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Five Less B'Ham Policemen on the Streets Tonight

Argo

Re: Five Less B'Ham Policemen on the Streets Tonight
« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2009, 07:36:42 PM »
Thats cool and all, but after a guy gets ejected out of a moving vehicle and then isn't moving, its safe to surmise that he is badly injured, and possibly unconscious. Judging by the video in that car, I don't see how that officer could not have seen he was ejected. Also, If they were in the right, why was the tape edited in the first place, and why did the officer walk back to the car to ensure that his camera was off? Why were they fired instead of placed on administrative leave? Why would the police chief publically call their actions "shameful"? Why would the mayor call the video "disgusting"? This doesn't sound like the actions of city officials who are trying to sugarcoat it to avoid a lawsuit. This sounds like officials who know it is wrong.

The video being edited is the most damning bit of evidence against some, not all, of the officers. 

Birmingham PD has a very bad relationship with the general public in Birmingham.  Firing all 5 of the officers was a political move and you should know that more than anyone here, being that you work in law enforcement.  As for the city mayor calling the video "disgusting", are you serious?  Do you know who the city mayor is and how much bullsh*t he is involved with himself?  Taking out the fact that Birmingham's mayor may be the worst mayor in their history, his statement was a political move.  Again, if you are in law enforcement, you should know the politically correct move in this situation was to separate the officers from the department.  Especially if your city and county are operating in the red due to a piss poor mayor.

As I've already stated, at least 3 out of the 5 will be given their job back and will probably receive back pay.  I think a 4th officer should be able to get his job back. 
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Snaggletiger

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Re: Five Less B'Ham Policemen on the Streets Tonight
« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2009, 11:58:51 PM »
If you are a citizen and a police officer tells you to stop, the farthest you should take it in complying with his/her orders is to make sure you are in a well lit, public place when you do comply.  (Yes, I'll pull over at this well lit truck stop ahead but not here on a lonely, dark country road)  Otherwise, police officer says stop, you stop.

If you choose to do otherwise, you NEED your ass beat to a pulp.  Period.  No if's, ands or buts.  Comply within reason or get your ass beat like the bitch you are.  I am a plaintiff lawyer.  An ambulance chasing scumbag according to many of you.  I refuse to take any case where some stupid sumbitch decides to give the finger to authority and then complain when he gets his sorry ass slapped upside his thick skull.  Fuck you.

Police officers put their lives on the line at every freakin' traffic stop, at every response to a domestic dispute, at every stop of some drunk ass bastard stumbling down the side of the road.  Stop means stop.  Deal with improper treatment in a court of law after the fact.  If you run after a cop says STOP...I don't give a flying fuck what your reasoning is short of a medical emergency...you stop. 

If you choose not stop, then let me be the first to kidney punch your PATHETIC ASS.
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The Prowler

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Re: Five Less B'Ham Policemen on the Streets Tonight
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2009, 03:02:06 AM »
I'm guessing that the Nap Sacks and Ash thing didn't work.
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Jumbo

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Re: Five Less B'Ham Policemen on the Streets Tonight
« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2009, 03:04:48 AM »
I'm guessing that the Nap Sacks and Ash thing didn't work.
give it time.
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JR4AU

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Re: Five Less B'Ham Policemen on the Streets Tonight
« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2009, 11:31:00 PM »
I didn't ask what you would do in that situation.  I asked what Birmingham PD could or could not do in that situation.  You say they sure could have drawn their weapons, but you didn't say whether or not they had to.  Are they required to draw their weapons in that situation?

Are you an instructor or are you certified in PPCT?  While I agree that you can't strike the head with closed fists, you can and are taught to strike the brachial plexus with semi closed fists. 

I admit, when I first seen the video, it looked to me like the subject was being punched in the side of the face.  When we slowed the video down, you can see the left hand is hitting around the brachial plexus nearly every time.  I won't argue for the right hand because you obviously don't have a great angle to see exactly where he was landing the strikes.



I was certified in PPCT.  Like I said...they could have done it right, they didn't.  Should they have been fired?  I'm not privy to their individual service records, but I understand they were all pretty clean by word of mouth.  That would factor in, IMHO, in this situation.

A few things stand out to me, and it goes to state of mind.  They never once tried to cuff him on the video.  The guy with the baton would probably have been ok if he'd have made his first strike then attempted to subdue him.  The guy beating on his head...he was just wrong.   

I suspect you're a LEO...you know like I do...the force continuum is as much about how you justify your use of force as what you actually do.  They're not nearly as black and white as you seem to want to make them out (ie, if the suspect does this, you can then draw your service weapon)  As a general rule they go this way:

Verbal Commands, less than lethal (which can be pepper spray, or taser usually...and different departments say which one first differently if they have both) laying on of hands (ppct), impact weapons (baton/ppct), deadly force.  An officer, regardless of his department's policies, is allowed to use the force neccessary to subdue the subject, and/or to protect himself or others.  Other than deadly force which requires that the user of deadly force reasonably fear for his life or another's, the officer may use one step above what the subject is using.  IOW, if the subject is verbally non-compliant, less than lethal is ok.  If he's physically combative but unarmed, the officer may lay hands on him, use less than lethal, or impact weapons.  In the end it's all about what he can justify by what he says he perceived. 

FWIW, drawing your weapon is nothing more than verbal commands in the force continuum...until you use it...an officer can draw his weapon any time he thinks he might need it.  It's when he uses it he has to justfy it.     
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Argo

Re: Five Less B'Ham Policemen on the Streets Tonight
« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2009, 12:04:34 AM »
I only brought the point up about the force continuum because I've been told that Birmingham has an actually policy on when they can, and can't draw their service weapon.  I don't know if that's true, but I was told it has to do with wrongful shootings in the past and it was a public relations move by the department.  That, along with other things I've heard, makes me believe that only 1, possibly 2 officers should have been fired. 

I'll leave this topic with one final thought.  If you were the 3rd or 4th car on the scene and saw one or two of your officers appear to be struggling with the guy, would you engage the suspect or sit back and let them have it?  We're not talking 30 seconds to a minute to actually survey the situation.  We're talking in the 5 seconds this took to unfold(before everyone was on the guy), would you have made the decision not to approach the suspect and help your fellow officers?  If you would have been in that situation, and ran over to help your fellow officers because you thought they were fighting with the suspect, you wouldn't have a job right now.  I think it's BS that 5 were fired, and it shocks me to see other LEOs publicly state that it was the right decision.   

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Saniflush

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Re: Five Less B'Ham Policemen on the Streets Tonight
« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2009, 07:29:53 AM »
If you are a citizen and a police officer tells you to stop, the farthest you should take it in complying with his/her orders is to make sure you are in a well lit, public place when you do comply.  (Yes, I'll pull over at this well lit truck stop ahead but not here on a lonely, dark country road) 

You really need to quit hanging out in those restrooms.
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