United States. Sometimes referred to as Illegal Aliens, these people have entered the United States via illegal methods. The FBI  recently
 issued a set of statistics regarding crimes committed by illegal immigrants in the United States. The numbers are alarming.

In Los Angeles, over 95% of arrest warrants issued for the crime of murder are for illegal aliens. At least 83% of arrest warrants for murder in Phoenix are for illegal aliens. The number climbs to 86% for Albuquerque. The most wanted lists for each of these cities is comprised of at least 75% illegal aliens.

The problem of prison overcrowding in California has been in the media many times over the past few months. Governor Schwarzenegger has attempted to gain relief from the overcrowding problem by shipping inmates to facilities in other states. Nearly 25% of the California prison population is comprised of illegal aliens. In Arizona, illegal aliens make up over 40% of the prison population and in New Mexico, the number is nearly 50%.

Illegal aliens account for nearly 30% of prison populations nationwide. This includes both state and federal prisons. The cost to house these illegal aliens is more than $1.6 billion dollars each year.

Statistics from 2005 indicate that over 75% of automobile thefts that occurred in Arizona, Nevada, California, Texas, and New Mexico were either stolen by illegal aliens or used to transport illegal aliens.  Almost half of the drivers stopped in California for traffic violations have no driver's license, insurance, or registration.  92% of those are illegal aliens. In Arizona, 63% of those stopped have no license, registration or insurance and 97% of those people are illegal aliens. New Mexico's percentages are 66% stopped with no license, insurance and registration and 98% of those are illegal aliens.

[AuburnChopper 3.0]

I would submit that a reasonable person would seek legal status if they endeavored to live a life in the states free of worry from deportation upon the slightest infraction.

They could do that now!   They keep fucking it up themselves by fucking with the system.  It's the fault of the illegal immigrant, not me, you or the average Arizonian.  

Perhaps rather than focusing on citizenship we ought to be focusing our efforts to document these folks under an expanded work-visa program.

No problem with this once the border is secure and everyone is documented appropriately.  Until the border is secure, it's a waste of time and money.

I'm just throwing out ideas because the "fuck them 3rd world denizens and their poverty" attitude isn't working...clearly.

Yeah, I guess when there's killing and rioting in the streets by these "3rd world denizens", Americans start to get a little frustrated.  

[AuburnChopper 3.0]

Chop, I know that the current drug related situation is bad, but I think you may be overstating it's portion of the problem a little.  Aren't the vast majority of those being killed here and in Mexico actually part of the cartel?  I don't recall seeing major US cities dealing with general riots and murders in the streets.  I could be completely wrong, I just haven't seen it too much.

That isn't to say your point isn't valid, I'm just saying I still think that illegals and immigration control in the big picture is still the main problem, and is a much longer and cumulative problem.  

I posted this earlier, but read it again if you didn't the first time.  Nearly everything in the article below is a long term issue, not really related to the "today" drug issues.  The stats in the article, to me at least, are far more alarming than any cross fire, drug dealer fighting that is going on (I don't mean it's not a big deal, I just mean by comparison of the magnitude and numbers).

Illegal immigrants cause many problems for The United States. Sometimes referred to as Illegal Aliens, these people have entered the United States via illegal methods. The FBI  recently
 issued a set of statistics regarding crimes committed by illegal immigrants in the United States. The numbers are alarming.

In Los Angeles, over 95% of arrest warrants issued for the crime of murder are for illegal aliens. At least 83% of arrest warrants for murder in Phoenix are for illegal aliens. The number climbs to 86% for Albuquerque. The most wanted lists for each of these cities is comprised of at least 75% illegal aliens.

The problem of prison overcrowding in California has been in the media many times over the past few months. Governor Schwarzenegger has attempted to gain relief from the overcrowding problem by shipping inmates to facilities in other states. Nearly 25% of the California prison population is comprised of illegal aliens. In Arizona, illegal aliens make up over 40% of the prison population and in New Mexico, the number is nearly 50%.

Illegal aliens account for nearly 30% of prison populations nationwide. This includes both state and federal prisons. The cost to house these illegal aliens is more than $1.6 billion dollars each year.

Statistics from 2005 indicate that over 75% of automobile thefts that occurred in Arizona, Nevada, California, Texas, and New Mexico were either stolen by illegal aliens or used to transport illegal aliens.  Almost half of the drivers stopped in California for traffic violations have no driver's license, insurance, or registration.  92% of those are illegal aliens. In Arizona, 63% of those stopped have no license, registration or insurance and 97% of those people are illegal aliens. New Mexico's percentages are 66% stopped with no license, insurance and registration and 98% of those are illegal aliens.

The point I'm making stands I believe.  I saw your post and saw it for the good points it made.  Agreed.

However, the problem is, is that there are drive bys, murders and intentional traffic accidents happening in Phoenix and other Arizona cities.  While you may also be correct that these drug wars are happening between cartels, the fact remains that it is in FACT spreading to US Soil, and because the border is not secure, Americans are in immediate danger.  The kind of danger that six months to a year of debate won't fix.

I find it interesting that I'm one of the few that sees the situation for the crisis it is.  

Just my opinion.

[wesfau2]

They could do that now!   They keep fucking it up themselves by fucking with the system.  It's the fault of the illegal immigrant, not me, you or the average Arizonian.  

The problem is the illogically low quota number. There is a finite number of spots available every year and when they're taken, that's it. So, why not increase the quota number in order to document the immigrants properly?

No problem with this once the border is secure and everyone is documented appropriately.  Until the border is secure, it's a waste of time and money.

I don't think you'll see a line of demarcation between "secure border" and logical immigration policy, so why not work on both in tandem?

I'm just throwing out ideas because the "fuck them 3rd world denizens and their poverty" attitude isn't working...clearly.


Yeah, I guess when there's killing and rioting in the streets by these "3rd world denizens", Americans start to get a little frustrated.  

I guess it seems to me that you're exaggerating the rioting and killing in the streets.

[jadennis]

That's a lot of irrefutable anecdotal evidence.

I would submit that a reasonable person would seek legal status if they endeavored to live a life in the states free of worry from deportation upon the slightest infraction.

Perhaps rather than focusing on citizenship we ought to be focusing our efforts to document these folks under an expanded work-visa program.

I'm just throwing out ideas because the "phuk them 3rd world denizens and their poverty" attitude isn't working...clearly.

I know, the stories I just threw in because they were relevant to the discussion, not so much as proof of "see, this is what really goes on".

I guess we have no way of knowing....but I suspect there are far fewer "reasonable" people than you suspect.  

The main problem with that is that as of now, there is no fear of deportation really.  It may be in the back of their mind, but it's so relatively rare that they probably don't give it much thought, and hence would see no reason to jump at the opportunity to sign up.

In 2008 there were only 350,000 people deported out of anywhere from 12 to 20 million.  That's anywhere from less than 3% to around 1.75%.  I think your idea would have a much better chance if current illegals faced at least a 25% chance of being sent home.  

Equate it to any other crime.  If there was only a 3% chance you get caught robbing a bank, there wouldn't be any banks still standing.  If there was a 2% chance of being caught stealing a car, I'd be driving an Audi S8 right now.  Currently, I just don't think the threat of deportation is much of a deterrent.  

[AuburnChopper 3.0]

The problem is the illogically low quota number. There is a finite number of spots available every year and when they're taken, that's it. So, why not increase the quota number in order to document the immigrants properly?

I'm sorry, Wes, but we can't afford the people that are here now. We can't identify a huge portion of the ones already here.  How about we secure the border, get more Americans (this means ALL documented able bodied working people) back to work, and then identify how many more we can afford when it's appropriate.  I'm not saying I disagree with what you want, I'm just saying you're suggesting it at the worst possible time in our history.

I don't think you'll see a line of demarcation between "secure border" and logical immigration policy, so why not work on both in tandem?

Because if the border is not secure, you'll never have a handle on the numbers and facts necessary to intelligently work on the policies.  We could start by the President instituting the immigration laws that already exist.  That would be a good place to start.

I guess it seems to me that you're exaggerating the rioting and killing in the streets.

Belive what you want, but if you don't think there is killing going on in Arizona, then you're just not paying attention.  Even if it WAS just ONE rancher being murdered because of a drug war that's getting completely out of hand, and the state had deferred to the federal government to do something about an increasing threat, and it had been ignored again and again, it would be a crisis situation.

Can you imagine for just a second, the absolute meltdown if George W. had ignored this problem on the border and the increased violence???  

[jadennis]

The problem is the illogically low quota number. There is a finite number of spots available every year and when they're taken, that's it. So, why not increase the quota number in order to document the immigrants properly?

After giving this a little thought, I don't think i would like the quota increased.  I like the idea of a "slow bleed" into society.  For most immigrants, it takes considerable time to assimilate to the culture.  It takes time to learn the language, get work, establish credit, rent an apartment, but a car, have kids, etc.  

I don't like the idea of a huge influx every year of people that are no longer expected to assimilate to American culture.   They aren't expected to have to speak English in order function here.  I think one reason people used to immigrate here and become "American" was because they were forced to do so.  By not doing it, they isolated themselves and stymied their growth.

Also, by slowly adding immigrants which typically come in towards the bottom of the economic chain, it gives time for those who came before them to move up and out of the bottom, towards the middle.  If we let in too many at one time, that bottom group will swell, in which case the rest of us will have to bear even more burden.  Not to mention, it would make moving up more difficult for those coming in.

And lastly, I feel that the immigrants that go the correct rout are typically going to be more interested in working hard, moving up, and taking advantage of the opportunity America provides for them.  Those who are not interested in the legal rout are probably more interested in the services American can provide for them, not the opportunity it can provide.

I think the smaller quota weeds out a lot of the leaches.  (well, could weed them out if we actually put a stop to illegal immigration).

[Snaggletiger]

I have two little illegal Mexican girls (not sure of the exact age but they swore they were both "diecinueve")  They live in the garage out back and fix me hot tamales any time I want them.

I'm not giving them back.

[Token]

I have two little illegal Mexican girls (not sure of the exact age but they swore they were both "diecinueve")  They live in the garage out back and fix me hot tamales any time I want them.

I'm not giving them back.

My first impulse would be to free all the slaves, and send them to Mexico,—to their own native land. But a moment’s reflection would convince me that whatever of high hope (as I think there is) there may be in this, in the long run, its sudden execution is impossible.

[jadennis]

My first impulse would be to free all the slaves, and send them to Mexico,—to their own native land. But a moment’s reflection would convince me that whatever of high hope (as I think there is) there may be in this, in the long run, its sudden execution is impossible.

Lincoln?