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Birmingham officially sucks more...

GH2001

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Re: Birmingham officially sucks more...
« Reply #140 on: February 17, 2010, 01:21:09 PM »
I'm going to have to point you to my responses to Tarheel.  In summation, the 18-29 year old voters only made up 13% of Obama's votes; the other 40% came from older generations.  Yes, our generation played a part, but we were hardly the reason for Obama's election.

Yes, quality of life has greatly decreased, which is why the average life expectancy in Colonial America was under 25 years in the Virginia colony, and in New England about 40% of children failed to reach adulthood.  Meanwhile, nowadays, the average lifespan is 74 years.  Quality of life has clearly taken a sharp downturn over the years.

During the crash of 1893, unemployment was around 20%. There were no food stamps, no welfare and no medical assistance. You were on your own, left with the kindness of strangers.  Modern American industry started around 1830.  Over these past 180 years, we have had one difficulty followed by good times, then another rough patch followed by another smooth patch, so on and so on.  Just as with most things, various measurements of our success are going to be cyclical.

As far as crime rates, that has been decreasing, at least in regard to violent crimes.  The FBI only kept up with data since 1960, so there's no real way to compare the crime rates of the 1800s to now.  You also have to consider that technology has allowed us to catch and convict more criminals, whereas in the 1800s many crimes went unpunished due to an inability to identify the culprit.



Progressivism in the United States came about during the 1880s to 1920s.  There was even a Progressive Party in 1912 that was founded by Theodore Roosevelt.  Ever heard of the roaring 20s?  We successfully transitioned from a wartime economy to a peacetime economy, much of this due to the progressive leaders at the time.



Yes, the Great Depression occurred shortly after in 1929, but even economic scholars can't agree on the cause.  Those who believe in a large role for the state in the economy believe it was mostly a failure of the free markets and those who believe in free markets believe it was mostly a failure of government that compounded the problem.

Regardless, much of our success and failure is always going to be cyclical.

I never said they were the majority of voters. They simply filled in the gap and made the difference in getting that ideology in the White House. How many 18-29 voters turned out in 2008 as compared to 2000 and 2004? BTW - The 18-29 demographic voted for Obama by a margin of 63-33.

Quality of Life not equal to length of life. Quality meaning more asthetically pleasing and functional. You may not have been here as long, but it was "better". Length of life has gone up for other reasons - again, nothing to do with liberal policies.

LMAO @ the Roaring 20's economics being caused by 'liberal policies'. While there was social change in the 20's (such as dance crazes, prohibition), the economic boom is typical of post war industrial production much like the Civil War and WWII.

Transportation is almost certainly the reason for MOST of the boom of the 20's. Between Charles Lindberg and Henry Ford, transportation was revolutionized in the 20's. There was also the electric grid which employed a ton of people, mass production of goods, mass communication and the oil industry (an increased demand from the auto industry booming). Don't confuse social changes and economic changes when speaking of the 20's. 2 different things and totally unrelated.

Warren G Harding even ran on an economic platform of 'normalcy' - and supply-side economics. When Harding took office in 1921, the national economy was in the depths of a 'depression' with an unemployment rate of 20% and runaway inflation. Harding proposed to reduce the national debt, reduce taxes, protect farming interests, and cut back on immigration. Harding didn't live to see it, but most of his agenda was passed by the Congress. These policies led to the "boom" of the Coolidge years.

As for the GD, buying on margin (i.e. - overextending credit in today's world)  and purposeful speculating by a few greedy idiots were the causes. Its not a debate. Overextending credit to people who cannot handle is a progressive policy. See 2008 Housing Crisis/Subprime Lending Crisis. This is exactly what happened towards the end of the roaring 20's thus creating a bubble. Speculators do what they do, a panic sets in, people start selling short. And guess what happens when everyone starts selling at once, with most of their money tied up in margin? Bad things man...bad things......pop goes the Bubble.  :bc:
« Last Edit: February 17, 2010, 01:29:55 PM by GH2001 »
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wesfau2

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Re: Birmingham officially sucks more...
« Reply #141 on: February 17, 2010, 01:27:34 PM »


Serious question, no flame: Have you ever had a real job? Have you ever had to make your own way or support others on what you were able to earn? Not condemning if you haven't. But your answer could go to perception and mindset.

Really?  Are you so self-absorbed that you miss the information posted by others?

Remember the fiasco where a car ran through Chad's house? The house he had just purchased.  With money from his real job.
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You can keep a wooden stake in your trunk
On the off-chance that the fairy tales ain't bunk
And Imma keep a bottle of that funk
To get motel parking lot, balcony crunk.

AWK

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Re: Birmingham officially sucks more...
« Reply #142 on: February 17, 2010, 01:31:56 PM »
Really?  Are you so self-absorbed that you miss the information posted by others?

Remember the fiasco where a car ran through Chad's house? The house he had just purchased.  With money from his real job.
I got this one.  Yes.
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jadennis

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Re: Birmingham officially sucks more...
« Reply #143 on: February 17, 2010, 01:32:38 PM »
This assumes that all of the new, young voters were coming out to vote for Obama.  Many of those were likely coming out to oppose Obama.  Now, I'm not saying that the majority of them was.  However, regardless of how many new voters there were in support of Obama, we were still outvoted.  Our generation only made up 13% of the vote for Obama; that was my point.  New voters or not, the older generations showed that they consistently have the majority of the voting power and play the largest part in deciding who is elected, as is evidenced by their votes making up 40% of Obama's votes.

All I know is this...



The backlash theory is probably correct.  Additionally, I'd like to see polls that used the terms Democrat and Republican.  It may sound trivial, but people tend to identify themselves with a party easier than they do "liberal" or "conservative."  Identifying yourself with a party identifies yourself with people in that party, many of whom have both liberal and conservative ideas.  Saying you are liberal, however, gives the impression that you have only liberal ideas; this may be why people were hesitant to label themselves as such, but would still label themselves as a Democrat.
[/quote]

Here are the same numbers but with those who called themselves a Democrat.

Of whites, only 33% of the voters consider themselves a Democrat, yet 54% of them voted for Obama.
Of African Americans, only 77% consider themselves a Democrat, yet 95% voted for Obama.
Of Hispanics, 53% consider themselves a Democrat, yet 76% of them voted for Obama.
Overall, 45% consider themselves a Democrat, yet 68% voted for Obama.

See, to me, this is actually less telling than the "liberal" numbers.  Obama is not merely a Democrat by any stretch.   There is a reason the "blue dog" democrats came to be.  It's because there is almost no semblance of the "moderate democrat" left in Democratic leadership.  Obama is liberal.  As liberal as they come.  

This is why it's so interesting to me that so many that do not consider themselves liberal (or even Democrat) voted for one of the most liberal Democrats to ever run for office.  And not just Obama, but the Democratic leadership in general.  How are they in leadership when so few American's actually seem to agree with them philosophically?

Which brings me back to the A and B I listed.  Those are the two things I can think of.  It reminds me of a few good lines in that movie The American President...

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"To me Auburn is not in Auburn, Alabama. Auburn is the people who care about Auburn, the people who love Auburn. Wherever they are, that’s Auburn, Auburn is in your heart. You play for it."

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jadennis

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Re: Birmingham officially sucks more...
« Reply #144 on: February 17, 2010, 01:36:16 PM »
I never said they were the majority of voters. They simply filled in the gap and made the difference in getting that ideology in the White House. How many 18-29 voters turned out in 2008 as compared to 2000 and 2004? BTW - The 18-29 demographic voted for Obama by a margin of 63-33.

Quality of Life not equal to length of life. Quality meaning more asthetically pleasing and functional. You may not have been here as long, but it was "better". Length of life has gone up for other reasons - again, nothing to do with liberal policies.

LMAO @ the Roaring 20's economics being caused by 'liberal policies'. While there was social change in the 20's (such as dance crazes, prohibition), the economic boom is typical of post war industrial production much like the Civil War and WWII.

Transportation is almost certainly the reason for MOST of the boom of the 20's. Between Charles Lindberg and Henry Ford, transportation was revolutionized in the 20's. There was also the electric grid which employed a ton of people, mass production of goods, mass communication and the oil industry (an increased demand from the auto industry booming). Don't confuse social changes and economic changes when speaking of the 20's. 2 different things and totally unrelated.

Warren G Harding even ran on an economic platform of 'normalcy' - and supply-side economics. When Harding took office in 1921, the national economy was in the depths of a 'depression' with an unemployment rate of 20% and runaway inflation. Harding proposed to reduce the national debt, reduce taxes, protect farming interests, and cut back on immigration. Harding didn't live to see it, but most of his agenda was passed by the Congress. These policies led to the "boom" of the Coolidge years.

As for the GD, buying on margin (i.e. - overextending credit in today's world)  and purposeful speculating by a few greedy idiots were the causes. Its not a debate. Overextending credit to people who cannot handle is a progressive policy. See 2008 Housing Crisis/Subprime Lending Crisis. This is exactly what happened towards the end of the roaring 20's thus creating a bubble. Speculators do what they do, a panic sets in, people start selling short. And guess what happens when everyone starts selling at once, with most of their money tied up in margin? Bad things man...bad things......pop goes the Bubble.  :bc:

You know it's the off season when Warren G Harding makes an appearance.

Good post GH.
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"To me Auburn is not in Auburn, Alabama. Auburn is the people who care about Auburn, the people who love Auburn. Wherever they are, that’s Auburn, Auburn is in your heart. You play for it."

- Reggie Torbor

AUChizad

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Re: Birmingham officially sucks more...
« Reply #145 on: February 17, 2010, 01:36:19 PM »
Really?  Are you so self-absorbed that you miss the information posted by others?

Remember the fiasco where a car ran through Chad's house? The house he had just purchased.  With money from his real job.
He also knows that that I work in software engineering.

I didn't even see this statement tucked away in the last post on the page.

Ridiculous.

Perhaps you should watch some of these shows.

They don't form my beliefs, but they do demonstrate them in a much more humorous and anecdotal way than I am able to on a message board as I waste away my work day at my real job.
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GH2001

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Re: Birmingham officially sucks more...
« Reply #146 on: February 17, 2010, 01:41:40 PM »
He also knows that that I work in software engineering.

I didn't even see this statement tucked away in the last post on the page.

Ridiculous.

Perhaps you should watch some of these shows.

They don't form my beliefs, but they do demonstrate them in a much more humorous and anecdotal way than I am able to on a message board as I waste away my work day at my real job.

Its all good Chad.  :bc:

Like JAD said, you know its the offseason when Warren G Harding makes an appearance in the same thread as indie music. I bet wreckingball had no idea this thread would get to level. LOL

Just remember - on the Football side of the board, I think most of us are on the same page.  :bar:
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Kaos

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Re: Birmingham officially sucks more...
« Reply #147 on: February 17, 2010, 01:46:23 PM »
Really?  Are you so self-absorbed that you miss the information posted by others?

Remember the fiasco where a car ran through Chad's house? The house he had just purchased.  With money from his real job.


I remember somebody hit a deer.  I don't remember anything about somebody crashing a house. 

But I don't read everything posted here. 

And let's be honest.  I get the names of my kids mixed up sometimes.   I don't really remember which anecdote applies to whom most of the time. 
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Kaos

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Re: Birmingham officially sucks more...
« Reply #148 on: February 17, 2010, 01:50:21 PM »
He also knows that that I work in software engineering.

They don't form my beliefs, but they do demonstrate them in a much more humorous and anecdotal way than I am able to on a message board as I waste away my work day at my real job.

I actually had forgotten that. 

Fucking whippersnappers, expecting me to remember shit all the time.
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wesfau2

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Re: Birmingham officially sucks more...
« Reply #149 on: February 17, 2010, 01:52:18 PM »

I remember somebody hit a deer.  I don't remember anything about somebody crashing a house. 

But I don't read everything posted here. 

And let's be honest.  I get the names of my kids mixed up sometimes.   I don't really remember which anecdote applies to whom most of the time. 

You even posted in the thread.  Not surprisingly, your post was a story only tangentially related to Chad's thread (see: narcissism).

http://www.tigersx.com/forum/index.php?topic=1948.msg23321#msg23321
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You can keep a wooden stake in your trunk
On the off-chance that the fairy tales ain't bunk
And Imma keep a bottle of that funk
To get motel parking lot, balcony crunk.

AUChizad

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Re: Birmingham officially sucks more...
« Reply #150 on: February 17, 2010, 02:03:39 PM »
You even posted in the thread.  Not surprisingly, your post was a story only tangentially related to Chad's thread (see: narcissism).

http://www.tigersx.com/forum/index.php?topic=1948.msg23321#msg23321
:pics:

Brian and his cheap-assed server maintenance...
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Kaos

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Re: Birmingham officially sucks more...
« Reply #151 on: February 17, 2010, 02:17:03 PM »
You even posted in the thread.  Not surprisingly, your post was a story only tangentially related to Chad's thread (see: narcissism).

http://www.tigersx.com/forum/index.php?topic=1948.msg23321#msg23321

You honestly expect me to remember some random thread from before Chizik was hired?  Sorry, but I really don't care that much. 
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Vandy Vol

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Re: Birmingham officially sucks more...
« Reply #152 on: February 17, 2010, 02:18:30 PM »
I never said they were the majority of voters. They simply filled in the gap and made the difference in getting that ideology in the White House.

You stated that "these people," meaning our generation of 18-29 year olds, are the ones who elected the current administration in D.C.  Untrue.  13% is not enough to get him elected.

How many 18-29 voters turned out in 2008 as compared to 2000 and 2004? BTW - The 18-29 demographic voted for Obama by a margin of 63-33.

It was actually 66-33.  Nonetheless, you're still assuming that all of the new voters voted for Obama.  It's very possible that many of those new voters made up that 33%.  Again, I'm not claiming that all or even a majority of the new voters opposed Obama; most of them probably did come out and vote to support him, but it's an assumption to state that the new voters all voted for Obama.

And, again, even if they did, only 13% of Obama's vote was made up of our generation (18-29).  New voters or not, we did not "elect these idiots in D.C.," as you stated.  We were a part of that vote, yes, but only 13% of it; the older generations were 40% of it.  We may have come out in record numbers, but yet again as I've already stated, we were outvoted as we often are.  If the older generations had as much sense as everyone claims, then Obama's 40% of votes wouldn't have come from them, and they could have changed the election and taken control away from us dumb whippersnappers.  But instead, they voted with us, adding 40% to his votes.

Quality of Life not equal to length of life. Quality meaning more asthetically pleasing and functional. You may not have been here as long, but it was "better". Length of life has gone up for other reasons - again, nothing to do with liberal policies.

Aesthetics is subjective, so there is no use in arguing that, but functional?  It's more functional to deliver messages by horse than by internet?  More functional to drive to Washington state than to fly?  Your broad statements had nothing to do with liberal or conservative policies; you simply stated that our country had a better quality of life during the 1800s - 1950s as opposed to the 1960s to now.  If you think our country is less functional than it was 200 years ago, then I'm not sure what else to say.

LMAO @ the Roaring 20's economics being caused by 'liberal policies'. While there was social change in the 20's (such as dance crazes, prohibition), the economic boom is typical of post war industrial production much like the Civil War and WWII.

Before, during, and immediately after the Civil War, the nation's economy was based around agricultural.  The Industrial Revolution had occurred in Europe decades before, and was now sweeping into America.  War does not automatically result in an economic boom upon its completion.  The Vietnam War was responsible for a heavy strain on the financial resources of the U.S. economy, as most wars do.  There was an imbalance in the industrial sector; factories which were manufacturing consumer goods had to shift their onus towards catering to the demands of the military.

Due to excessive military spending and diversion of funds overseas, the dollar weakened.  There was no equivalent amount of funds coming into the country.  The country cringed under the strain of household social spending and subsidies on one side and military expenditure on the other.  The government earned dissatisfaction from the general public as the interest rates rose and inflationary trends ballooned.  The affluent lifestyle of the 60s began to erode because of the economic paralysis.

Transportation is almost certainly the reason for MOST of the boom of the 20's. Between Charles Lindberg and Henry Ford, transportation was revolutionized in the 20's. There was also the electric grid which employed a ton of people, mass production of goods, mass communication and the oil industry (an increased demand from the auto industry booming). Don't confuse social changes and economic changes when speaking of the 20's. 2 different things and totally unrelated.

Certainly, but ignoring the political decisions that helped effectuate this change is also a mistake.  The Fordney-McCumber Act (1922) and the Hawley-Smoot Act (1930) created the highest-ever schedule of tariffs for foreign-made goods.  This was done in response to the modernization of America, which gave us the technology to trade with foreign countries.  Such trade opened up the international market and threatened the marketability of our domestic goods, as is evidenced today.  The very basic principal of progressivism is that it is a political movement that addresses ideas and issues stemming from the modernization of American society.  These tariffs were essentially a progressive attempt to address the recent modernization of American society within the recently developed international trade scene.

As for the GD, buying on margin (i.e. - overextending credit in today's world)  and purposeful speculating by a few greedy idiots were the causes. Its not a debate. Overextending credit to people who cannot handle is a progressive policy. See 2008 Housing Crisis/Subprime Lending Crisis. This is exactly what happened towards the end of the roaring 20's thus creating a bubble. Speculators do what they do, a panic sets in, people start selling short. And guess what happens when everyone starts selling at once, with most of their money tied up in margin? Bad things man...bad things......pop goes the Bubble.  :bc:

I agree that overextending credit was not a great idea.  I also agree that it was the major cause of the most recent economic crash.  To call it a progressive move, however, isn't quite correct.  Maybe our contemporary definition of "progressive" has become skewed, especially with the Obama administration, but historically in the United States political system progressivism is characterized as a need for efficiency in society by means of ridding waste and corruption.  As society changes, or modernizes, the manner in which we can satisfy this goal changes.  New obstacles arise, and new solutions are needed.  That's why the root word is "progress;"  things are dynamic, not static.

Cultural progressivism has often focused on equality and social reform.  Maybe that is what leads you to believe that progressivism would extend credit to everyone equally, despite their inability to manage the debt.  However, economic ideas within progressivism must be (and traditionally have been) separated from social ideas.  Giving money to those who will never be able to responsibly pay it back does not embody progressivism, as it promotes waste.  I would argue that capitalism, the free market, and greed are what led to creditors extending loans to those who wouldn't be able to pay.
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Vandy Vol

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Re: Birmingham officially sucks more...
« Reply #153 on: February 17, 2010, 02:25:36 PM »
All I know is this...



Key phrase: Would have looked like if the election were decided by 18-29 year olds.  As with all elections, everyone over the age of 18 is able to vote.  And as the demographics show, 18-29 year olds don't make up the majority of voters.  Nor did they make up the majority of votes for Obama in this election.

See, to me, this is actually less telling than the "liberal" numbers.  Obama is not merely a Democrat by any stretch.   There is a reason the "blue dog" democrats came to be.  It's because there is almost no semblance of the "moderate democrat" left in Democratic leadership.  Obama is liberal.  As liberal as they come.

People are more than happy to boil it down to Democrat vs. Republican.  That's why we have so many straight ticket voters.  He was a Democrat, so Democrats voted for him, and he wasn't Bush, so many disenfranchised Republicans probably voted for him too.  Which is why I think the backlash from Bush had a lot to do with it.
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Tarheel

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Re: Birmingham officially sucks more...
« Reply #154 on: February 17, 2010, 02:34:11 PM »
Sorry for the late reply Vandy Vol.  I keep getting interrupted with work stuff.  And this is written with the intent of being somewhat tongue-in-cheek.

I never put words in your mouth; I simply provided the numbers to disprove your point, which was:
...

Well, again, with respect Counselor, you are.

A. I did not write that "we should follow older generations." ("we" meaning "you" in a general sense, that is the younger generation).  "You" in a specific sense made that jump.

B. You write that "I act as if we elected a bunch of 20 year olds".  No, I don't.  I act as if we (and I use that term generally again, Counselor, because "I" did not vote for The ONE and I don't know who "you" voted for; "we" refers to a plurality of the electorate) elected a bunch of candy-ass, apologetic, socialists with communistic tendencies.

C. I did not complain that "you" (again, generally) voted for someone in an older generation who, as it turns out, is a mistake; I complained because it seems to me with my limited resource of information that "most" of "your" (again, in a general sense, not "you" in particular) generation (and, by "generation", Counselor, I'm referring to the "under 30" age group that voted in the 2008 Presidential election) voted for The ONE as opposed to the "under 30" age group that voted for McCain or someone else.

...
My numbers show that young voters (18-29) were only 13% of the voting population that voted for Obama.  53% of the voting population voted for Obama.  Thus, 40% of the voting population who voted for Obama were not of our generation.  40% > 13%, so yes, we were outvoted; the larger population of the older generations often leads us to being outvoted in numbers.  We played a part, yes.  And if you want to argue that 13% was a large part, then yes, we played a large part.  However, the 40% of votes from older generations played an even larger part.
...

Seriously very interesting.  I'd like to see your source for this statistical information (since some of your statistics are not listed in my source as far as I can determine) for two reasons (and, if I missed it in an earlier post I do apologize, Counselor):

A. For verification, in which case I would consider conceding your point (e.g. {or i.e.?} that more "older" people voted for The ONE than did people under 30) if I'm satisfied that my "old" brain can interpolate and cipher the same figures as your "young" one.

B. For future use, I was looking for a good source of statistical data on the 2008 election some time ago for my own edification and all that I could find was the article that I already sourced.

...
Kenya is a representative democratic republic.  That doesn't really fit with the adjectives "progressive" (speaking of the theoretical/traditional definition of progressivism) and "socialist."

...

I was referring to the Keynesian Economics that the current administration worships; not Kenya the country, but I think you know this as I saw that someone else already corrected you.

...
I only wanted to lay in the sun and listen to my indie music.  :moon:

And I only want to sit in my lawn chair, drink a Jack and coke, smoke my cigar, and listen to my talk radio stations.
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jadennis

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Re: Birmingham officially sucks more...
« Reply #155 on: February 17, 2010, 02:36:33 PM »
Quote
I would argue that capitalism, the free market, and greed are what led to creditors extending loans to those who wouldn't be able to pay.

Greed doesn't help, but the fact is this problem was started in Washington, primarily by Barney Frank in the late 1990s.  If you are a mortgage broker or mortgage banker, you aren't going to extend too loans that don't conform to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac because they won't be bought or guaranteed in the secondary mortgage market.

What Frank did was lower the requirements of what would be secured in the secondary market and backed by FM and FM.  He also then required lenders to extend a certain amount to people who qualified under these new "loose" (read, "idiotic") guidelines.

So, lenders, greedy as they are, didn't come up with the idea of handing out money to people that wouldn't pay it back.  Washington did.  Bush gets the blame, but as is often the case with these things, it was a congressional problem, not a presidential problem, and it started nearly two years before he even got into office (similar to how the last two years of the Bush administration were also run by a Democratic congress.  Couple that with a not-so-conservative Bush, and really the last two years of Bush were not so different from the first year of Obama when it comes to spending, Obama has just taken it to a even more irresponsible level....and of course Bush gets the blame, not the Democratic congress).

I will say Bush didn't do anything to stop it.  Sometime in 2002, in an effort to reach out to minorities, he noted that his goal was to make sure some 2 million minorities owned their own homes in the next few years.  So he, or his administration, didn't open their eyes to what was inevitably going to happen.  So they are partially to blame as well.

Anyway, in the end, greed perpetuated the problem perhaps, as builders and lenders were getting fat and happy.  But it was allowed to take place, and the guidelines were laid out by Washington.  To me, the blame falls on them.  You can't stop greed, but you can set up guidelines that don't fan the flames and encourage it.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2010, 02:39:46 PM by jadennis »
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Re: Birmingham officially sucks more...
« Reply #156 on: February 17, 2010, 02:39:01 PM »
And I only want to sit in my lawn chair, drink a Jack and coke, smoke my cigar, and listen to my talk radio stations.
As long as you stick to Jack & Coke and not a high gravity beer, or one brewed locally, you're cool.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2010, 02:39:49 PM by AUChizad »
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Re: Birmingham officially sucks more...
« Reply #157 on: February 17, 2010, 02:42:04 PM »
Greed doesn't help, but the fact is this problem was started in Washington, primarily by Barney Frank in the late 1990s.  If you are a mortgage broker or mortgage banker, you aren't going to extend too loans that don't conform to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac because they won't be bought or guaranteed in the secondary mortgage market.

What Frank did was lower the requirements of what would be secured in the secondary market and backed by FM and FM.  He also then required lenders to extend a certain amount to people who qualified under these new "loose" (read, "idiotic") guidelines.

So, lenders, greedy as they are, didn't come up with the idea of handing out money to people that wouldn't pay it back.  Washington did.  Bush gets the blame, but as is often the case with these things, it was a congressional problem, not a presidential problem, and it started nearly two years before he even got into office (similar to how the last two years of the Bush administration were also run by a Democratic congress.  Couple that with a not-so-conservative Bush, and really the last two years of Bush were not so different from the first year of Obama when it comes to spending, Obama has just taken it to a even more irresponsible level....and of course Bush gets the blame, not the Democratic congress).

I will say Bush didn't do anything to stop it.  Sometime in 2002, in an effort to reach out to minorities, he noted that his goal was to make sure some 2 million minorities owned their own homes in the next few years.  So he, or his administration, didn't open their eyes to what was inevitably going to happen.  So they are partially to blame as well.

Anyway, in the end, greed perpetuated the problem perhaps, as builders and lenders were getting fat and happy.  But it was allowed to take place, and the guidelines were laid out by Washington.  To me, the blame falls on them.  You can't stop greed, but you can set up guidelines that don't fan the flames and encourage it.

Winner.
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Re: Birmingham officially sucks more...
« Reply #158 on: February 17, 2010, 02:44:57 PM »
You stated that "these people," meaning our generation of 18-29 year olds, are the ones who elected the current administration in D.C.  Untrue.  13% is not enough to get him elected.

It was actually 66-33.  Nonetheless, you're still assuming that all of the new voters voted for Obama.  It's very possible that many of those new voters made up that 33%.  Again, I'm not claiming that all or even a majority of the new voters opposed Obama; most of them probably did come out and vote to support him, but it's an assumption to state that the new voters all voted for Obama.

And, again, even if they did, only 13% of Obama's vote was made up of our generation (18-29).  New voters or not, we did not "elect these idiots in D.C.," as you stated.  We were a part of that vote, yes, but only 13% of it; the older generations were 40% of it.  We may have come out in record numbers, but yet again as I've already stated, we were outvoted as we often are.  If the older generations had as much sense as everyone claims, then Obama's 40% of votes wouldn't have come from them, and they could have changed the election and taken control away from us dumb whippersnappers.  But instead, they voted with us, adding 40% to his votes.

Aesthetics is subjective, so there is no use in arguing that, but functional?  It's more functional to deliver messages by horse than by internet?  More functional to drive to Washington state than to fly?  Your broad statements had nothing to do with liberal or conservative policies; you simply stated that our country had a better quality of life during the 1800s - 1950s as opposed to the 1960s to now.  If you think our country is less functional than it was 200 years ago, then I'm not sure what else to say.

Before, during, and immediately after the Civil War, the nation's economy was based around agricultural.  The Industrial Revolution had occurred in Europe decades before, and was now sweeping into America.  War does not automatically result in an economic boom upon its completion.  The Vietnam War was responsible for a heavy strain on the financial resources of the U.S. economy, as most wars do.  There was an imbalance in the industrial sector; factories which were manufacturing consumer goods had to shift their onus towards catering to the demands of the military.

Due to excessive military spending and diversion of funds overseas, the dollar weakened.  There was no equivalent amount of funds coming into the country.  The country cringed under the strain of household social spending and subsidies on one side and military expenditure on the other.  The government earned dissatisfaction from the general public as the interest rates rose and inflationary trends ballooned.  The affluent lifestyle of the 60s began to erode because of the economic paralysis.

Certainly, but ignoring the political decisions that helped effectuate this change is also a mistake.  The Fordney-McCumber Act (1922) and the Hawley-Smoot Act (1930) created the highest-ever schedule of tariffs for foreign-made goods.  This was done in response to the modernization of America, which gave us the technology to trade with foreign countries.  Such trade opened up the international market and threatened the marketability of our domestic goods, as is evidenced today.  The very basic principal of progressivism is that it is a political movement that addresses ideas and issues stemming from the modernization of American society.  These tariffs were essentially a progressive attempt to address the recent modernization of American society within the recently developed international trade scene.

I agree that overextending credit was not a great idea.  I also agree that it was the major cause of the most recent economic crash.  To call it a progressive move, however, isn't quite correct.  Maybe our contemporary definition of "progressive" has become skewed, especially with the Obama administration, but historically in the United States political system progressivism is characterized as a need for efficiency in society by means of ridding waste and corruption.  As society changes, or modernizes, the manner in which we can satisfy this goal changes.  New obstacles arise, and new solutions are needed.  That's why the root word is "progress;"  things are dynamic, not static.

Cultural progressivism has often focused on equality and social reform.  Maybe that is what leads you to believe that progressivism would extend credit to everyone equally, despite their inability to manage the debt.  However, economic ideas within progressivism must be (and traditionally have been) separated from social ideas.  Giving money to those who will never be able to responsibly pay it back does not embody progressivism, as it promotes waste.  I would argue that capitalism, the free market, and greed are what led to creditors extending loans to those who wouldn't be able to pay.

Just curious...how old are you?

All OTHER things remaining equal from the 2000 and 2004 elections  - yes, the 18-29 demographic is what got Hussein elected. The majority of the over 30 white vote went GOP, and 98% of the black vote went Democrat. The only difference in this election from the last is the increase of voters between 18-29....It made the difference. Blacks did not get Obama elected - young whites did. Again - they made the difference.

Quote
Giving money to those who will never be able to responsibly pay it back does not embody progressivism, as it promotes waste.  I would argue that capitalism, the free market, and greed are what led to creditors extending loans to those who wouldn't be able to pay.

Absolutely wrong. As they are the ones who have done it. When I say "progressive policy", I don't literally mean "progress" from an efficiency standpoint - I mean more less "liberal policy" guised as progress. We all know that is the farthest thing from actual "progressive policy". Progressive Policy instituted by Jimmy Carter and put on steroids by Billy Clinton promoted "giving money to those who will never be able to responsibly pay it back". See the Community Reinvestment Act of 1979 (revamped several times in the 90's under Clinton). Creditors/Banks were forced to lend to undeserving people. It has all come to a head now. The subprime market collapsed because of this. If you want to listen to Barney Frank and believe that garbage he spews, then go ahead. But this crisis was a direct result of over extension of credit to people who could not handle it - all for the sake of International PR and getting to tell the rest of the world that even our lowest class can "afford" a home. Much in the same way the GD was caused. Its the entitlement mentality.

Functional - yes, life was much more functional then. People did what they NEEDED to do FIRST and not what wanted to do as #1 priority. People had their priorities a lot more straight than now. Sure - let me get that Playstation 3, the newest laptop, a new CD and eat out half the time - while the mortgage payment falls by the wayside. Do you think people did this "back in the day"? NO. People had to eat, so that got up at the crack of dawn to farm. Again, you are taking technological advances the last 100 years and showing me those as the reasons we are more functional now. Thats mixing apples and oranges. One of your examples - Airplanes. Most people take air travel for pleasure(a WANT) not business (functional - a NEED). Most technology we use is for personal convenience. My point was that people did things more out of NEED then. People more things NOW than ever out of WANT. Tell how that is more functional.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2010, 02:51:22 PM by GH2001 »
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Re: Birmingham officially sucks more...
« Reply #159 on: February 17, 2010, 02:47:33 PM »
As long as you stick to Jack & Coke and not a high gravity beer, or one brewed locally, you're cool.

Do I need to complain to the moderator about you dragging a topic into another thread?


I'm really getting to the age where I don't care what you drink or smoke or listen to just stay the hell off of my lawn and leave me the hell alone.

(Where's that Grandpa Simpson emoticon?)
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