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This Ought to Make the Libertarians Happy

Tarheel

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Re: This Ought to Make the Libertarians Happy
« Reply #180 on: April 10, 2009, 12:31:47 PM »
He was a good guy, you fuckers would have loved him.....I don't know if he would have ended up pitching for the Tigers, but damn good chance he could have.  He could hurl a horsehide in the high 80's low 90's and was one intimidating mother to look at from homeplate.  He just didn't have the grades to go straight D-1.

Sad loss.  A waste of what could have been a great life.  I think that this story has been repeated all-too-often with alcohol and drug abuse.
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The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me. 
-Ayn Rand

The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.
-The Right Honourable Margaret Thatcher

The government solution to a problem is usually as bad as the problem.
-Milton Friedman

The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'
-Ronald Reagan

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
-Thomas Jefferson

AUChizad

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Re: This Ought to Make the Libertarians Happy
« Reply #181 on: April 10, 2009, 12:50:54 PM »
Well, you're either talking out of your ass right now, or you can't remember what bullshit you say from one post to the next.  Let's review...
I believe that your intention was very clear and meant to convince me that pot use among teens was more than alcohol use is today.  Now, you're backing off that claim.  You posted that...  Not me... :rofl:
There you go again, taking my quotes out of context when you're backed into a corner...

Why not use the whole quote?
Quote
First of all, this is a ridiculous stretch of a doomsday scenario you've presented. BUT if marijuana were actually legalized, you wouldn't be able to get it until you were 21, or AT LEAST 18 (at least 19 in Alabama). MORE kids are smoking marijuana now at a "developmental age" because they can't their hands on alcohol because they can't purchase it from the stores, and there's no (notable) black market for alcohol.
I proclaimed that more kids are smoking marijuana now that is illegal and being sold through 15 year olds growing it in their bedrooms, than if it were legal, regulated, and purchased at the package store. No where did I say that MORE kids are smoking pot than drinking alcohol.
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Saniflush

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Re: This Ought to Make the Libertarians Happy
« Reply #182 on: April 10, 2009, 12:52:27 PM »
I said:

What you said needs a definition from you because you are using it differently depending on which one suits your needs.

So for those of us keeping score at home bust the definition for "direct".

I'll hang up and listen.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2009, 12:53:03 PM by Saniflush »
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"Hey my friends are the ones that wanted to eat at that shitty hole in the wall that only served bread and wine.  What kind of brick and mud business model is that.  Stick to the cart if that's all you're going to serve.  Then that dude came in with like 12 other people, and some of them weren't even wearing shoes, and the restaurant sat them right across from us. It was gross, and they were all stinky and dirty.  Then dude starts talking about eating his body and drinking his blood...I almost lost it.  That's the last supper I'll ever have there, and I hope he dies a horrible death."

GarMan

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Re: This Ought to Make the Libertarians Happy
« Reply #183 on: April 10, 2009, 12:59:37 PM »
You chose the wording not I.  
It seems we're splitting hairs.  What's this?
https://dawninfo.samhsa.gov/files/ME2004/StateMetroProfiles/BostonCambridge.htm
Quote
                  Deaths
               2003  2004
Marijuana    18      7
https://dawninfo.samhsa.gov/files/ME2004/StateMetroProfiles/BuffaloCheektowaga.htm
Quote
                  Deaths
               2003  2004
Marijuana    7       13
https://dawninfo.samhsa.gov/files/ME2004/StateMetroProfiles/ChicagoNaperville.htm
Quote
                  Deaths
                   2004
Marijuana        13
https://dawninfo.samhsa.gov/files/ME2004/StateMetroProfiles/ClevelandElyria.htm
Quote
                  Deaths
               2003  2004
Marijuana     5       4
https://dawninfo.samhsa.gov/files/ME2004/StateMetroProfiles/DenverAurora.htm
Quote
                  Deaths
                   2004
Marijuana        13
https://dawninfo.samhsa.gov/files/ME2004/StateMetroProfiles/DetroitWarren.htm
Quote
                  Deaths
               2003  2004
Marijuana    37     46
https://dawninfo.samhsa.gov/files/ME2004/StateMetroProfiles/HoustonBaytown.htm
Quote
                  Deaths
               2003  2004
Marijuana    15      4
https://dawninfo.samhsa.gov/files/ME2004/StateMetroProfiles/Indianapolis.htm
Quote
                  Deaths
               2003  2004
Marijuana    14     14


OK...  I'm done with this.  If I keep this up, I'll be here all day.  There's about 20 more metro area reports out there with these stats. 

Again, it seems that these pro-legalization claims are not as accurate as some would like to believe. 
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My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them.  - Winston Churchill

Eating and sleeping are the only activities that should be allowed to interrupt a man's enjoyment of his cigar.  - Mark Twain

Nothing says "Obey Me" like a bloody head on a fence post!  - Stewie Griffin

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."  - Ayn Rand

AUChizad

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Re: This Ought to Make the Libertarians Happy
« Reply #184 on: April 10, 2009, 01:17:26 PM »
It seems we're splitting hairs.  What's this?
https://dawninfo.samhsa.gov/files/ME2004/StateMetroProfiles/BostonCambridge.htmhttps://dawninfo.samhsa.gov/files/ME2004/StateMetroProfiles/BuffaloCheektowaga.htmhttps://dawninfo.samhsa.gov/files/ME2004/StateMetroProfiles/ChicagoNaperville.htmhttps://dawninfo.samhsa.gov/files/ME2004/StateMetroProfiles/ClevelandElyria.htmhttps://dawninfo.samhsa.gov/files/ME2004/StateMetroProfiles/DenverAurora.htmhttps://dawninfo.samhsa.gov/files/ME2004/StateMetroProfiles/DetroitWarren.htmhttps://dawninfo.samhsa.gov/files/ME2004/StateMetroProfiles/HoustonBaytown.htmhttps://dawninfo.samhsa.gov/files/ME2004/StateMetroProfiles/Indianapolis.htm

OK...  I'm done with this.  If I keep this up, I'll be here all day.  There's about 20 more metro area reports out there with these stats. 

Again, it seems that these pro-legalization claims are not as accurate as some would like to believe. 
Again with your twisted false data.

You left out a column on all of those. The most important one. SINGLE DRUG DEATHS.

Zero for marijuana for every one of those. Each of those deaths in the part of the chart you showed were where marijuana was present ALONG WITH other substances (most commonly alcohol).
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GarMan

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Re: This Ought to Make the Libertarians Happy
« Reply #185 on: April 10, 2009, 01:22:34 PM »
There you go again, taking my quotes out of context when you're backed into a corner...

Why not use the whole quote? I proclaimed that more kids are smoking marijuana now that is illegal and being sold through 15 year olds growing it in their bedrooms, than if it were legal, regulated, and purchased at the package store. No where did I say that MORE kids are smoking pot than drinking alcohol.
The "whole quote" was irrelevant.  If that were true, why didn't you ever refute my response...
At 16, I found it much easier to get my hands on a bottle of liquor or a 12-pack from Pushpop at the local Kwiki-Mart.  In fact, I purchased my first 12-pack at the ripe old age of 14.  Kids have been swiping bottles from mom and dad's liquor cabinets for years.  It's easy, even today.  Do you really think that kids have experimented or used more marijuana than alcohol? 
And, why did you respond this way without correcting my "mistaken" perception of your statement?
Yes. Things have changed since you grew up. I don't know if you're aware but you have to be 21 to buy alcohol now. Penalties for contributing to minors are serious. For high school kids it is FAR easier to find a 16 year old that grows pot in his room to sell it to you than it is to get someone to go the the store to pick up a 6 pack for you.
You just answered "Yes".  Now, you're trying to say that's not what you meant???   :rofl:
Followed by...
Yes, the legal age was 21 when I was 16 too.  So what?  We still got our hands on it.  Where's the study that shows more kids experiment with MJ than alcohol?  You made the statement.  Let's see some facts. 
You finally came back with that article after additional prodding, but now, you're packpeddling on your original claim.  Now, come on...  Seriously?  I think we all know who is "backed into a corner". :thumbsup:
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My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them.  - Winston Churchill

Eating and sleeping are the only activities that should be allowed to interrupt a man's enjoyment of his cigar.  - Mark Twain

Nothing says "Obey Me" like a bloody head on a fence post!  - Stewie Griffin

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."  - Ayn Rand

GarMan

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Re: This Ought to Make the Libertarians Happy
« Reply #186 on: April 10, 2009, 01:38:28 PM »
Again with your twisted false data.

You left out a column on all of those. The most important one. SINGLE DRUG DEATHS.

Zero for marijuana for every one of those. Each of those deaths in the part of the chart you showed were where marijuana was present ALONG WITH other substances (most commonly alcohol).
Again...  Splitting hairs...  It's interesting to note that alcohol related deaths for your "SINGLE DRUG DEATHS" (the most important one) are also zero in most of those reports, by the way, for your information, just to point that out.   :rofl:

We know that you can't easily overdose on cannabis, but is that the only argument here?  You're the one trying to narrow this down to unreasonable situations and circumstances.  Tell me something.  Of the "handful" of times that you've smoked weed, what were you drinking?  Was it cranberry juice or prune juice?

In the post-mortem, they'd likely find traces of multiple drugs; I'm guessing...   :blink:
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My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them.  - Winston Churchill

Eating and sleeping are the only activities that should be allowed to interrupt a man's enjoyment of his cigar.  - Mark Twain

Nothing says "Obey Me" like a bloody head on a fence post!  - Stewie Griffin

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."  - Ayn Rand

Tarheel

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Re: This Ought to Make the Libertarians Happy
« Reply #187 on: April 10, 2009, 02:01:14 PM »

Is WebMD accurate enough for you?


AUChizad, that is an interesting article; other than this particular article itself, the writer (who is a career medical journalist) has taken a publicly apolitical view of legalization of marijuana.  I think that gives him credibility to write from an objective perspective on the subject of legalization.  I think he's fairly clear and competent and I might also agree with the assertion claimed but, unfortunately, there's still contrary evidence about mortality when using cannabis (see what GarMan posted above). 

And, even the writer states (quoting from his source) that longer term studies are non-existent or nebulous at best. 
Quote
Marijuana users shouldn't cancel their life insurance policies just yet. Sidney warns that longer-term data may indeed show that marijuana smoking eventually raises the risk of premature death.  And if marijuana is legalized, long-term use may become more common.  If this is the case, there certainly will be more long-term effects of marijuana use.

Unlike the writer himself, the doctor (Stephen Sidney, MD) that he cites for a major reference, however, has taken a very public stance for legalization but strictly for medicinal use only; not recreational use.  Here's a link to what ProCon.com says about him: http://medicalmarijuana.procon.org/viewsource.asp?ID=714  Never-the-less he's clearly subjective in his view and I'd expect that subjectivity to be reflected in anything he says.

I think that the jury is still out on whether or not marijuana use causes any deaths (again in the daylight of what GarMan posted above).  Even the European source I quoted yesterday admits that mortality rates in marijuana users are greater than non-users in Portugal.

How about this for a thought?

Using death rates as an argument pro or con on legalization of cannabis is somewhat academic.  It could be argued that using cannabis only affects the user.  But given that the long-term effects data is scientifically (and medically) disputed perhaps this isn't a good basis for either side because if there are long-term health effects (and it is legalized) there will be a cost associated with the health-care for those individuals afflicted.

Who is going to pay for that?  There's no big cannabis company to milk for money (like FedGov did to the Big Tobacco companies in the Tobacco Master Settlement Agreement for health care costs associated with tobacco use).  So that leaves FedGov (and you and me).

That is a big 'if' there but, anyway, I already pay enough taxes.

Has the Libertarian Party made any detailed policy platform on this issue?  I've really been looking into it on their main website but they have no plan stated other than broad legalization/decriminalization which, in my opinion, is a dangerous solution to the problem of drugs in America and is akin to doing brain surgery with a claw hammer. 

Again, I think that Ogre pointed in the right direction with the Portuguese solution.
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The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me. 
-Ayn Rand

The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.
-The Right Honourable Margaret Thatcher

The government solution to a problem is usually as bad as the problem.
-Milton Friedman

The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'
-Ronald Reagan

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
-Thomas Jefferson

AUChizad

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Re: This Ought to Make the Libertarians Happy
« Reply #188 on: April 10, 2009, 02:20:47 PM »
Again...  Splitting hairs...  It's interesting to note that alcohol related deaths for your "SINGLE DRUG DEATHS" (the most important one) are also zero in most of those reports, by the way, for your information, just to point that out.   :rofl:

We know that you can't easily overdose on cannabis, but is that the only argument here?  You're the one trying to narrow this down to unreasonable situations and circumstances.  Tell me something.  Of the "handful" of times that you've smoked weed, what were you drinking?  Was it cranberry juice or prune juice?

In the post-mortem, they'd likely find traces of multiple drugs; I'm guessing...   :blink:
Splitting hairs, my ass. You're acting as if marijuana caused these deaths yet they've NEVER been solely responsible for a death. Only when mixed with substances that HAVE been known to cause deaths ALONE. If you have any kind of ability to apply logic, what does that tell you? And yes, I misspoke earlier when I said "usually alcohol" is what is mixed with marijuana in those deaths. It's usually cocaine. However, while alcohol is zero in many of those links, it IS present in several as well. Marijuana is ZERO for every one.
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Saniflush

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Re: This Ought to Make the Libertarians Happy
« Reply #189 on: April 10, 2009, 02:29:48 PM »
Splitting hairs, my ass. You're acting as if marijuana caused these deaths yet they've NEVER been solely responsible for a death. Only when mixed with substances that HAVE been known to cause deaths ALONE.

You know....mixed with substances like jeeps or ditches.
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"Hey my friends are the ones that wanted to eat at that shitty hole in the wall that only served bread and wine.  What kind of brick and mud business model is that.  Stick to the cart if that's all you're going to serve.  Then that dude came in with like 12 other people, and some of them weren't even wearing shoes, and the restaurant sat them right across from us. It was gross, and they were all stinky and dirty.  Then dude starts talking about eating his body and drinking his blood...I almost lost it.  That's the last supper I'll ever have there, and I hope he dies a horrible death."

AUChizad

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Re: This Ought to Make the Libertarians Happy
« Reply #190 on: April 10, 2009, 02:36:04 PM »
You know....mixed with substances like jeeps or ditches.
You're hung up on the semantics of marijuana directly causing death. To answer your earlier question, to me directly means there was a medical link between marijuana and a person's death.

Yes, I'm sure from time to time people get in accidents that result in death after they've smoked pot. As stated earlier, this number is NOTHING compared to those that drank before getting behind the wheel, and even more minute when we're talking isolated marijuana use vs. isolated alcohol use.
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Tarheel

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Re: This Ought to Make the Libertarians Happy
« Reply #191 on: April 10, 2009, 02:40:31 PM »
Splitting hairs, my ass. You're acting as if marijuana caused these deaths yet they've NEVER been solely responsible for a death. Only when mixed with substances that HAVE been known to cause deaths ALONE. If you have any kind of ability to apply logic, what does that tell you? And yes, I misspoke earlier when I said "usually alcohol" is what is mixed with marijuana in those deaths. It's usually cocaine. However, while alcohol is zero in many of those links, it IS present in several as well. Marijuana is ZERO for every one.

I'm hypothesizing here but I wonder how many of those folk who died from mixing cannabis with other substances started their drug use with just cannabis alone (and/or alcohol and/or cocaine and/or cigarettes)?  Sounds like there's some credible witness to the Gateway Drug theory (to use a friendlier word).
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The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me. 
-Ayn Rand

The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.
-The Right Honourable Margaret Thatcher

The government solution to a problem is usually as bad as the problem.
-Milton Friedman

The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'
-Ronald Reagan

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
-Thomas Jefferson

AUChizad

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Re: This Ought to Make the Libertarians Happy
« Reply #192 on: April 10, 2009, 02:45:29 PM »
I'm hypothesizing here but I wonder how many of those folk who died from mixing cannabis with other substances started their drug use with just cannabis alone (and/or alcohol and/or cocaine and/or cigarettes)?  Sounds like there's some credible witness to the Gateway Drug theory (to use a friendlier word).
I wonder how many of them also ate pork? I wonder how many watched The Price Is Right? I wonder how many had a boating license?

Also, this would support the idea that alcohol is more of a gateway drug if anything as its combined death:single drug death ratio is far larger (in other words more people drink when they do other drugs).
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Saniflush

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Re: This Ought to Make the Libertarians Happy
« Reply #193 on: April 10, 2009, 02:49:44 PM »
Yes, I'm sure from time to time people get in accidents that result in death after they've smoked pot.

I'm not hung up on anything.  Once again, it was your choice of language, not mine.  I am only calling you to task on that point.    Marijuana has been the cause of deaths.
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"Hey my friends are the ones that wanted to eat at that shitty hole in the wall that only served bread and wine.  What kind of brick and mud business model is that.  Stick to the cart if that's all you're going to serve.  Then that dude came in with like 12 other people, and some of them weren't even wearing shoes, and the restaurant sat them right across from us. It was gross, and they were all stinky and dirty.  Then dude starts talking about eating his body and drinking his blood...I almost lost it.  That's the last supper I'll ever have there, and I hope he dies a horrible death."

Tarheel

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Re: This Ought to Make the Libertarians Happy
« Reply #194 on: April 10, 2009, 02:51:05 PM »
You're hung up on the semantics of marijuana directly causing death. To answer your earlier question, to me directly means there was a medical link between marijuana and a person's death.

Yes, I'm sure from time to time people get in accidents that result in death after they've smoked pot. As stated earlier, this number is NOTHING compared to those that drank before getting behind the wheel, and even more minute when we're talking isolated marijuana use vs. isolated alcohol use.

I like that comparative rationale; I guess you can't stop people from driving drunk and, occasionally, killing themselves or others as a result of their irresponsible behavior so why bother trying to stop them from getting high and potentially driving under that influence too (or doing something else equally self-destructive or destructive of others)?

Yes, it should be legalized without constraints immediately!  Let's add it to the mix, you can't keep people from using drugs anyway. (sarcasm)

Madness.  Utter madness.
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The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me. 
-Ayn Rand

The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.
-The Right Honourable Margaret Thatcher

The government solution to a problem is usually as bad as the problem.
-Milton Friedman

The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'
-Ronald Reagan

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
-Thomas Jefferson

Tarheel

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Re: This Ought to Make the Libertarians Happy
« Reply #195 on: April 10, 2009, 02:53:02 PM »
Also, this would support the idea that alcohol is more of a gateway drug if anything as its combined death:single drug death ratio is far larger (in other words more people drink when they do other drugs).

I think that I said about 12,000 posts ago that I think that alcohol is also a gateway drug.
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The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me. 
-Ayn Rand

The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.
-The Right Honourable Margaret Thatcher

The government solution to a problem is usually as bad as the problem.
-Milton Friedman

The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'
-Ronald Reagan

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
-Thomas Jefferson

AUChizad

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Re: This Ought to Make the Libertarians Happy
« Reply #196 on: April 10, 2009, 02:59:20 PM »
I like that comparative rationale; I guess you can't stop people from driving drunk and, occasionally, killing themselves or others as a result of their irresponsible behavior so why bother trying to stop them from getting high and potentially driving under that influence too (or doing something else equally self-destructive or destructive of others)?

Yes, it should be legalized without constraints immediately!  Let's add it to the mix, you can't keep people from using drugs anyway. (sarcasm)

Madness.  Utter madness.
I have never said anything about legalizing "without constraints".

Driving high would be treated the same way you would driving drunk. I have provided statistics showing though that driving high is much less of a problem than driving drunk.

So you make the substance illegal because people can drive high? People can (and far more often do) drive drunk, but you're not suggesting that alcohol should be outright criminalized? Why can you see the difference between responsible drinking and a drunk driver, but not responsible marijuana use versus the far less common "high driver"?
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Tarheel

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Re: This Ought to Make the Libertarians Happy
« Reply #197 on: April 10, 2009, 02:59:53 PM »
I wonder how many of them also ate pork? I wonder how many watched The Price Is Right? I wonder how many had a boating license?

Also, this would support the idea that alcohol is more of a gateway drug if anything as its combined death:single drug death ratio is far larger (in other words more people drink when they do other drugs).

Witty retort to an admitted hypothesis.

As I stated earlier (which you obviously didn't read) I think that arguing this topic using 'death rates' is absolutely useless since there are no indisputable absolutes in this reasoning.
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The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me. 
-Ayn Rand

The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.
-The Right Honourable Margaret Thatcher

The government solution to a problem is usually as bad as the problem.
-Milton Friedman

The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'
-Ronald Reagan

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
-Thomas Jefferson

AUChizad

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Re: This Ought to Make the Libertarians Happy
« Reply #198 on: April 10, 2009, 03:00:26 PM »
I think that I said about 12,000 posts ago that I think that alcohol is also a gateway drug.
So by your logic:
Marijuana is a gateway drug, therefore it should be illegal.
Alcohol is also a gateway drug, likely moreso than marijuana, therefore it should remain legal.

 :blink:
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Saniflush

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Re: This Ought to Make the Libertarians Happy
« Reply #199 on: April 10, 2009, 03:10:50 PM »
So by your logic:
Marijuana is a gateway drug, therefore it should be illegal.
Alcohol is also a gateway drug, likely moreso than marijuana, therefore it should remain legal.

 :blink:

I think we should outlaw ditches and jeeps.
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"Hey my friends are the ones that wanted to eat at that shitty hole in the wall that only served bread and wine.  What kind of brick and mud business model is that.  Stick to the cart if that's all you're going to serve.  Then that dude came in with like 12 other people, and some of them weren't even wearing shoes, and the restaurant sat them right across from us. It was gross, and they were all stinky and dirty.  Then dude starts talking about eating his body and drinking his blood...I almost lost it.  That's the last supper I'll ever have there, and I hope he dies a horrible death."