Five Less B'Ham Policemen on the Streets Tonight

[Townhallsavoy]

http://videos.al.com/birmingham-news/2009/05/birmingham_police_beating_vide.html

http://blog.al.com/spotnews/2009/05/five_birmingham_police_officer.html

Cops were in the wrong, but they shouldn't have been fired. 

[Jumbo]

Was that Greasy behind the wheel of the van?

[RWS]

http://videos.al.com/birmingham-news/2009/05/birmingham_police_beating_vide.html

http://blog.al.com/spotnews/2009/05/five_birmingham_police_officer.html

Cops were in the wrong, but they shouldn't have been fired. 

Shouldn't have been fired? Why?

[Townhallsavoy]

Shouldn't have been fired? Why?

That motherfucker attempted to kill a police officer.  Technically, they could have shot him as he was using his vehicle as a weapon with the intention to kill.  For them to overreact is no different than an asshole putting his hands on my wife at a bar.  I'm an upstanding citizen, a school teacher, a church goer, and I have a clean record; but if someone puts their hands on my wife at a bar, they're going to get a beer bottle to the side of the head.  It's not right, but it's justifiable. 

They should have given those cops some anger management classes and a suspension without pay. 

[RWS]

That motherfucker attempted to kill a police officer.  Technically, they could have shot him as he was using his vehicle as a weapon with the intention to kill.  For them to overreact is no different than an asshole putting his hands on my wife at a bar.  I'm an upstanding citizen, a school teacher, a church goer, and I have a clean record; but if someone puts their hands on my wife at a bar, they're going to get a beer bottle to the side of the head.  It's not right, but it's justifiable. 

They should have given those cops some anger management classes and a suspension without pay. 

I'm all about him being a piece of garbage for attempting to kill a police officer. Don't get me wrong, I work for the po-po, so I'm totally with you on that. However, it is their job to be above the average citizen who had some jackass put hands on his wife. It doesn't matter if he had decided to stop, walk out with his hands up, then lay flat on the ground with his arms and legs spread. There is still a standard there that you have to abide by. Even if he had attempted to kill an officer, at this point he was unconscious and obviously not a threat. Even our officers were like "Wow, that was fucking stupid" when they were watching the video at shift change. It was used as a "DO NOT DO THIS!" tool.

[CCTAU]

Calmly walk up, draw your service weapon, shoot the rabid dog in the head, and then call the pound.


Do people really believe that they have the right to screw with a man with a gun and a badge?

[RWS]

Calmly walk up, draw your service weapon, shoot the rabid dog in the head, and then call the pound.


Do people really believe that they have the right to screw with a man with a gun and a badge?

I agree, people should know not to mess with the police, but what they did was still wrong. Care to find out why it has taken OVER one year for the video and story of an unconscious black man being beaten by police officers in Birmingham to come out? The only reason the beating was discovered was because of the prosecutor handling the case against Mr. Warren. She had requested a copy of the dashcam video and noticed that it abruptly cut off when the vehicle started its roll. There were some other technical issues with the video, so she requested another copy from the PD. The second copy she got was the un-edited version and showed the whole thing.

One of our officers is ex-Tuscaloosa PD. He says that the system Birmingham uses is similar to our Digital Patroller system. All of the video is stored in a digital format on a hard drive in the car. You hard drive holds so much data, then you have to download it to the PD server. As an officer, you cannot edit, delete, or in anyway modify the video. Somebody higher up has to do that, which is what I suspect happened in this case as well. While you have the edited version, the original always stays in the system and cannot be deleted. Why would they edit the video if they were only following procedure?

The officer driving the car that shot the video you saw even had the presence of mind to go back to his car and shut off his lights and siren so the recording system would shut off as well. If either one of those are on, or usually if your car is doing over 70 MPH, the system automatically activates. All of the officers have given the story that they did not know he had been ejected from the vehicle and labeled him as "non-compliant" as they were ordering him to show his hands, and they were not aware that he was unconscious. There are a few problems with that explanation. First, you don't approach a subject that is "non-compliant" in close quarters when they will not show their hands. You draw your taser or gun, and if the subject then becomes compliant, you safely approach with weapon still drawn. No officer in their right mind would run up to a subject who is not showing his hands when they have no idea what he might do, especially when the guy has shown he has no regard for the life of a law enforcement officer.

Second, I don't buy the whole "we didn't know he was ejected" story. Its very very clear in the tape that he was ejected. Even as the officers started beating him, he never resisted. They beat him for about 10 seconds, and even as the others stopped and started getting back to their feet, you still have one officer taking head shots on the guy.

[JR4AU]

I'm all about him being a piece of garbage for attempting to kill a police officer. Don't get me wrong, I work for the po-po, so I'm totally with you on that. However, it is their job to be above the average citizen who had some jackass put hands on his wife. It doesn't matter if he had decided to stop, walk out with his hands up, then lay flat on the ground with his arms and legs spread. There is still a standard there that you have to abide by. Even if he had attempted to kill an officer, at this point he was unconscious and obviously not a threat. Even our officers were like "Wow, that was fucking stupid" when they were watching the video at shift change. It was used as a "DO NOT DO THIS!" tool.

Can't believe I'm agreeing with the bammer!  The officer that he tried to hit could have shot him, but you can't shoot fleeing suspects.  And that's another thing, they didn't even have charges on this guy until he tried to hit the Hoover officer.  The police need to have better sense than to endager the entire Metro area chasing someone suspected of drug activity (not a violent crime mind you).  And yes, the police are supposed to be smarter and better than the pieces of shit they're chasing and arresting.  We pay them to be better.  If I was walking down the street and saw someone I thought might be in to drug activity, and I ran them down and beat their ass...I would be the one going to jail for assault.  The badge and gun don't give them the right to dispense justice on the side of the road.  And I've heard this "they couldn't see his hands" argument..."he might have been armed"...well he might have had an atom bomb!  After they beat his ass a bit not a one of them even tried to cuff him, or get control of his hands or check for weapons, they left his hands right where they were.  They weren't worried about a gun, or knife, they were wanting their pound of flesh.  That first guy in with the baton could have justified his strike, if he's made efforts to then try to cuff him.  He didn't.  That moron that jumped on the guy's head and pounded him with closed fist?  There's nothing even remotely resembling any police training I had that justifies that. 

[RWS]

Can't believe I'm agreeing with the bammer!  The officer that he tried to hit could have shot him, but you can't shoot fleeing suspects.  And that's another thing, they didn't even have charges on this guy until he tried to hit the Hoover officer.  The police need to have better sense than to endager the entire Metro area chasing someone suspected of drug activity (not a violent crime mind you).  And yes, the police are supposed to be smarter and better than the pieces of shit they're chasing and arresting.  We pay them to be better.  If I was walking down the street and saw someone I thought might be in to drug activity, and I ran them down and beat their ass...I would be the one going to jail for assault.  The badge and gun don't give them the right to dispense justice on the side of the road.  And I've heard this "they couldn't see his hands" argument..."he might have been armed"...well he might have had an atom bomb!  After they beat his ass a bit not a one of them even tried to cuff him, or get control of his hands or check for weapons, they left his hands right where they were.  They weren't worried about a gun, or knife, they were wanting their pound of flesh.  That first guy in with the baton could have justified his strike, if he's made efforts to then try to cuff him.  He didn't.  That moron that jumped on the guy's head and pounded him with closed fist?  There's nothing even remotely resembling any police training I had that justifies that. 

Its like our Sgt. said a little while ago when we were reading about how the guy is now suing the PD. Did the guy get what he had coming to him? Yes. Should they have done what they did? No. They let their adrenaline get to them, plain and simple. The goal of force is the intent to gain compliance from a suspect, not to punish. Everybody may do little things like maybe cuffing them a little too tight, small simple things like that. Thats one thing. But to beat the shit out of somebody that is unconscious, thats not what your training tells you to do.

[JR4AU]

Its like our Sgt. said a little while ago when we were reading about how the guy is now suing the PD. Did the guy get what he had coming to him? Yes. Should they have done what they did? No. They let their adrenaline get to them, plain and simple. The goal of force is the intent to gain compliance from a suspect, not to punish. Everybody may do little things like maybe cuffing them a little too tight, small simple things like that. Thats one thing. But to beat the shit out of somebody that is unconscious, thats not what your training tells you to do.

The smart ones can "get their licks in" while employing tactics that comply with training and policy. 

[Saniflush]

The smart ones can "get their licks in" while employing tactics that comply with training and policy. 

Make them hold a pillow and hit through that.....


I mean yea.

[JR4AU]

Do people really believe that they have the right to screw with a man with a gun and a badge?

Do people really believe that cops are above the law?  Is it ok to break the law to arrest a law breaker? 

[Godfather]

I agree, people should know not to mess with the police, but what they did was still wrong. Care to find out why it has taken OVER one year for the video and story of an unconscious black man being beaten by police officers in Birmingham to come out? The only reason the beating was discovered was because of the prosecutor handling the case against Mr. Warren. She had requested a copy of the dashcam video and noticed that it abruptly cut off when the vehicle started its roll. There were some other technical issues with the video, so she requested another copy from the PD. The second copy she got was the un-edited version and showed the whole thing.

One of our officers is ex-Tuscaloosa PD. He says that the system Birmingham uses is similar to our Digital Patroller system. All of the video is stored in a digital format on a hard drive in the car. You hard drive holds so much data, then you have to download it to the PD server. As an officer, you cannot edit, delete, or in anyway modify the video. Somebody higher up has to do that, which is what I suspect happened in this case as well. While you have the edited version, the original always stays in the system and cannot be deleted. Why would they edit the video if they were only following procedure?

The officer driving the car that shot the video you saw even had the presence of mind to go back to his car and shut off his lights and siren so the recording system would shut off as well. If either one of those are on, or usually if your car is doing over 70 MPH, the system automatically activates. All of the officers have given the story that they did not know he had been ejected from the vehicle and labeled him as "non-compliant" as they were ordering him to show his hands, and they were not aware that he was unconscious. There are a few problems with that explanation. First, you don't approach a subject that is "non-compliant" in close quarters when they will not show their hands. You draw your taser or gun, and if the subject then becomes compliant, you safely approach with weapon still drawn. No officer in their right mind would run up to a subject who is not showing his hands when they have no idea what he might do, especially when the guy has shown he has no regard for the life of a law enforcement officer.

Second, I don't buy the whole "we didn't know he was ejected" story. Its very very clear in the tape that he was ejected. Even as the officers started beating him, he never resisted. They beat him for about 10 seconds, and even as the others stopped and started getting back to their feet, you still have one officer taking head shots on the guy.

Wow, I learned something from Farva.

[Pell City Tiger]

Is it ok to break the law to arrest a law breaker?

Yes. Before they whipped the shit out of him, they should have tasered him 4 or 10 times, emptied 10 canisters of pepper spray into his eyes, called in 10 K-9 units so the dogs could get a piece of his ass, then beat the ever loving hell out of him. After the cops ran out of ideas on how to punish him more, scoop his ass out of the culvert and pour whats left of him into the ambulance. Fuck taking him to the hospital. Take him to a Doc-in-the-box. Hospital is too good for him. Let the nurse practitioner hand him a couple of 500mg Tylenol's, throw a few Sesame Street band aids on his open wounds, then kick his ass out onto the street.

If cops could get tougher on these punks, maybe they'd think twice about detouring from civilized behavior.

[JR4AU]

Yes. Before they whipped the shit out of him, they should have tasered him 4 or 10 times, emptied 10 canisters of pepper spray into his eyes, called in 10 K-9 units so the dogs could get a piece of his ass, then beat the ever loving hell out of him. After the cops ran out of ideas on how to punish him more, scoop his ass out of the culvert and pour whats left of him into the ambulance. Fuck taking him to the hospital. Take him to a Doc-in-the-box. Hospital is too good for him. Let the nurse practitioner hand him a couple of 500mg Tylenol's, throw a few Sesame Street band aids on his open wounds, then kick his ass out onto the street.

If cops could get tougher on these punks, maybe they'd think twice about detouring from civilized behavior.

Be careful what you wish for!

[CCTAU]

Do people really believe that cops are above the law?  Is it ok to break the law to arrest a law breaker? 

Does it really matter who thinks they are above the law? You still tote and ass whooping or a bullet to the head. Even if the cop is convicted, you still pay the consequences. If you had just pulled over and did the right thing, then nobody would have to be above the law.

Its like riding a bicycle on a busy highway. Do you have that right? YES. But when you get your ass run over, you are still run over no matter who was in the wrong. It pays to use common sense in life. If not, then all involved will pay the consequences, just as they did in this case.

[Argo]

RWS or JR4AU, do either of you know what Birmingham PD's force continuum plan is?  Do either of you know what Birmingham's standard procedure is on a high speed chase that ends with a wreck?  Could they draw lethal force when approaching the subject?  Were they required to draw with lethal force when approaching the suspect, or could they indeed approach with baton strikes to major muscle groups?

I'm not willing to engage in an argument about who was right or wrong because I refuse to second guess their split-second decisions.  Just know that there isn't a State law mandating a certain force continuum plan for all law enforcement officers.  Most departments have their own continuum plan on how they respond to certain situations.

I'd guess that 3, possibly 4, out of the 5 will be back on the streets of Birmingham before it's all said and done.


 

[JR4AU]

RWS or JR4AU, do either of you know what Birmingham PD's force continuum plan is?  Do either of you know what Birmingham's standard procedure is on a high speed chase that ends with a wreck?  Could they draw lethal force when approaching the subject?  Were they required to draw with lethal force when approaching the suspect, or could they indeed approach with baton strikes to major muscle groups?

I'm not willing to engage in an argument about who was right or wrong because I refuse to second guess their split-second decisions.  Just know that there isn't a State law mandating a certain force continuum plan for all law enforcement officers.  Most departments have their own continuum plan on how they respond to certain situations.

I'd guess that 3, possibly 4, out of the 5 will be back on the streets of Birmingham before it's all said and done.


 

There is no police force continuum or any police training that says "jump on the guy's head and beat him with closed fists about the head and shoulders".  NOTHING.  The first guy was probably ok with the first baton strike.  He went to the the common peroneal in the thigh.  But it's clear the cop who realizes his recorder is running knows they're out of line, it's clear that although they claimed they couldn't see his hands and he could have been armed, none of them made an effort to get them out from under him and cuff him.  He was still laying there uncuffed when they stopped beating on him, and the camera was shut off.  They didn't fear anything...they were pissed and wanted to beat his ass.  

What the hell does "draw lethal force" mean?  Could they have drawn their guns?  Well if I was truly afraid someone was armed, that's what I would do, and I'd take cover and give verbal commands to order them to a controlled position to cuff them safely.  I would not run and jump on them and beat them and never try to gain control of their hands so I could see them.   No they would not have been justified in shooting him in that situation, but they sure could have drawn their weapons.  In fact that's what I would have done.  

[Argo]

I didn't ask what you would do in that situation.  I asked what Birmingham PD could or could not do in that situation.  You say they sure could have drawn their weapons, but you didn't say whether or not they had to.  Are they required to draw their weapons in that situation?

Are you an instructor or are you certified in PPCT?  While I agree that you can't strike the head with closed fists, you can and are taught to strike the brachial plexus with semi closed fists. 

I admit, when I first seen the video, it looked to me like the subject was being punched in the side of the face.  When we slowed the video down, you can see the left hand is hitting around the brachial plexus nearly every time.  I won't argue for the right hand because you obviously don't have a great angle to see exactly where he was landing the strikes.

[RWS]

I didn't ask what you would do in that situation.  I asked what Birmingham PD could or could not do in that situation.  You say they sure could have drawn their weapons, but you didn't say whether or not they had to.  Are they required to draw their weapons in that situation?

Are you an instructor or are you certified in PPCT?  While I agree that you can't strike the head with closed fists, you can and are taught to strike the brachial plexus with semi closed fists.  

I admit, when I first seen the video, it looked to me like the subject was being punched in the side of the face.  When we slowed the video down, you can see the left hand is hitting around the brachial plexus nearly every time.  I won't argue for the right hand because you obviously don't have a great angle to see exactly where he was landing the strikes.

Thats cool and all, but after a guy gets ejected out of a moving vehicle and then isn't moving, its safe to surmise that he is badly injured, and possibly unconscious. Judging by the video in that car, I don't see how that officer could not have seen he was ejected. Also, If they were in the right, why was the tape edited in the first place, and why did the officer walk back to the car to ensure that his camera was off? Why were they fired instead of placed on administrative leave? Why would the police chief publically call their actions "shameful"? Why would the mayor call the video "disgusting"? This doesn't sound like the actions of city officials who are trying to sugarcoat it to avoid a lawsuit. This sounds like officials who know it is wrong.