Misguided? Really??? Seriously???????

[jadennis]

Commerce clause.. It sucks, but that's how Congress has authority to pass something like the HC Bill.  They can create laws/or programs for anything affecting interstate commerce.  It's a very broad power.

Currently health care policies can't be sold across state lines.  That's why there is Blue Cross / Blue Shield of Alabama, BCBS Georgia, etc.   Telling an American citizen they MUST purchase something from the US government or face a fine or penalty sounds pretty unconstitutional to me.  And don't compare it to auto insurance, as the lib-idiots like to do.  

If you CHOOSE to take advantage of the OPTION of driving a car, there are rules that come with that.  You only HAVE to have auto insurance if you CHOOSE own an automobile.  The only way to avoid the mandate of paying for  health insurance is to be a dead person.  That doesn't sound like much of a choice, and definitely doesn't sound like freedom.

[AWK]

Currently health care policies can't be sold across state lines.  That's why there is Blue Cross / Blue Shield of Alabama, BCBS Georgia, etc.   Telling an American citizen they MUST purchase something from the US government or face a fine or penalty sounds pretty unconstitutional to me.  And don't compare it to auto insurance, as the lib-idiots like to do.  

If you CHOOSE to take advantage of the OPTION of driving a car, there are rules that come with that.  You only HAVE to have auto insurance if you CHOOSE own an automobile.  The only way to avoid the mandate of paying for  health insurance is to be a dead person.  That doesn't sound like much of a choice, and definitely doesn't sound like freedom.

Income Tax.

[GH2001]

 And don't compare it to auto insurance, as the lib-idiots like to do.  

If you CHOOSE to take advantage of the OPTION of driving a car, there are rules that come with that.  You only HAVE to have auto insurance if you CHOOSE own an automobile.  

And this is at the state level as well. Albeit too for a good reason.

[AuburnChopper 3.0]

No.  Kaos made a comment, I responded.  It had nothing to do you.

You called me a bleeding heart liberal because I made a reference to the statue of liberty...and you believe that European documented immigrants are different than illegals today.  I have to disagree.

Your assertion that a non documented "illegal" immigrant is NOT different than a "documented legal European immigrant" is interesting.  Not sure where you're coming from there.

Also, I called your response an example of "bleeding heart liberalism".  Not so much claiming you are one.  I don't know quite enough about your politics to accurately pin it on you.  Politics are personal, and I'm going to be fairly careful with how it's slung around.    

READ THIS CAREFULLY, BECAUSE IT IS IMPORTANT.  Most immigrants of that time were granted documents once they stepped off the boat. They had a system in place that worked.  Now a days, we could do the same, and choose not to.  That is our fatal flaw.

AWK.  This is very simple.  We simply can not, and could not afford this as a country today.  I'm willing to bet there's at least three times (or more) people in this country today, than there was during the days of Ellis Island and the boats you're referencing.

We choose not too (and not just republicans), because it would be simply irresponsible.    

The statue of liberty reference pertains to this very situation, whether you like it or not.  Just because it is counter to a belief you have or the way you think does not it make it "different this time."  Freedom is a two way street, you have to accept the good with the bad.  You can't have your cake and eat it too.

This is just flat out false.  It's how you read it.  I'm cool with that.  

However, at the same time you reference that, you throw out and disregard the Constitution, and every law ever made on immigration law, and the responsibility of US citizens to pay taxes.

Its an argumenent you're clinging to based on purely emotion, and that's all.

Now listen, one more time, I'll state that I have NO issue with immigration, and in time I'd hope that we continue to allow any and all (yes, the sick and poor etc...), but untill there is some relative control over what is NOT under control now, it would simply be irresponsible to allow the increases and lowered standards that most left leaning folks are suggesting.   The infrastructure isn't there.  The security isn't there.  The money isn't there.  I would be a catastrophe, even more than it already is today.

[GH2001]

Income Tax.

Which is technically "constitutional" now thanks to a certain 16th amendment.

BUT...

The definition of income, as described by the 16th Amendment, is defined by the Supreme Court as, “Income is profits and gains deriving from corporate activity,” i.e. not individuals’ labor.

The Constitution allows for two types of taxes. Direct and Apportioned taxes. Article 1, section 2 states, “direct taxes shall be apportioned among the several states.”

The income tax is a direct tax for which is not apportioned among the states, thus making it unconstitutional. Its also worth noting that the required number of states never properly ratified the 16th Amendment. But its never held up in court.

[AWK]

Not the same thing at all.

Actually, it is the exact same thing as his bolded comment.  Telling an American citizen they must pay for something or they get fined.

[GH2001]

Actually, it is the exact same thing as his bolded comment.  Telling an American citizen they must pay for something or they get fined.

See my post above - both unconstitutional.

[AuburnChopper 3.0]

Actually, it is the exact same thing as his bolded comment.  Telling an American citizen they must pay for something or they get fined.

Americans can choose whether or not to buy a service, just the same as they buy a house, car, food or any other goods.  We're not going to agree on this one.  I'm just going to leave it alone.

[Token]

Actually, it is the exact same thing as his bolded comment.  Telling an American citizen they must pay for something or they get fined.

What if the citizen doesn't work?  Do they still have to pay income taxes?  Serious question.

[jadennis]

As is usually the case, I would bet if we got off the tangents there wouldn't be a whole lot most of us disagree with.

Immigration is good.  No problem with it.  As of right now, we have laws of HOW you immigrate into this country.  The laws in place allow for around 900,000 to 1,000,000 a year this way, but we've seen years as high as 1.8 million as recently as 1991 and as low as 700k as recently as 2003..

To me, any one of any race from any economic background and any intelligence could be one of those 1,000,000 people:

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

AWK, you are kind of responding as if you think people that are against ILLEGAL immigration do not agree with what's written above.  That just couldn't be further from the truth.  I love those five lines you posted.  I love that we still take those who want to make a life here.

BUT BUT BUT, I hate that we don't do it by the laws that provide an avenue for such immigration.  

So what we have are two immigrants...the ones who take the legal path, and the ones that do not.  And that is where my division on the subject comes from.  I DO want legal immigrants to come find their dream here.  I DO NOT, no matter how loving, respectful, generous, and church-going they may be, want ILLEGAL immigrants here.   It simply is not worth it.   As noted in several previous posts, it casts a HUGE burden on nearly every aspect of American culture...jails, insurance companies, health care, crime, etc...all things we pay for on their behalf.  I'm fine with paying for those things on behalf of the 1,000,000 legal immigrants.

And while you may not agree with the manner in which Kaos said it, but the overall point is pretty right on.  If you take the crime and expense put on our society by ILLEGAL immigrants verses that which comes with the LEGAL immigrant...well, I don't think it would be much of a contest, and I don't think any honest person on here needs to see official numbers to agree.

So, let's not shoot and kill them on the spot, but lets seal up the border.   That doesn't mean no one is allowed to immigrate into America....it just means they have to do it legally.   I'm just baffled as to why this is even a discussion.  Doesn't the last sentence I just wrote seem so obvious and agreeable by all sides?

[GH2001]

What if the citizen doesn't work?  Do they still have to pay income taxes?  Serious question.

I think they have to FILE.   46% dont pay taxes right now.

[jadennis]

What if the citizen doesn't work?  Do they still have to pay income taxes?  Serious question.

What's ironic is that most people don't pay income tax, but that won't mean they don't have to pay for health care.

AWK, I would also argue that there is some difference in paying a tax and purchasing a service.  And as GH stated, they are probably both unconstitutional, but there is no going back on taxes now, and that's exactly what the Democrats are planning on with the health care bill.  Not constitutional?  Passed by reconciliation?  Who cares, it's official now and there is no going back.  That's what they're counting on.

[AWK]

What if the citizen doesn't work?  Do they still have to pay income taxes?  Serious question.

You have to file.  You won't pay anything if you don't work.

[jadennis]

I think they have to FILE.   46% dont pay taxes right now.

But not even all workers have to file do they?  If you're a 1099 worker and make less than $600 or something, you don't have to file.  

[AWK]

But not even all workers have to file do they?  If you're a 1099 worker and make less than $600 or something, you don't have to file.  

If you don't have any income you don't have to file, but you should.  Let me just say, that it is in your best interests to file even if you make $0.

[CCTAU]

So, let's not shoot and kill them on the spot, but lets seal up the border.   That doesn't mean no one is allowed to immigrate into America....it just means they have to do it legally.   I'm just baffled as to why this is even a discussion.  Doesn't the last sentence I just wrote seem so obvious and agreeable by all sides?

You only have the shoot a couple. The rest will figure it out quickly.......


BTW. How do you seal up a border without consequences for crossing it? Do you have someone standing there saying "Please stop?"

It really comes down to whether or not you have a junkyard dog with teeth or without. We are like the homeowner who has no dog but puts up a beware of dog sign. As soon as thieves find out you really have no dog, are you really protected?

If we are found entering Mexico illegally, how are we treated? Maybe we set up special hell holes for illegal immigrants and treat them the same as they would have been treated in a Mexican prison.

But amnesty and acceptance damn sure isn't the answer. We have to find something that creates a barrier. And in doing that, it may have to include not so nice things.

[Saniflush]

BTW. How do you seal up a border without consequences for crossing it? Do you have someone standing there saying "Please stop?"

Actually I think we are going to use the phrase that is used in Great Britain.....


"STOP!  or I'll say stop again."

[GarMan]

Once again let me ask a logical "common sense" question:

How would one go about finding ILLEGAL Mexican immigrants if you don't "profile" the Mexican looking people?  I'm betting you could ask millions of white people and find not one illegal Mexican immigrant. 

It's just like when we get pulled over by the police on Friday or Saturday night.  It doesn't seem to be that hard for an officer to ask, "Have you been drinking tonight?".  Why would it be anymore difficult or even unconstitutional for an officer to ask everyone if they're in the country legally?  I just don't get it... 

[GarMan]

Which, by the way, the quote that was ignored by everyone...

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

is from the inscription on the Statue of Liberty...but phuk that, lets shoot 'em all. 

Yep...  Statue of Liberty...  Not the US Constitution, Declaration of Independence or...

[Townhallsavoy]

That's the difference. There are many more just like me that are afraid to say anything because of the self-righteous little pricks like you. But the fact remains that our country is being invaded by people who could care less what happens to it 20 -30 years down the road. Because by then, we will all be no better than Mexico, and the invaders would have won. I'm glad you are pissed. Maybe when your position on the subject causes you considerable discomfort, you will look back on this and think we should have taken a tougher stance. Until then, by all means, adopt an illegal family for your own so my tax dollars do not have to support them.

Yeah, I know there are plenty more like you (reference Cowboy the Bama Fan on Youtube).  Why be afraid of speaking out because of me?  Because I'm vindictive and staunch in my opinion?  Because I base my opinion on realistic goals and with the consideration of people?  Because I have an ounce of compassion? 

Wake the hell up, man.  Mexicans have been bum rushing the border since the 60s.  It's just now finally getting to be numbers that make you notice them.  We're fine.  We have economic problems because the government doesn't know what it's doing.  NOT because Mexicans here are working hard and trying to better their lives for their kids. 

And assuming they don't care about this country shows your ignorance.  They care.  They'd only like to go back to Mexico if it had the quality of life that America offers.  You hate them for that?  Why? 

Also, what fucking discomfort have they directly caused you?  What have they done that murderous white people, drug dealing black people, and lazy ass American citizens haven't already caused you?  Should we shoot them too?  I mean, hell, just a few and it'll fix the problems, right?  Shoot those negroes a few times - they'll quit wearing those saggy jeans and listening to their hippity hop. 

READ THIS CAREFULLY, BECAUSE IT IS IMPORTANT.  Most immigrants of that time were granted documents once they stepped off the boat. They had a system in place that worked.  Now a days, we could do the same, and choose not to.  That is our fatal flaw.

This.  This times ten million.  Anger directed towards Mexicans (or other hispanics) is irrelevant.  It serves no purpose besides perpetrating a well-known and old perception that white Americans are intolerable of other people. 

The anger should be directed towards our federal government and the business owners that have allowed this to happen.  You want hispanics out of the country?  Quit supporting business and politicians that make America seem like such a paradise if they simply hop the border and hitch hike to Alabaster, Alabama. 

Let me give you an example from my personal experience:

Teacher allows her kids to talk for fifteen minutes at the start of each class.  Then she yells and screams for them to get quiet and serious about her lesson.  They never do.  She talks over them.  Asks why they aren't listening.  Promises punishment in the future.  They don't care because it's all baseless threats.  One day, she decides that after fifteen minutes, she's going to have a few of the talking students expelled.  A few young lives tarnished and possibly ruined. 

Did she take the proper action?  Or was it her fault they're clowning around in the first place?