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Are You Serious?

jadennis

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Re: Are You Serious?
« Reply #80 on: March 02, 2010, 12:28:34 PM »
At least you're dignifying this with an actual response instead of "You're an idiot, cause you're in your late 20's." You will get an intelligible response. I'm sure VV will speak to you with the dignity your response deserved. The other two will likely continue to get Toby.

However, I still disagree.

The emboldened exert is the only real tangible example you used, so that is what I will reference. How have we as 27 year olds not experienced Affirmative Action? I won't speak for him, but I know it to be a bullpoop policy just as much as you do. I too see where it served its purpose at one point in time, but believe that time has passed. I have been through the college admissions process. I have been through the hiring process several times. I have been at two separate Fortune 500 companies since graduating college half a decade ago (had to throw that out there, since Kaos maintains I bag groceries and live in my mother's basement).

You can argue this to your 19 year old children, but excuse us for taking offense to the comparison. We are adults with adult jobs who associate with other adults with adult jobs, many older than yourselves.

I'll let VV speak to his own achievements, but I know that graduating law school and starting your own business are things you don't just stumble into with a completely naive ignorance.

You kind of help my point.  You have experienced it.  You know it to be a major fail.  You and I were born into what was already known to be a flawed philosophy.  But back when the idea was presented, who knows what you or I may have thought.  We like the idea of equal rights, we like the idea of "fair", etc.  So it may have sounded like a "good for you government...way to stand up for minorities, we proudly support this initiative" idea.  

But I have a feeling that people that had lived life a bit longer, had experienced other failed government initiatives probably protested the idea from it's introduction.  They didn't have to stand back and experience the fail of AA.  They probably called it from the get-go, having wisdom gained from previous experience.

As for him saying VV is "an idiot because he's in his late 20's" is not really I think that whole thing went.  I think it started out much different and got to that point because VV came across a little bit as having definitively conquered the discussion because of the studies and a "my study facts beat the hell out of your opinion" tone.

Then GarMan turned to the "you dumb ass kid" tone.

I'm not saying exactly who started their "tone" first, I'm just saying there is a reason he ended up at that point.

Consider this.  There is a reason that almost all kids think their parents "just don't get it".  It's because kids typically think they know everything.  My parents pointed it out to me, their parents pointed it out to them, and I'll point it out to my kids.  So consider that there is a chance that VV is coming across like this.  There's a reason the phrase "he knows just enough to be dangerous" exists.  It's for educated young men who haven't experienced enough in life to give that knowledge direction.


Quote
I've been down my share of
Country roads, boulevards, and interstates
I kinda know my way around
A little bout a lot of things
I know what the cards say
Sometimes the hard way
It looks so easy

My curiosity always gets me in a ditch
What really happens if
You turn that knob
Or flip that switch
Something I shouldn't do
Why you already knew
Thats all been taught to me

I know just enough to get in trouble
And thats just enough to understand
That the more I know
The more I'm sure
Someday it's gonna do me in
Yeah when my time comes
And I'm dead and gone
Let em put it on my tombstone
He knew just enough to get in trouble
But not enough to leave it alone
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"To me Auburn is not in Auburn, Alabama. Auburn is the people who care about Auburn, the people who love Auburn. Wherever they are, that’s Auburn, Auburn is in your heart. You play for it."

- Reggie Torbor

jadennis

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Re: Are You Serious?
« Reply #81 on: March 02, 2010, 12:36:49 PM »
VV, I guess I'm referencing the links you did to a study that noted how many "positive" and "negative" things each station had to say about Obama, etc.  For someone to watch a broadcast and state how many negative or positive things were just reported about Obama is not valid to me.  That's the main one I had an issue with.  I could watch the same broadcasts and have a completely different opinion of what had been negative or positive.  

Anyway, I have work to do today, unfortunately (and fortunately I guess, since some people have no work at all), so I'm jumping out of this one for now....

Skip to 52 seconds.

« Last Edit: March 02, 2010, 12:37:42 PM by jadennis »
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"To me Auburn is not in Auburn, Alabama. Auburn is the people who care about Auburn, the people who love Auburn. Wherever they are, that’s Auburn, Auburn is in your heart. You play for it."

- Reggie Torbor

Vandy Vol

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Re: Are You Serious?
« Reply #82 on: March 02, 2010, 12:43:18 PM »
As for him saying VV is "an idiot because he's in his late 20's" is not really I think that whole thing went.  I think it started out much different and got to that point because VV came across a little bit as having definitively conquered the discussion because of the studies and a "my study facts beat the hell out of your opinion" tone.

My initial post regarding the whole Fox News debate was simply three links, followed by text from the links.  I didn't insert anything of my own, tone or otherwise, until later.  In fact, I wasn't even the one who initially brought up studies.  Someone else mentioned that studies did not show Fox to have a Republican slant, so I posted studies and their results for review.

Nonetheless, I still fail to see how statistics wouldn't "beat the hell out of" an opinion in this type of discussion.  Again, we're not talking about affirmative action or any other political policy.  We're not talking about "fair," "equal," "nice," or any other subjective opinions.  We're talking about whether a news station has a Republican slant.  We can quantify the number of Republican guests, the number of points of views, the number of Republican viewers, etc.  When a station statistically has more Republican journalists, more opinions given by journalists, more Republican guests, more Republican viewers, and less points of view presented, then it's hard for me to agree with someone who says that Fox News doesn't have a Republican slant.  Studies don't solve anything in the arena of opinionated debate, but when it comes to objective questions like this, studies can supply answers.

VV, I guess I'm referencing the links you did to a study that noted how many "positive" and "negative" things each station had to say about Obama, etc.  For someone to watch a broadcast and state how many negative or positive things were just reported about Obama is not valid to me.  That's the main one I had an issue with.  I could watch the same broadcasts and have a completely different opinion of what had been negative or positive.

I can agree with that.  The study focused only on stories that had a noticeably positive or negative tone; they classified the rest as neutral or left them uncoded.  Nonetheless, I do agree that the concepts of positive and negative can be very subjective in nature.  Of course, as mentioned above and in previous posts, there is still a multitude of support from the objective, quantifiable data in those studies.
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"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." - Dean Martin

Kaos

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Re: Are You Serious?
« Reply #83 on: March 02, 2010, 02:37:54 PM »
Wow.  I didn't realize you guys had almost, like, FIVE whole years of "real world" experience.  That makes all the difference in the world.  You are so, so seasoned.  I'll have to reconsider all the asinine opinions I've seen expressed by you guys and filter them through your wizened lens. 

Pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffftttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt..............

I've got shoelaces that have been working longer than you have. 

Come back in 15 years when you've had kids and gone through a couple of economic cycles.  Then we'll see what you have to say. 
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GarMan

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Re: Are You Serious?
« Reply #84 on: March 02, 2010, 05:22:25 PM »
How silly...
Exactly!

I know deep down in my heart that Fox News has no Republican slant in the slightest, and that's all that matters. 
I hate to point out the obvious at this stage, but I never really argued that...
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My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them.  - Winston Churchill

Eating and sleeping are the only activities that should be allowed to interrupt a man's enjoyment of his cigar.  - Mark Twain

Nothing says "Obey Me" like a bloody head on a fence post!  - Stewie Griffin

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."  - Ayn Rand

Vandy Vol

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Re: Are You Serious?
« Reply #85 on: March 02, 2010, 05:40:17 PM »
That's an interesting way to look at your previous posts.  I mean, all this time you've been adamantly attempting to make us believe that these particular studies are biased and/or are outright lies, and that Democrats typically use studies to swindle people into believing their liberal lies...yet you agree with the results of the studies which conclude that Fox News has a Republican slant?  Seems like a waste of time to vehemently advocate that these studies are faulty, biased or untruthful when you ultimately agree with the results.
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GarMan

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Re: Are You Serious?
« Reply #86 on: March 02, 2010, 05:51:18 PM »
At least you're dignifying this with an actual response instead of "You're an idiot, cause you're in your late 20's." You will get an intelligible response. I'm sure VV will speak to you with the dignity your response deserved. 
 
You have a point there.  I assumed that he was intelligent enough to understand my perspective without me having to provide "an actual response" that illustrates what I've come to accept as common sense.  Again, my bad...   

I'll let VV speak to his own achievements, but I know that graduating law school and starting your own business are things you don't just stumble into with a completely naive ignorance. 

I'm sure that he's an absolute genius in his own right.  I understand that gay porn can be quite lucrative.  Good for him!
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My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them.  - Winston Churchill

Eating and sleeping are the only activities that should be allowed to interrupt a man's enjoyment of his cigar.  - Mark Twain

Nothing says "Obey Me" like a bloody head on a fence post!  - Stewie Griffin

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."  - Ayn Rand

jadennis

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Re: Are You Serious?
« Reply #87 on: March 02, 2010, 06:13:05 PM »

I'll let VV speak to his own achievements, but I know that graduating law school and starting your own business are things you don't just stumble into with a completely naive ignorance.

I didn't really think about it before, but those things are not really related.  You can be smart, a very hard worker, and dedicated, and still be naive and ignorant.  Happens all the time.  Look at half the people that go to UC-Berkley or somewhere like that.

For the record, I'm saying VV is entirely naive and or ignorant...no more than myself probably.  I'm just pointing to the fact that achievement of almost any kind doesn't really preclude you from being either naive or ignorant.  Again, I don't view VV in those lights, even if I disagree with some things.  I'm sure I'm as much of each of those things in some regards as he is.
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"To me Auburn is not in Auburn, Alabama. Auburn is the people who care about Auburn, the people who love Auburn. Wherever they are, that’s Auburn, Auburn is in your heart. You play for it."

- Reggie Torbor

GarMan

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Re: Are You Serious?
« Reply #88 on: March 02, 2010, 06:27:35 PM »
That's an interesting way to look at your previous posts.  I mean, all this time you've been adamantly attempting to make us believe that these particular studies are biased and/or are outright lies, and that Democrats typically use studies to swindle people into believing their liberal lies...yet you agree with the results of the studies which conclude that Fox News has a Republican slant?  Seems like a waste of time to vehemently advocate that these studies are faulty, biased or untruthful when you ultimately agree with the results. 

Why must you always take this to ridiculous extremes?  In your world, I have to either completely accept these "studies" or completely refute them.  There's no middle ground with you.  I've never suggested that they're "outright lies" as you put it, but the "studies" are still bullscat at best.  Using opinions and surveys as "stats" for something that is subjective is extremely unreliable, especially when you cannot establish a mutually agreeable point of reference (aka "The Center").  Of course, you're going to argue that it's about Republicans versus Democrats, but today's Republican isn't anything like the Republican of yesterday.  Bush-41 was a NeoCon...  Bush-43 was essentially a RINO, if not a borderline Socialist with his prescription drug plan, "head start" program and bailout v.1.  There is no frame of reference that is fixed unless you're willing to talk ideologies, but even there, you'll find a degree of evolution...
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My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them.  - Winston Churchill

Eating and sleeping are the only activities that should be allowed to interrupt a man's enjoyment of his cigar.  - Mark Twain

Nothing says "Obey Me" like a bloody head on a fence post!  - Stewie Griffin

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."  - Ayn Rand

Vandy Vol

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Re: Are You Serious?
« Reply #89 on: March 02, 2010, 09:06:46 PM »
Extremes?  I post three studies showing that Fox News has a Republican slant.  You take it upon yourself to go on a warpath by railing on studies in general as being biased and, in many instances, fabricated by Democrats as a means to brainwash the public.  It's not my fault that you went to the extreme of denouncing all studies only to later admit that you don't disagree with the studies cited.

Calling bullshit, by the way, is no different than calling it a lie.  Afterall, what you're doing by calling bullshit is saying that the statement made is not true.  Something that is not true = lie.

Using opinions and surveys as "stats" for something that is subjective is extremely unreliable, especially when you cannot establish a mutually agreeable point of reference (aka "The Center").  Of course, you're going to argue that it's about Republicans versus Democrats, but today's Republican isn't anything like the Republican of yesterday.  Bush-41 was a NeoCon...  Bush-43 was essentially a RINO, if not a borderline Socialist with his prescription drug plan, "head start" program and bailout v.1.  There is no frame of reference that is fixed unless you're willing to talk ideologies, but even there, you'll find a degree of evolution...

I've already addressed this, but I'll do it again for old time's sake.

These polls were not taken in the 1800's.  Additionally, no one from the 1800's was alive to take these polls.  Thus, yesterday's concept of being a Republican is irrelevant.  Furthermore, the polls did not base the subjects' political allegiances upon questions asking if they were liberal, conservative, libertarian, communist, socialist, etc.  Nor did they try to classify people by asking what they think about X issue and then identifying them as having A, B or C political ideology.  They asked them to identify themselves as Republican or Democrat.  Regardless of what your "actual" political views classify you as in regard to the vast array of evolved political ideologies, most people identify themselves as "Democrat" or "Republican."  In fact, we have this whole two party system in which people actually register to vote as a Republican or Democrat in primaries.

My point is that you can be a fucking way out in left field nut job liberal politician and be registered as a Republican, assuming the party accepts you.  It doesn't matter what you subjectively consider to be your political ideology; you're objectively registered and identified as a Republican (not you, but rather a hypothetical politician or voter).  Now, in all likelihood, you're not going to join a party or vote for a party if their views are completely different from yours.  Regardless, there will be a variation from Republican to Republican in regard to political ideologies.

Despite all of this, my point still stands that you can quantify the number of self proposed Republican viewers.  You can quantify the number of Republican politicians who appear as guests.  You can quantify the number of points of view presented.  You can quantify the number of journalists and editors who are self proposed Republicans.  You can quantify the number of times a journalist gives his or her opinion during the course of stories.  That is what the studies quantified, and those are not opinions.  All of this is one effective way to determine whether a station has a Republican slant.  This doesn't mean that the station is loyal to some vague, subjective notion of conservative ideologies from the 1800's or from today; it merely means that they have a particular slant toward the Republican party.  The Republican party, despite how it may have changed or how many actual political ideologies are present within the party, is an identifiable entity, not a vague political ideology.  Thus, it is completely within the realm of possibilities to objectively determine a station's slant toward a political party based upon the collected data mentioned above.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2010, 09:09:59 PM by Vandy Vol »
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"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." - Dean Martin

Kaos

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Re: Are You Serious?
« Reply #90 on: March 02, 2010, 09:40:13 PM »
Good grief. I think I'd rather read greasy's drivel. At least he's reasonably concise. 
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GarMan

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Re: Are You Serious?
« Reply #91 on: March 03, 2010, 01:32:31 AM »
Extremes?  I post three studies showing that Fox News has a Republican slant.  You take it upon yourself to go on a warpath by railing on studies in general as being biased and, in many instances, fabricated by Democrats as a means to brainwash the public.  It's not my fault that you went to the extreme of denouncing all studies only to later admit that you don't disagree with the studies cited. 

You take belligerence to a whole new level.  In your world, I can only agree or disagree with these "studies".  There's no room for me to challenge or disagree with the extent of the outcomes.  There's no reasoning with you... 

Calling bullpoop, by the way, is no different than calling it a lie.  Afterall, what you're doing by calling bullpoop is saying that the statement made is not true.  Something that is not true = lie. 

Try exaggeration...  embellishment...  amplification...  baloney...  hyperbole...  mischaracterization... 

I've already addressed this, but I'll do it again for old time's sake. 

Me too...  :taunt:
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My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them.  - Winston Churchill

Eating and sleeping are the only activities that should be allowed to interrupt a man's enjoyment of his cigar.  - Mark Twain

Nothing says "Obey Me" like a bloody head on a fence post!  - Stewie Griffin

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."  - Ayn Rand

Vandy Vol

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Re: Are You Serious?
« Reply #92 on: March 03, 2010, 01:46:29 AM »
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AWK

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Re: Are You Serious?
« Reply #93 on: March 03, 2010, 06:04:45 PM »
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Redskins cornerback DeAngelo Hall said, "Guys don't mind hitting Michael Vick in the open field, but when you see Cam, you have to think about how you're going to tackle him. He's like a big tight end coming at you."

GarMan

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Re: Are You Serious?
« Reply #94 on: March 03, 2010, 06:06:11 PM »
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My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them.  - Winston Churchill

Eating and sleeping are the only activities that should be allowed to interrupt a man's enjoyment of his cigar.  - Mark Twain

Nothing says "Obey Me" like a bloody head on a fence post!  - Stewie Griffin

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."  - Ayn Rand

Lurking Tiger

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Re: Are You Serious?
« Reply #95 on: March 04, 2010, 04:55:11 PM »
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Vandy Vol

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Re: Are You Serious?
« Reply #96 on: March 04, 2010, 05:03:01 PM »
Coincidence ?

I think not.  The Mayans knew about Sarah Palin's idiocy long before we were duped by her hotness.
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AWK

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Re: Are You Serious?
« Reply #97 on: March 08, 2010, 04:59:53 PM »
« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 05:01:12 PM by AWK »
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Redskins cornerback DeAngelo Hall said, "Guys don't mind hitting Michael Vick in the open field, but when you see Cam, you have to think about how you're going to tackle him. He's like a big tight end coming at you."

GH2001

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Re: Are You Serious?
« Reply #98 on: March 19, 2010, 02:08:02 PM »
Chad, VV -

Been out of this one a while. Actually busy with the business traveling the last 2 weeks. Anyway...my points were just THIS:

1. Never said Foxnews wasnt biased some to the right. I just said they are doing nothing worse than the others have been doing for the last 50 years. Dan Rather, Walter Cronkite, Tom Brokenjaw, Katie Couric, Keith Olbermann, Chris Matthews, Rachel Maddow, Peter Jennings (RIP), Bryant Gumbel, and you could go on with liberal on air personalities. Foxnews - I can honestly peg a handful as hard right, registered GOPs - Sean Hannity, Glen Beck, Megyn Kelly, Shepherd Smith, Brit Hume. Don't even say Karl Rove - he is a contributor. Dick Morris (former Clintonite) is also a contributor. JAD tried to make an idiot from another board we used to be on understand what a "contributor" was. Foxnews also has regulars from the left side as well - Geraldo Rivera, Greta Van Susteren (yes, she is a liberal), Juan Williams, Bob Beckel, Mark Lamont Hill......Besides Lou Dobbs, who did CNN ever have not on the left? All Im saying is at best, they are a wash. I know Foxnews leans right. The other 4-5 lean left. Done. No crime on Foxnews' part.

2. I agree with JAD on the experiencing life part. VV - my views were much like yours at that age. I am mid 30's now and I can't believe how much my perception in life changed from 22 to 34. At 22, 25, 27 - whatever - everything looks good in a theory, or on paper. Not saying you have or havent actually been hit in the face with things - but the likelihood of it is less. That is the very reason many of my views changed. I saw how policy affected me. I saw how economics affected me and mostly how elected officials affected my wallet. And unfortunately in our society, thats what it takes most of the time - to actually get hit in the wallet and live paycheck to paycheck for several years by no fault of your own to sometimes "wake up".

3.  I will never defend GWB so dont even bring him into an argument. I cant stand him and NO - I dont miss him. I just dislike Obama more. So shove it up your ass AWK. And good job trying to be a mind reader. I dislike Obama because I THINK he's a commie who is taking the country down the toliet. I thought the same of GWB.
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GarMan

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Re: Are You Serious?
« Reply #99 on: March 19, 2010, 03:32:27 PM »
3.  I will never defend GWB so dont even bring him into an argument. I cant stand him and NO - I dont miss him. I just dislike Obama more. So shove it up your ass AWK. And good job trying to be a mind reader. I dislike Obama because I THINK he's a commie who is taking the country down the toliet. I thought the same of GWB.
Now come on...  GWB wasn't "a commie".  He was just America's First Socialist President.  On the other hand, Barry is an outright Stalinist.  We're PHUCKED if we don't get off our asses. 
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My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them.  - Winston Churchill

Eating and sleeping are the only activities that should be allowed to interrupt a man's enjoyment of his cigar.  - Mark Twain

Nothing says "Obey Me" like a bloody head on a fence post!  - Stewie Griffin

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."  - Ayn Rand