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Hate Crimes in Auburn

boartitz

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Re: Hate Crimes in Auburn
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2009, 04:43:57 PM »
It's bad karma to be fucking around in a cemetary.
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AWK

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Re: Hate Crimes in Auburn
« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2009, 04:46:29 PM »
To those of us who memorialize the 700,000 men who fought and died in that war on BOTH sides it is not 'shit'.  That is the whole point of putting flags on their graves and tending to cemeteries so they don't fall into disrepair and get forgotten.  I even do that for my Grandfathers and Uncles who fought for the U. S. in WWII and Vietnam (U. S. flags obviously).  I suppose that is shit too!  If the younger generation doesn't do these things who will?  Obviously not the self-centered current crop of yutes who care more about what's on their fucking iPod or who is picked on signing day.  No personal offense intended.

I was very happy last weekend to see some young folk at the Confederate Memorial Service that I helped with show some interest in history and ask questions of me and others.  That's how you learn (in addition to reading) rather than wallow in ignorance.  Again, no personal offense.
Um, no one alive today personally knew anyone that had to do anything with the civil war.  I understand your point, to honor those who fought and died. However, at the same time and in the same context, you have to realize that this might be offensive to some people.  You are memorializing your great grandfather, but others think of it as demoralizing their ancestors/relatives because of the slavery issue.   
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CCTAU

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Re: Hate Crimes in Auburn
« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2009, 05:04:45 PM »
Um, no one alive today personally knew anyone that had to do anything with the civil war.  I understand your point, to honor those who fought and died. However, at the same time and in the same context, you have to realize that this might be offensive to some people.  You are memorializing your great grandfather, but others think of it as demoralizing their ancestors/relatives because of the slavery issue.   

Others? As in the 10% of the blacks in America who believe that it reminds them of slavery? You know, the one's who know no one from that era either.

Screw them and anyone else who is offended. Americans fought and died for states' rights. Slavery was of the smallest reason until the north had to have something to give their soldiers to believe in, then it became a war to save the darkies. Slavery was on its way out. Industrialization and mechanization was much cheaper than slavery. The south did not fight for slavery, the north were fed a load of bull in thinking that they were fighting against it. The north armies were ready to just quit until they were convinced they wre holier than thou and saving the darkies for the ignorant southerners.

Our heritage is that of brave young men and women who answered the call to fight against an oppressive federal government controlled by those who knew nothing about rural life. Unfortunately we have spawned a generation of government educated folks who have no idea what it is to be part of any heritage.

If I went to a black graveyard and so much as took a piss on the outer edge, I would be excoriated by the likes of those who do not understand heritage. The young people of today have been duped into thinking everything is about race. But the only race that matters is the black race.

To ignore this guys obvious racial hate toward anything dealing with the civil war is to buy into the lie that blacks own all types of discrimination while everyone else can just suck it.


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AWK

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Re: Hate Crimes in Auburn
« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2009, 07:13:46 PM »
Others? As in the 10% of the blacks in America who believe that it reminds them of slavery? You know, the one's who know no one from that era either.

Screw them and anyone else who is offended. Americans fought and died for states' rights. Slavery was of the smallest reason until the north had to have something to give their soldiers to believe in, then it became a war to save the darkies. Slavery was on its way out. Industrialization and mechanization was much cheaper than slavery. The south did not fight for slavery, the north were fed a load of bull in thinking that they were fighting against it. The north armies were ready to just quit until they were convinced they wre holier than thou and saving the darkies for the ignorant southerners.

Our heritage is that of brave young men and women who answered the call to fight against an oppressive federal government controlled by those who knew nothing about rural life. Unfortunately we have spawned a generation of government educated folks who have no idea what it is to be part of any heritage.

If I went to a black graveyard and so much as took a piss on the outer edge, I would be excoriated by the likes of those who do not understand heritage. The young people of today have been duped into thinking everything is about race. But the only race that matters is the black race.

To ignore this guys obvious racial hate toward anything dealing with the civil war is to buy into the lie that blacks own all types of discrimination while everyone else can just suck it.



See, that is the problem.  I usually don't give a fuck about what people think, but sometimes you need to consider the other side of the situation. 
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AUChizad

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Re: Hate Crimes in Auburn
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2009, 10:42:38 AM »
See, that is the problem.  I usually don't give a fuck about what people think, but sometimes you need to consider the other side of the situation. 
Let alone, it's not just that 10%, but the majority of Americans' ancestors who fought for the United States of America.
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Saniflush

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Re: Hate Crimes in Auburn
« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2009, 10:49:54 AM »
Let alone, it's not just that 10%, but the majority of Americans' ancestors who fought for the United States of America.

Yes, and the SCV works hand in hand with that MAJORITY organization to preserve, honor, and tribute all of them.  What I am hearing you say is that someone who fought for the Federalists is more deserving of being honored than someone who fought for the confederacy?  It's not about who was on what side, it is about preserving a history that will no doubt be lost if ignored. 

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"Hey my friends are the ones that wanted to eat at that shitty hole in the wall that only served bread and wine.  What kind of brick and mud business model is that.  Stick to the cart if that's all you're going to serve.  Then that dude came in with like 12 other people, and some of them weren't even wearing shoes, and the restaurant sat them right across from us. It was gross, and they were all stinky and dirty.  Then dude starts talking about eating his body and drinking his blood...I almost lost it.  That's the last supper I'll ever have there, and I hope he dies a horrible death."

Tarheel

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Re: Hate Crimes in Auburn
« Reply #26 on: April 29, 2009, 01:24:36 PM »
Um, no one alive today personally knew anyone that had to do anything with the civil war.  I understand your point, to honor those who fought and died. However, at the same time and in the same context, you have to realize that this might be offensive to some people.  You are memorializing your great grandfather, but others think of it as demoralizing their ancestors/relatives because of the slavery issue.   

Fair enough to say.  However these the councilman (and others) also have to realize that the Civil War IS part of American History and a very real heritage of at least 35,000 plus Southerners who are members of the SCV. 

I understand that these people find the Confederate Flag offensive due to their ignorance and, yes, hate. However the same people who find the Confederate flag offensive because of the slavery issue usually point to groups like the KKK, Neo-Nazis, and Neo-Confederates who have and do use that flag.  They conveniently forget that the same groups also carry the U. S. Flag (the stars and stripes/ Old Glory) especially the KKK, skinheads, and Neo-Nazis.  I ask rhetorically is the U. S. Flag also a racist symbol of hate?  Maybe these same people ought to be offended by it to especially since slavery did happen under that flag prior to the American Civil War.  But they chose to remain blinded by their own ignorance.

More to the point of this topic; what Councilman Dowdle did is offensive to me and my group and the living descendants who placed those flags on the graves to honor the Confederate dead.

My group (the SCV) always obtains permission from municipal authorities, private owners, or family members before we place flags on any graves.  If the folk who placed the flags in Auburn did not get permission from the appropriate city officials (I understand it's a city cemetery) then the councilman probably has the authority to remove them.  But my understanding is that the groups and families did obtain permission from the appropriate people. 

The flags should not have been removed; offensive or not.

On a more personal note my family has photos and still tells stories of our Confederate ancestors to this day; and we still talk about those people today.  That's how you keep the memory alive of your ancestors.  To me they are every bit as real and deserving of respect as my Grandfathers and Uncles who fought in WWII and Vietnam (who I did personally know) even though I didn't personally know my Gr-Great Grandfather.  These stories enriched my life as a child and still do to this day which is why I have been an aficionado of Civil War politics and military history for more than 30 years now.
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Tiger Wench

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Re: Hate Crimes in Auburn
« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2009, 02:36:54 PM »
Desecration of anything left on a grave, regardless of the sentiment attached, is vandalism.  The personal opinions of others hold no sway over freedom of speech, which is what the placing of Confederate flags on these graves amounts to.  If someone had torn up KKK flags that were left on the graves of some Grand Dragon, I would say the same thing.  You may not agree with the politics behind it, but people still have the right to express themselves.  Y'all are letting the sentiments cloud the issue.
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AWK

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Re: Hate Crimes in Auburn
« Reply #28 on: April 29, 2009, 02:42:13 PM »
Desecration of anything left on a grave, regardless of the sentiment attached, is vandalism.  The personal opinions of others hold no sway over freedom of speech, which is what the placing of Confederate flags on these graves amounts to.  If someone had torn up KKK flags that were left on the graves of some Grand Dragon, I would say the same thing.  You may not agree with the politics behind it, but people still have the right to express themselves.  Y'all are letting the sentiments cloud the issue.
That was my fault because I take issue with the waiving and flying of the confederate flag itself.  If you want my opinion on the councilman's actions, I think he is a retard and should not have torn up the flags.  Free speech, etc...  However, nothing will happen to the guy...as sad as it is. 
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Redskins cornerback DeAngelo Hall said, "Guys don't mind hitting Michael Vick in the open field, but when you see Cam, you have to think about how you're going to tackle him. He's like a big tight end coming at you."

Tarheel

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Re: Hate Crimes in Auburn
« Reply #29 on: April 29, 2009, 03:23:57 PM »
That was my fault because I take issue with the waiving and flying of the confederate flag itself.  If you want my opinion on the councilman's actions, I think he is a retard and should not have torn up the flags.  Free speech, etc...  However, nothing will happen to the guy...as sad as it is. 

Partially my fault too for getting off-topic.

Good discussion anyway.
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The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me. 
-Ayn Rand

The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.
-The Right Honourable Margaret Thatcher

The government solution to a problem is usually as bad as the problem.
-Milton Friedman

The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'
-Ronald Reagan

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
-Thomas Jefferson

Snaggletiger

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Re: Hate Crimes in Auburn
« Reply #30 on: April 29, 2009, 03:50:06 PM »
Your both racist bastards.

Heel hates Duke and Taylor hates the women.
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Pell City Tiger

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Re: Hate Crimes in Auburn
« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2009, 09:51:43 PM »
I'm late to this fight but wanted to throw in my $.02 worth. Numerous relatives of mine fought (and 3 died) for their country - the Confederate States of America. I am a proud member of SCV Camp 308 and I am extremely proud not only of my heritage, but for my ancestors who stood up and fought for something they believed in - states rights.

That being said, I would like to add this to the discussion:
Quote
In broad outline, the Confederate Constitution is an amended U.S. Constitution. Even on slavery, there is little difference. Whereas the U.S. Constitution ended the importation of slaves after 1808, the Confederate Constitution simply forbade it. Both constitutions allowed slave ownership, of course.

In fact, slavery only became a constitutional issue after the war had begun. In his 1861 inaugural address, Abraham Lincoln said, "Apprehension seems to exist among the people of the Southern States that by the accession of a Republican administration their property [is] to be endangered.... I have no purpose, directly or indirectly to interfere with the institution of slavery in the United States where it exists.... I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so."

http://mises.org/freemarket_detail.aspx?control=353
 

This myth that the War Between the States came about largely because of the slavery issue reeks of ignorance. The fact is that most southern whites did not own slaves - only about 400,000 out of 9 million in 1860 (http://www.slaveryinamerica.org/history/hs_es_overview.htm).

At the onset of the war, Lincoln's foremost goals had been to preserve the Union, to bring the war to an end with a minimum of bloodshed, and to avoid lingering animosity between Northern and Southern whites. If that could best be achieved by preserving slavery, he said, he would do so. Lincoln despised slavery, but he, like Thomas Jefferson and many others before him, doubted that blacks and whites could ever live in America in a condition of equality. For this reason, he wanted to deport those who had been brought to the states as slaves. The problem here is that he couldn't find a place to send the black population.

Lincoln's problem during this conflict was twofold; he was confronted at home by abolitionists who insisted that the war should be one for emancipation. Abroad, he was faced with growing skepticism about Northern war aims. If the Union goal was simply to reunite the country and preserve slavery, then the North was undertaking a war of aggression. The South's claim that it was fighting for its independence, just as the United States had done during the Revolution, was therefore valid, and foreign powers had the right to intervene as the French had done in 1778. All these pressures forced Lincoln to conclude that emancipation would have to become a Union war goal. This didn't happen until the war was well underway (after the Battle of Antietam) and only affected slaves held in states or territories still in rebellion against the United States. Didn't help those still indentured in northern households. Their freedom came with the ratification of the 13th Amendment in 1865 - the year the war ended.

Those men that fought and died for their country deserve as much respect as any other fallen soldier. What this councilman in Auburn did, desecration of their graves, is abominable and can best be described as a hate crime. He should be made to apologize, then personally replace every flag he removed.
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Pell City Tiger

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Re: Hate Crimes in Auburn
« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2009, 10:07:36 PM »
As my ex-pat, Russian banker (now an American) has sternly told me before: 'If you are ignorant about something you must educate yourself!'

Another great book recommendation, Sani.
Here's another recommendation for you

http://www.amazon.com/South-Right-James-Ronald-Kennedy/dp/1565540247
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"I stood up, unzipped my pants, lowered my shorts and placed my bare ass on the window. That's the last thing I wanted those people to see of me."

boartitz

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Re: Hate Crimes in Auburn
« Reply #33 on: April 30, 2009, 11:35:04 AM »
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Saniflush

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Re: Hate Crimes in Auburn
« Reply #34 on: April 30, 2009, 11:36:40 AM »
C.S.A.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0389828/

One of the largest wastes of my time that I have ever viewed.  I would expect nothing less from the closed mind of Spike Lee.
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"Hey my friends are the ones that wanted to eat at that shitty hole in the wall that only served bread and wine.  What kind of brick and mud business model is that.  Stick to the cart if that's all you're going to serve.  Then that dude came in with like 12 other people, and some of them weren't even wearing shoes, and the restaurant sat them right across from us. It was gross, and they were all stinky and dirty.  Then dude starts talking about eating his body and drinking his blood...I almost lost it.  That's the last supper I'll ever have there, and I hope he dies a horrible death."

AUTiger1

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Re: Hate Crimes in Auburn
« Reply #35 on: April 30, 2009, 11:40:38 AM »
One of the largest wastes of my time that I have ever viewed.  I would expect nothing less from the closed mind of Spike Lee.

Thanks for the heads up.  I have this on the DVR and haven't watched it yet.  I don't think I will now.  I got the brief synopsis that directtv gives you and didn't know anything about it.
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Saniflush

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Re: Hate Crimes in Auburn
« Reply #36 on: April 30, 2009, 12:42:42 PM »
Thanks for the heads up.  I have this on the DVR and haven't watched it yet.  I don't think I will now.  I got the brief synopsis that directtv gives you and didn't know anything about it.

There are actually a couple of interesting parts to it but then it goes off the deep end. in regards to the CSA aligning themselves with the Nazis and the like.
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"Hey my friends are the ones that wanted to eat at that shitty hole in the wall that only served bread and wine.  What kind of brick and mud business model is that.  Stick to the cart if that's all you're going to serve.  Then that dude came in with like 12 other people, and some of them weren't even wearing shoes, and the restaurant sat them right across from us. It was gross, and they were all stinky and dirty.  Then dude starts talking about eating his body and drinking his blood...I almost lost it.  That's the last supper I'll ever have there, and I hope he dies a horrible death."

AUTiger1

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Re: Hate Crimes in Auburn
« Reply #37 on: April 30, 2009, 01:04:00 PM »
There are actually a couple of interesting parts to it but then it goes off the deep end. in regards to the CSA aligning themselves with the Nazis and the like.

Which is what would piss me off royally.  The way I have it figured is that most people in the South were and still are pretty conservative.  The Nazis were as left wing as it got, but you have those out there that will label them as right-wingers.  I will assume that is why they took the angle of the South aligning themselves with the Nazi's?  Of course I have heard LBJ defined as right-wing for his part in the Vietnam War. 
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Courage is only fear holding on a minute longer.--George S. Patton

There are gonna be days when you lay your guts on the line and you come away empty handed, there ain't a damn thing you can do about it but go back out there and lay em on the line again...and again, and again! -- Coach Pat Dye

It isn't that liberals are ignorant. It's just they know so much that isn't so. --Ronald Reagan

boartitz

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Re: Hate Crimes in Auburn
« Reply #38 on: April 30, 2009, 01:57:24 PM »
Maybe Spike's Bamboozled would be more to your liking.
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Saniflush

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Re: Hate Crimes in Auburn
« Reply #39 on: April 30, 2009, 01:59:26 PM »
Maybe Spike's Bamboozled would be more to your liking.

I would contend that like many other self proclaimed rights activists he has gotten rich by encouraging hate and mistrust.
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"Hey my friends are the ones that wanted to eat at that shitty hole in the wall that only served bread and wine.  What kind of brick and mud business model is that.  Stick to the cart if that's all you're going to serve.  Then that dude came in with like 12 other people, and some of them weren't even wearing shoes, and the restaurant sat them right across from us. It was gross, and they were all stinky and dirty.  Then dude starts talking about eating his body and drinking his blood...I almost lost it.  That's the last supper I'll ever have there, and I hope he dies a horrible death."