Misguided? Really??? Seriously???????

[AuburnChopper 3.0]

I have no problem with racial profiling.  If they are here illegally and we are trying to round them up and ship them back, it only makes sense to check the Mexican looking people to find illegal Mexicans.

If we had a Murder fhere in BHam and we know it was committed by a white guy, I have no problem when the cops set up a road block and check out all the whit guys.  I seriously doubt they would catch a white murderer by making sure they stopped just as many black people while looking for the white guy.

If you are here legally and have nothing to hide, show your ID and move on.

This.  I guess what makes the racism argument that much more asinine, is the latinos and mexicans calling racism, refusing to help solve a problem that effects them so adversely as well.  If I wanted the heat off my people, I'd be asking what papers do I need and what do I need to do to get through this crisis so that we could move on with life.   No, it's just another plot by the man to bring down my people though...automatic knee jerk bullshit.

Ba...I knew I shouldn't have jumped in the political forum..haha... 

[wesfau2]

It?  Are we seriously calling for legalization of everything now, or are we under the fantasy-land impression that these drug cartels only smuggle fruit, sugar cane, frozen pizzas and occasionaly Marijuana (aka that-safer-than-alcohol-drug)?
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/apr/22/mexican-drug-cartel-loses-4-leaders-to-dea/

No and No.  Forgive me for trying to bring some levity. 

Disclaimer - I still support legalization of marijuana.

If you are here legally and have nothing to hide, show your ID and move on.

I abhor this "nothing to hide, so no problem" attitude.  It doesn't matter if I have anything to hide or not.  That is not the standard to apply.  This is not directed at you solely, Mark, but that attitude seems to always come from the comfortable class of folk  that enjoy all of the built in benefits of their birth (read: white males).

[AWK]

Yeah. Here ya go.


This kid may be legal, but are his parents? If so, don't you think they would appreciate the "PIGS" keeping society safer than if there were no "PIGS"? I wonder if the "PIGS" were nicer back in old Mexico?

[Illegal immigrants are invaders and spies in a foreign land. What should we do with spies?

And I didn't see where the law gave the officers the right to pull someone over just for looking illegal. It sounds like it made it OK to question someone if you needed to. Many states do not allow the officers to even ask for papers, even for rape or murder. Maybe this will help get rid of the rapist or murderer before they can commit the act in our country.

[AuburnChopper 3.0]

I abhor this "nothing to hide, so no problem" attitude.  It doesn't matter if I have anything to hide or not.  That is not the standard to apply.  This is not directed at you solely, Mark, but that attitude seems to always come from the comfortable class of folk  that enjoy all of the built in benefits of their birth (read: white males).

What would be your answer to the immediate issue of violence along the border in Arizona, Wes?   I can understand the unconsitutional issues at hand here.  I do however have issues with those that propose what's wrong with what Arizona's doing, while not addressing the immediate danger at hand, and why the state felt compelled to its decision.

Anything?  Or, do we just wait for the political responses after November, say after another couple dozen people are killed?  I'm not saying you're wrong with your thoughts.  They're based on facts and law.  I do want to know what the federal government can, and would do to take care of this problem that is turning Arizona into a national debate for all the wrong reasons.  My belief is that the Obama adminstration, as well as a majority of democrats would rather see nothing done until they've maximized the embarrassment and turmoil caused against the republican party over what's seen as just another racial divide and immigration road-block, as opposed to stopping violence on the streets of an American state.  My impression is that the average Arizonian would just like to see the violence stopped, and this legislation as a tool to help in that fight.

Educate me on the action at hand.  Bush administration was berated for non-action after Katrina by all the same minorities and democrats.  Is this lesser of a crisis because it's fewer people for now?  Or do we wait until there's an all out race war in Arizona?  At that point, how will it STILL be spun as a republican failure?

[AUTailgatingRules]

I abhor this "nothing to hide, so no problem" attitude.  It doesn't matter if I have anything to hide or not.  That is not the standard to apply.  This is not directed at you solely, Mark, but that attitude seems to always come from the comfortable class of folk  that enjoy all of the built in benefits of their birth (read: white males).
[/quote]

Well you see, since my "built in benefits" REQUIRE me to pay a larger than average share of their benefits, I get to have this attitude if I prefer.  When they start paying their fair share they can bitch more about being treated fairly.  

Oh and by the way, they are here illegally.  By some estimates as many as 20,000,000 of them.  That is a whopping 6% of the entire US population.  In 2008 there were 50 million hispanics in the US.  That means that 40% of all hispanics are here illegally.  If I can profile a certain criminal class and catch 4 criminals for every 10 people I "pull" over, I say it is well worth it.

Imagine if you had a "profile" for sex offenders that was so on cue that you would catch 4 of them for every 10 people you checked, would you not be for "profiling" sex offenders?

[GarMan]

I abhor this "nothing to hide, so no problem" attitude.  It doesn't matter if I have anything to hide or not.  That is not the standard to apply.  This is not directed at you solely, Mark, but that attitude seems to always come from the comfortable class of folk  that enjoy all of the built in benefits of their birth (read: white males).

The assumption here is that only Hispanics and other foreign looking individuals will be inconvenienced by this thing.  Besides the fact that the officer will likely be Hispanic as well, how else do we find illegal aliens?  (Oh...  Sorry...  My bad...  We're supposed to call them "undocumented workers" now.) 

By the way, isn't it the same thing when a person of a particular ethnicity commits a crime, and his description is shared on those Amber Alerts, APBs and other facilities?  What really makes this any different?

[jadennis]

Rather than treating the symptom, let's treat the cause:

Legalize it.

Not sure where I stand on legalizing marijuana, mostly because I've never given it too much thought really.  My initial thought is that I don't like it.  Mostly because the vast majority of pot smokers I've known (and know) are pretty much useless to society.  Not because of their intelligence or their ability, but because that "culture" breeds laziness.  Of course, this isn't true for everyone, and there are lots of pot smoking brilliant doctors and lawyers, etc.  I'm talking of my experience and your typical pot-smoker, not the exceptions, of where there are many.

Anyway, as for how it relates to this immigration debate...I don't see it as a big connection, or at least to me, not much of an impact in the big picture.  The drug dealing illegal immigrant is not the biggest problem I don't think.  It's crime in general and tax payer expense in general that comes with allowing people to just stroll into our country uncontrolled and outside of the proper channels.  Our prison systems are already 30+% occupied by illegal aliens (over 40% in some SW states).  Then throw in the burden it puts on the health care and legal systems (as well as insurance companies).

In the end, there are a million reasons why illegal immigrants are bad for the United States.  It's not that Mexicans are bad, or that Cubans are bad, anymore than a Canadian or a German is bad.  It has nothing to do with where you're from.  It's not going through the proper channels to become an American that is the problem.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/305516/statistics_crimes_commited_by_illegal.html

Illegal immigrants cause many problems for The United States. Sometimes referred to as Illegal Aliens, these people have entered the United States via illegal methods. The FBI  recently
 issued a set of statistics regarding crimes committed by illegal immigrants in the United States. The numbers are alarming.

In Los Angeles, over 95% of arrest warrants issued for the crime of murder are for illegal aliens. At least 83% of arrest warrants for murder in Phoenix are for illegal aliens. The number climbs to 86% for Albuquerque. The most wanted lists for each of these cities is comprised of at least 75% illegal aliens.

The problem of prison overcrowding in California has been in the media many times over the past few months. Governor Schwarzenegger has attempted to gain relief from the overcrowding problem by shipping inmates to facilities in other states. Nearly 25% of the California prison population is comprised of illegal aliens. In Arizona, illegal aliens make up over 40% of the prison population and in New Mexico, the number is nearly 50%.

Illegal aliens account for nearly 30% of prison populations nationwide. This includes both state and federal prisons. The cost to house these illegal aliens is more than $1.6 billion dollars each year.

Statistics from 2005 indicate that over 75% of automobile thefts that occurred in Arizona, Nevada, California, Texas, and New Mexico were either stolen by illegal aliens or used to transport illegal aliens.  Almost half of the drivers stopped in California for traffic violations have no driver's license, insurance, or registration.  92% of those are illegal aliens.  In Arizona, 63% of those stopped have no license, registration or insurance and 97% of those people are illegal aliens. New Mexico's percentages are 66% stopped with no license, insurance and registration and 98% of those are illegal aliens.

[wesfau2]

Anyway, as for how it relates to this immigration debate...I don't see it as a big connection, or at least to me, not much of an impact in the big picture.  The drug dealing illegal immigrant is not the biggest problem I don't think.  It's crime in general and tax payer expense in general that comes with allowing people to just stroll into our country uncontrolled and outside of the proper channels.  Our prison systems are already 30+% occupied by illegal aliens (over 40% in some SW states).  Then throw in the burden it puts on the health care and legal systems (as well as insurance companies).

In the end, there are a million reasons why illegal immigrants are bad for the United States.  It's not that Mexicans are bad, or that Cubans are bad, anymore than a Canadian or a German is bad.  It has nothing to do with where you're from.  It's not going through the proper channels to become an American that is the problem.

I agree, actually.

So...what about lowering the barriers to entry?  Not every Mexican that wants to come to the US is a criminal.

Mark - I sympathize a bit, since I enjoy those same benefits.  My comments about the "nothin to hide" comment are a carryover from the debates over the Patriot Act. I can't tell you how many times I heard "screw the 4th amendment, if you ain't got nothin to hide then you don't have nothin to worry about". It was a poor position then and it remains a poor position on this issue.

[AUTailgatingRules]

So...what about lowering the barriers to entry?  Not every Mexican that wants to come to the US is a criminal.

While this may be true, EVERY Mexican that comes to the US illegally IS A CRIMINAL and thus should be treated as one.

Not every "rich taxpayer" that does not wnat to pay taxes is a criminal, however EVERY one that evades said taxes is a criminal and should be treated as such.  I could go on and on the "not every" examples all day.  Bottom line is a criminal is a criminal and should be treated as one.  Throw them in jail or deprt them.  I prefer deportation as it is not my responsibility to pay for their incarceration.

[wesfau2]

While this may be true, EVERY Mexican that comes to the US illegally IS A CRIMINAL and thus should be treated as one.

Not every "rich taxpayer" that does not wnat to pay taxes is a criminal, however EVERY one that evades said taxes is a criminal and should be treated as such.  I could go on and on the "not every" examples all day.  Bottom line is a criminal is a criminal and should be treated as one.  Throw them in jail or deprt them.  I prefer deportation as it is not my responsibility to pay for their incarceration.

I agree. If they are here illegally, then they are criminals.  Though, the difference I believe is that if there were a legal option, the majority would take it.

I support relaxing the immigration quota and offering an amnesty process for anyone willing to submit to the proper process.  Anyone unwilling to go through the proper channels should be prosecuted to the fullest extent.

[AuburnChopper 3.0]

So...what about lowering the barriers to entry?

How about making it tougher?  

or...

Can we let them live with you, and then maybe let you pay 100% for their well being also?  I'm already paying too much towards the shortfall in a horrible economy and paying for the ones that are already here legally, let alone illegally.

[Townhallsavoy]

I agree. If they are here illegally, then they are criminals.  Though, the difference I believe is that if there were a legal option, the majority would take it.

I support relaxing the immigration quota and offering an amnesty process for anyone willing to submit to the proper process.  Anyone unwilling to go through the proper channels should be prosecuted to the fullest extent.

This.

We are NEVER going to deport 12 million illegal immigrants.  If we tried, there would be mass rioting from both the immigrants and the sympathizers.  

Also, how the hell are you going to know where to deport them to?  The majority might be Mexican, but there are a lot of immigrants here illegally from Central America and South America.  For example, I teach three Colombian students, four students from El Salvador, and one from Argentina.  You going to round them up and ship them back to Mexico?  

The best solution is to beef up the border with high tech security and some kind of wall.  Then grant amnesty to the illegals here who are attempting to work/raise a family.  Give more resources to INS so that they can locate and deport those who do not wish to take advantage of the amnesty.  

[AuburnChopper 3.0]

I've also noticed how this has STILL maintained a typical any time of the year immigration debate.  

That's not what this was about.  It was about Arizona and it trying to wrangle the violence happening in their state because of an unsecure border.  Nobody has ANY executable option as to how to stop the violence and secure the border in the short term.   Only thing here is a bunch of shit about how racist Arizona legislation is, and how dare they when the federal government has done so much already...errr wait...Oh yeah, they haven't taken any steps to help at this point.

The best solution is to beef up the border with high tech security and some kind of wall.  Then grant amnesty to the illegals here who are attempting to work/raise a family.  Give more resources to INS so that they can locate and deport those who do not wish to take advantage of the amnesty. 

I've seen NOTHING from a democrat suggesting this.  This is the first time I've seen a suggestion on handling the issues immediately at hand.

....I agree with this. 

[GarMan]

I agree. If they are here illegally, then they are criminals.  Though, the difference I believe is that if there were a legal option, the majority would take it.  

Fantasy-land again...  There is a legal option to get into this country.  Nothing more needs to be done.  If anything, we should get rid of the anchor-baby laws and make things even tougher.  

The best solution is to beef up the border with high tech security and some kind of wall.  Then grant amnesty to the illegals here who are attempting to work/raise a family.  Give more resources to INS so that they can locate and deport those who do not wish to take advantage of the amnesty.  

Amnesty?  Are you kidding???  We already tried that, and they keep coming.  They just figure that we'll do it again.  Enough is enough.  Let's get serious about this.  Let's get some real penalties out there, and let's assign some of the responsibility on their countries of origin.  

[Townhallsavoy]

Amnesty?  Are you kidding???  We already tried that, and they keep coming.  They just figure that we'll do it again.  Enough is enough.  Let's get serious about this.  Let's get some real penalties out there, and let's assign some of the responsibility on their countries of origin.  

Like what?  Place sanctions on Mexico?  Threated to hinder their booming economy? 

They kept coming because we didn't build The Great Wall of Mexico.  We could send two messages at once:

1.  Fuck Mexicans crossing the border.  They ain't welcome here no more. 
2.  Fuck China with their up and coming nonsense.  Not even their wall compares to something American made. 

[Token]

The state of Arizona is pissed because they have a serious illegal immigration problem.  They contact the Immigration and Customs Enforcement about getting the majority of their law enforcement trained and certified in the 287 G program.  The federal government tells them they have no problem with it, but the departments are going to have to send them to an extensive class and the department will have to cover all expenses.  The upper echelon in the Arizona governing body decides this is bullshit and they don't have to be certified in shit.  

I spend the last 32 hours in Alexandria, LA working for ICE and this is what I've been told of the situation.  

Here's a link to the 287 g program which would give the Arizona law enforcement officers the training they would need to handle their business.  http://www.ice.gov/partners/287g/Section287_g.htm

It should be noted that 7 different agencies in Arizona already have the training needed.  Hell, Alabama even has one or two agencies with trained 287 G officers......

[GarMan]

Like what?  Place sanctions on Mexico?  Threated to hinder their booming economy? 

Well, yes...  You'd be surprised how much Mexico has and how much they get from us in trade.  We could have them policing the border just as much as we should be now. 

[wesfau2]

Fantasy-land again...  There is a legal option to get into this country.  Nothing more needs to be done.  If anything, we should get rid of the anchor-baby laws and make things even tougher.  

Yes, Ron, I realize that there exist legal means for entering the country.  The demand is far outstripping the supply, however, and I think it's time to re-examine the immigration quota vis a vis Mexico/Central America to see if a higher threshold might be a workable solution.

Given the option, the vast majority of these immigrants would prefer to be here legally.  If they are, then they can be properly taxed and they can pay their fair share for the infrastructure and services they utilize.

[AWK]

Well, yes...  You'd be surprised how much Mexico has and how much they get from us in trade.  We could have them policing the border just as much as we should be now. 

Hahahaha, Yeah sure.  I'm sure that's right on top of their list...right above stopping the drug war.

[CCTAU]

They are illegal invaders and should be shot as soon as they step foot on US soil. Yes. All of them. It won't take long for them to understand that the invasion is over. If they are here illegally and commit a crime, immediate exportation. Since they will be shot when trying to come back, that will take care of the multiple re-entry issue. Mexico is not as forgiving as we are when illegals enter their country. Their jails and prisons are not nearly as nice as ours and their people could give a shit less as to how many and which Americans are in their government hotels.

As harsh as it seems, we need to be vigilant and a heartless about this to an extent. We are being invaded and all the libs can see are helpless victims, and more votes.

I am all about helping those in need. But we need to help our own before we can take in refugees that never leave from the south.

I am all for you sympathizers doing what was suggested before, take in these illegal and pay for them yourselves. Be their sponsors. If they commit a crime, be responsible for it. Put YOUR money where YOUR mouth is and leave the rest of us alone.

And if states like Arizona want to completely close their borders with force against illegal invaders, then they have that right. And that responsibility to their residents.

As for deportation and where they came from, 99% came here through Mexico. We just send them back to their last stop. After that, Mexico can deal with them since they did not stop them from coming into their country to begin with. This border crossing thing is beginning to look like the lottery. As soon as they get here, they win.

The world IS black and white sometimes. This is one of those times.