This Ought to Make the Libertarians Happy

GarMan · « **Reply #100 on:** March 29, 2009, 08:35:11 PM »

Quote from: tiger88 on March 29, 2009, 04:09:49 PM

DUI is not a true victimless crime imo. When someone drives drunk they are endangering the lives of those they encounter on the road. They are risking others lives. It is no different than reckless endangerment which is a crime.

I think you could apply the same logic to both, which is why I don't buy any of the arguments.

Quote from: tiger88 on March 29, 2009, 04:09:49 PM

You seem to need to fallback on the old prisons are full of casual smokers, yet they have a lot of those who supply the need of the casual smoker. If pot were legalized/decriminalized, and regulated the number of people in prison for mj trafficking and such would diminish greatly if not disappear. Also, you neglect the local jail systems. A much higher percent of people are locked up for simple possession there.

Actually, it was your claim throughout this thread. The prisons and jails are supposedly full of poor innocent recreational pot users. You haven't posted one fact or reference to support this, just more soundbites from the pro-pot crowd. You even posted an unreasonable stat claiming that one in six are in jail/prison for MJ related charges. Show us... Prove it... Post it... I believe your position would be a stretch by any imagination... Why wouldn't the smugglers just move to the harder stuff? Why wouldn't they move to those varieties that would likely be regulated out of legality such as Purple Haze and those Jamaican varieties? I just don't see how this would work. And, why stop at pot legalization?

Quote from: tiger88 on March 29, 2009, 04:09:49 PM

The effect of white sugar on society is devestating and the effects can't be fully measured. It is refined in a very similar way to some drugs. I may post some articles on that.

This is why the pro-cannabis crowd loses credibility when trying to debate the topic. Now, we're going after sugar... It's just a stretch on my part, but I don't think sugar has any comparable chemical influence or affect on the brain, especially when compared to pot.

Quote from: tiger88 on March 29, 2009, 03:56:07 PM

Cigars and cigarettes should be illegal. They are costing the medical system in this country way too much money. People can't seem to quit smoking them despite the fact they know of the tremendously elevated cancer risks. It's like nicotine is a powerful and addictive drug or something.

I hope that obama does the right things and makes them illegal. It is for the good of society.

You'd be stretching to even more ridiculous extremes to suggest cigars are anything like cigarettes, and comparing any sort of tobacco to cannabis makes about as much sense as bringing sugar into the discussion.

CCTAU · « **Reply #101 on:** March 30, 2009, 12:29:14 AM »

Actually it was the paper and the oil companies that went after mj. More specifically hemp.

And the pure cane brown sugar is better for you.

But no one is addressing the issue of pure cost to taxpayers for combating a drug that really just needs regulation.

tiger88 · « **Reply #102 on:** March 30, 2009, 02:46:17 PM »

Quote from: GarMan on March 29, 2009, 08:35:11 PM

I think you could apply the same logic to both, which is why I don't buy any of the arguments.

What exactly are saying? A person sitting at home smoking pot is not endangering anyone except arguably themselves. People who drive under the influence are, without question, endangering others, especially if it is alcohol or prescription drugs they are influenced by.

Quote

Actually, it was your claim throughout this thread. The prisons and jails are supposedly full of poor innocent recreational pot users. You haven't posted one fact or reference to support this, just more soundbites from the pro-pot crowd. You even posted an unreasonable stat claiming that one in six are in jail/prison for MJ related charges. Show us... Prove it... Post it... I believe your position would be a stretch by any imagination... Why wouldn't the smugglers just move to the harder stuff? Why wouldn't they move to those varieties that would likely be regulated out of legality such as Purple Haze and those Jamaican varieties? I just don't see how this would work. And, why stop at pot legalization?

The stats are hard to find by googling. I will look again when I have more time. I did post stats from the fbi proving that 40% of people arrested for drugs are arrested for possession of mj, while only 5 or 6 % are arrested for distributing pot. I challenge you to find solid stats that support your cause on the numbers. Not just federal pen numbers but local and state prisons too.

I don't really give a freak what mj smugglers do if they can't make their money that way. It's just not a concern of mine. They could move on to super breeds but the market would be diminished. Most people I know/knew would be okay with buying the legal stuff and imo if it is legalized you should also have the option to grow personal use amounts at home.

Why stop at pot? Pot would be enough for me. Not saying others couldn't be legalized, but there are some I wouldn't be for like meth.

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This is why the pro-cannabis crowd loses credibility when trying to debate the topic. Now, we're going after sugar... It's just a stretch on my part, but I don't think sugar has any comparable chemical influence or affect on the brain, especially when compared to pot.

You obviously don't know anyone who has ever quit sugar cold turkey. Seriously, it is like coming off of a drug. However, the biggest damaging effect sugar has on society is health related and the amount of money it costs the medical system is huge compared to any effect pot has.

[/quote]You'd be stretching to even more ridiculous extremes to suggest cigars are anything like cigarettes, and comparing any sort of tobacco to cannabis makes about as much sense as bringing sugar into the discussion. [/quote]

The effect cigarette/cigar smoking has on society is billions in healthcare costs per year. There are millions of people who want these evil vices illegalized for the good of society.

ggraf71 · « **Reply #103 on:** March 30, 2009, 09:54:00 PM »

Can anybody give me the Cliff's Notes version? I just smoked a dime and all this reading is killing my high.

Jumbo · « **Reply #104 on:** March 31, 2009, 02:31:26 AM »

Quote from: ggraf71 on March 30, 2009, 09:54:00 PM

Can anybody give me the Cliff's Notes version? I just smoked a dime and all this reading is killing my high.

Smokin is bad, Mmmkay.

AUChizad · « **Reply #105 on:** March 31, 2009, 10:13:15 AM »

Quote from: Jumbo on March 31, 2009, 02:31:26 AM

Smokin is bad, Mmmkay.

Followed by "No it's really not."

Followed by Garman saying "Yeah it is cause I said so. Everyone who has ever smoked pot is a burnout loser who can't compete in the real world with their peers"

Followed by specific real world examples of people who shatter that stereotype.

Followed by GarMan mocking these specific examples as my "role models", as if they were not presented specifically to disprove his point, as well as demanding facts be presented to prove that marijuana is less harmful than alcohol as if they didn't exist.

Facts were presented that prove that marijuana is less harmful than alcohol.

From this point on, GarMan has declared that comparing marijuana to alcohol is a fallacy that has no place in the argument.

Now, however, it is ok to to not only compare, but equate casual marijuana use with DRIVING UNDER THE INFLUENCE. You can't compare one substance to the other, but you can say something nonsensical like smoking at home on your couch is as dangerous to yourself and others as driving the streets drunk out of your mind, and use this statement completely devoid of fact or logic to compare the fairness of the law as it applies to both "crimes". Similar to how he equated getting fired for having thc in your blood from being drug tested after using weeks ago to showing up to work drunk as piss and reeking of alochol (instead of comparing that to showing up to work blitzed out of your mind).

I became tired of his uninformed and insanely illogical comments and comparisons, and dropped out of the conversation eight pages later.

tiger88 picked up the baton and GarMan is still ignoring any fact or logic and spouting off his insane ramblings.

Ok, I think you're all caught up now.

tiger88 · « **Reply #106 on:** March 31, 2009, 11:31:10 AM »

If I don't quit this thread I may need to start smoking again, lol.

Saniflush · « **Reply #107 on:** March 31, 2009, 12:59:32 PM »

Quote from: tiger88 on March 31, 2009, 11:31:10 AM

If I don't quit this thread I may need to start smoking again, lol.

Me too.

Signed,
Ashley Biden

http://primebuzz.kcstar.com/?q=node/17872

Thrilla · « **Reply #108 on:** March 31, 2009, 01:03:41 PM »

Quote from: tiger88 on March 31, 2009, 11:31:10 AM

If I don't quit this thread I may need to start smoking again, lol.

I'll have some ready for you. You must be rewarded for you efforts.

Snaggletiger · « **Reply #109 on:** March 31, 2009, 01:52:40 PM »

Quote from: Thrilla on March 31, 2009, 01:03:41 PM

I'll have some ready for you. You must be rewarded for you efforts.

Uumm..what time were you guys meeting? This scumbag lie-yer needs a break.

AUChizad · « **Reply #110 on:** April 01, 2009, 06:10:28 PM »

Well, GarMan, you and Obama agree. How does that sit with you?

I like how he said "I don't know what this says about the online audience..."

First of all, way to sound like the fuddy-duddy people accused McCain of being. "Those blasted intarwebz!"

How about it says that when people have any degree of anonymity, they feel strongly that marijuana should be legalized?

AUChizad · « **Reply #111 on:** April 03, 2009, 09:55:31 AM »

Quote from: Tarheel on March 27, 2009, 06:40:41 PM

After having read yesterday what I think to be the most ignorant, puerile, and intellectually-limited comment that I've ever read in The SGA (by what I take to be a ~~libertarian~~ pothead writing without the encumbrance of the thought process) on this very subject

Rather than drag this topic all over the SGA forums, I will keep this discussion where it belongs.

How about refuting whatever it is that was said in the related thread instead of vaguely calling the poster out without actually coming out and taking a stance against it?

And yes, everyone who wants government out of their lives are potheads. Resort to name-calling when you can't win an argument... Only you and the other party line towing parrot hold this particular opinion. As much as you'd like to believe that we're a small faction of burned out hippies (thus your need to keep repeating it in hopes that if you say it enough it will become truth), the truth is I can count on one hand the number of times I have indulged in the "devil's plant", and the first time was where it was legal (Amsterdam). It is possible to have independent thought and not feel that every law should suit your personal preference...

Tarheel · « **Reply #112 on:** April 03, 2009, 10:43:08 AM »

Quote from: AUChizad on April 03, 2009, 09:55:31 AM

Rather than drag this topic all over the SGA forums, I will keep this discussion where it belongs.

How about refuting whatever it is that was said in the related thread instead of vaguely calling the poster out without actually coming out and taking a stance against it?

And yes, everyone who wants government out of their lives are potheads. Resort to name-calling when you can't win an argument... Only you and the other party line towing parrot hold this particular opinion. As much as you'd like to believe that we're a small faction of burned out hippies (thus your need to keep repeating it in hopes that if you say it enough it will become truth), the truth is I can count on one hand the number of times I have indulged in the "devil's plant", and the first time was where it was legal (Amsterdam). It is possible to have independent thought and not feel that every law should suit your personal preference...

Obviously all of that pot has destroyed your sense of humor. As GarMan has pointed out numerous times "put the bong down."

Maybe you'll be able to see past the fucking roach clip and look at real science and facts (which have been stated and restated and restated ad nauseum on this thread) instead of false arguments by simple comparison. Your own bias on MJ has blinded you to any reasonable arguments past the tired mantra of comparison to alcohol. It is weak and GarMan has pointed that out to no avail.

So why bother. Tell it to your congressman or senator if you want it legalized...I'm sure Jeff Sessions and Richard Shelby will listen.

And, unlike some on this board, I try to make an effort NOT to personally insult someone except only in good sport or in jest.

Saniflush · « **Reply #113 on:** April 03, 2009, 10:51:40 AM »

Quote from: Tarheel on April 03, 2009, 10:43:08 AM

And, unlike some on this board, I try to make an effort NOT to personally insult someone except only in good sport or in jest.

Fuck your couch.

Tarheel · « **Reply #114 on:** April 03, 2009, 11:00:53 AM »

Quote from: Saniflush on April 03, 2009, 10:51:40 AM

Fuck your couch.

I take that in obvious jest but just to make it clear (through the fog of MJ smoke in here) the person that I was referring to was the person that I quoted.

AUChizad · « **Reply #115 on:** April 03, 2009, 11:18:53 AM »

Quote from: Tarheel on April 03, 2009, 10:43:08 AM

Obviously all of that pot has destroyed your sense of humor. As GarMan has pointed out numerous times "put the bong down."

Of all things to accuse marijuana of doing, destroying a sense of humor? Virtually every comedian in the history of...Oh I see...That was another joke.

Quote

Maybe you'll be able to see past the fucking roach clip and look at real science and facts (which have been stated and restated and restated ad nauseum on this thread) instead of false arguments by simple comparison. Your own bias on MJ has blinded you to any reasonable arguments past the tired mantra of comparison to alcohol. It is weak and GarMan has pointed that out to no avail.

1. I'm not a pothead. I have indulged in marijuana far less than the national average.
2. GarMan found ONE study that warns of the dangers of marijuana in adolescence. Well, no shit, it would remain illegal for the underaged, just like alcohol. I have presented MULTIPLE studies that show the medical benefits as well as the relative safety of the drug, as well as statistics on the stress this victimless crime is putting on the prison system.
4. It is insane to me that you feel that the comparison to alcohol is a "false argument." It's THE argument. You know that as well as I do, but must pretend as if it's not because it is so completely a losing argument. They are both recreational drugs with the same use and the same effect. They ARE COMPARABLE IN EVERY WAY. To try to separate them from each other in this debate is the fallacy. Virtually every harmful affect of marijuana is more prevalent with alcohol. Armed with knowledge on the subject, you MUST conclude either A) Marijuana should be legal or B) Alcohol should be illegal.
5. Again, what you've failed to comprehend is that I HAVE no bias on MJ, as I do not come anywhere near what could be considered a regular partaking in its use.

Quote

And, unlike some on this board, I try to make an effort NOT to personally insult someone except only in good sport or in jest.

So when you do it, it's in good sport or in jest. When I do it, it's pure malice.
Got it.

I still never saw what you feel was "the most ignorant, puerile, and intellectually-limited comment" you've ever heard...

GarMan · « **Reply #116 on:** April 03, 2009, 12:18:06 PM »

Quote from: tiger88 on March 30, 2009, 02:46:17 PM

What exactly are saying? A person sitting at home smoking pot is not endangering anyone except arguably themselves. People who drive under the influence are, without question, endangering others, especially if it is alcohol or prescription drugs they are influenced by.

Or, the bong they just hit...

Quote from: tiger88 on March 30, 2009, 02:46:17 PM

The stats are hard to find by googling. I will look again when I have more time. I did post stats from the fbi proving that 40% of people arrested for drugs are arrested for possession of mj, while only 5 or 6 % are arrested for distributing pot. I challenge you to find solid stats that support your cause on the numbers. Not just federal pen numbers but local and state prisons too.

This makes no sense... You're the one arguing for legalization with wild-assed claims that you can't seem to prove with reference-able facts. Why do I need to look this up? You made the assertion. Prove it! That's all. Making an opinionated statement without facts to back it up is ridiculous.

Quote from: tiger88 on March 30, 2009, 02:46:17 PM

I don't really give a freak what mj smugglers do if they can't make their money that way. It's just not a concern of mine. They could move on to super breeds but the market would be diminished. Most people I know/knew would be okay with buying the legal stuff and imo if it is legalized you should also have the option to grow personal use amounts at home.

Let's try this again... If you're a criminal with an infrastructure that supports the distribution and sale of MJ, what makes you believe that the legalization of MJ will stop the criminal from performing criminal activities? Why wouldn't the criminal just move to cocaine, meth or other illegal narcotics?

Quote from: tiger88 on March 30, 2009, 02:46:17 PM

Why stop at pot? Pot would be enough for me. Not saying others couldn't be legalized, but there are some I wouldn't be for like meth.

Again, this makes no sense. Why stop at pot? If the war on drugs is such a waste, why not legalize everything?

Quote from: tiger88 on March 30, 2009, 02:46:17 PM

You obviously don't know anyone who has ever quit sugar cold turkey. Seriously, it is like coming off of a drug. However, the biggest damaging effect sugar has on society is health related and the amount of money it costs the medical system is huge compared to any effect pot has.

I could also argue the affect of pot on the fuel efficiency of Mack trucks is negligible compared to the impact that sugar bares on the industry, but that has no value to this discussion... Neither does sugar...

I see we need another online tutorial on how to use the Quote function...

Quote from: tiger88 on March 30, 2009, 02:46:17 PM

The effect cigarette/cigar smoking has on society is billions in healthcare costs per year. There are millions of people who want these evil vices illegalized for the good of society.

Why stop there? Saturated fats are bad too! If pot was already legal, I would likely not argue for making it illegal. Along the same lines, I would not argue for the illegalization of tobacco or alcohol because pot is illegal. There's no logic to any of those arguments. But, I'm still going to enjoy some lead-based paint chips with my cigar tonight. :thumbsup:

AUChizad · « **Reply #117 on:** April 03, 2009, 12:43:59 PM »

Quote from: GarMan on April 03, 2009, 12:18:06 PM

Again, this makes no sense. Why stop at pot? If the war on drugs is such a waste, why not legalize everything?

Because, SOME drugs are in fact harmful. SOME are addicting. Marijuana is not one of those. A substantial percentage of Americans smoke pot and stop there, despite your gateway drug fallacy. I personally drink at least three nights a week, smoke cigars on rare occasion, have smoked marijuana few enough times to count on one hand, and have never partaken in any other recreation drug (including cigarettes) in my life. To say that I'm biased toward MJ over alcohol is a complete and utter joke.

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I could also argue the affect of pot on the fuel efficiency of Mack trucks is negligible compared to the impact that sugar bares on the industry, but that has no value to this discussion... Neither does sugar...

It is ridiculous, isn't it? He used it as an illustration on how ridiculous your accusations against marijuana are. You guys didn't do so well on the comparison/contrast portion of the SAT's did you?

Quote

Why stop there? Saturated fats are bad too! If pot was already legal, I would likely not argue for making it illegal. Along the same lines, I would not argue for the illegalization of tobacco or alcohol because pot is illegal. There's no logic to any of those arguments. But, I'm still going to enjoy some lead-based paint chips with my cigar tonight. :thumbsup:

You can agree that something like saturated fats are similarly as harmful as marijuana, yet you still are so adamant about it remaining illegal... So your whole thing is "Every law is perfect, and shouldn't be questioned." Pot's illegal now (we've been over exactly why that is, not rehashing), so it's bad. Alcohol is legal now, so it's good. Again, in 1930 you would have been a staunch prohibitionist, clearly.

Ogre · « **Reply #118 on:** April 03, 2009, 12:50:37 PM »

Here is an article with some crime statistics for marijuana users. Of course, it comes from the NORML website, so I'm sure that immediately discredits it in some people's eyes.

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Our country's war on drugs places great emphasis on arresting people for smoking marijuana. In the last decade, 6.5 million Americans have been arrested on marijuana charges, a greater number than the entire populations of Alaska, Delaware, the District of Columbia, Montana, North Dakota, South Dakota, Vermont and Wyoming combined. In 2006, state and local law enforcement arrested 829,625 people for marijuana violations. Annual marijuana arrests have nearly tripled since the early 1990s, and is the highest number ever recorded by the FBI.

As has been the case throughout the 1990s, the overwhelming majority of those charged with marijuana violations in 2006 -- 738,915 Americans (89 %) -- were for simple possession. The remaining 90,710 individuals were for "sale/manufacture", an FBI category which includes marijuana grown for personal use or purely medical purposes. These new FBI statistics indicate that one marijuana smoker is arrested every 38 seconds in America. Taken together, the total number of marijuana arrests for 2006 far exceeded the combined number of arrests for violent crimes, including murder, manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery and aggravated assault.

Like most Americans, people who smoke marijuana also pay taxes, love and support their families, and work hard to make a better life for their children. Suddenly they are arrested, jailed and treated like criminals solely because of their recreational drug of choice. State agencies frequently step in and declare children of marijuana smokers to be "in danger", and many children are placed into foster homes as a result. This causes enormous pain, suffering and financial hardship for millions of American families. It also engenders distrust and disrespect for the law and for the criminal justice system overall. Responsible marijuana smokers present no threat or danger to America or its children, and there is no reason to treat them as criminals, or to take their children away. As a society we need to find ways to discourage personal conduct of all kinds that is abusive or harmful to others. Responsible marijuana smokers are not the problem and it is time to stop arresting them.

The ultimate goal of NORML and The NORML Foundation is to end the criminal prohibition of marijuana. We do not believe otherwise law-abiding citizens who smoke marijuana should be arrested and treated like criminals. Adults should be permitted to smoke marijuana in private. Federal prohibition of marijuana should be abolished and the states should be encouraged to experiment with different models of decriminalization.

GarMan · « **Reply #119 on:** April 03, 2009, 01:03:03 PM »

Corrections below...

Quote from: AUChizad (The brilliant hit-and-run-poster and "founding" moderator who flexes his massive e-penis to those he disagrees with.) on March 31, 2009, 10:13:15 AM

Followed by "No it's really not."

Followed by Garman saying "Yeah it is cause ~~I said~~ the science says so. ~~Everyone~~ Those who ~~has ever~~ typically smoked pot ~~is a burnout loser who can't~~ don't compete in the real world on par with their peers. <Followed by links to articles referencing studies showing increased incidence of mental illness and learning deficiencies among MJ users>"

Followed by specific real world examples of ~~people~~ students, a swimmer, an actor and others who ~~shatter~~ are either nuetral or have proven that stereotype to some degree.

Followed by GarMan mocking these specific examples as my "role models", showing examples of how they're not exactly mental giants or super-geniuses, as if they were not presented specifically to disprove his point, as well as demanding facts be presented to prove that marijuana is safe ~~less harmful than alcohol~~ as if they didn't exist.

Drive-by moderator flexes his e-penis and after much debate inserts alcohol into the discussion and presents Facts ~~were presented~~ that prove that marijuana is less harmful than alcohol, and running out in front of cars and playing with tigers and bears and swimming with sting rays and biting the heads off Cobras.

From this point on, GarMan has declared that comparing marijuana to alcohol is a fallacy that has no place in the argument because it doesn't.

Now, however, it is ok to to not only compare, but equate casual marijuana use with DRIVING UNDER THE INFLUENCE. You can't compare one substance to the other, but you can say something nonsensical like smoking at home on your couch is as dangerous to yourself and others as driving the streets drunk out of your mind, and use this statement completely devoid of fact or logic to compare the fairness of the law as it applies to both "crimes". Of course, Garman has never posted any of that, but he continues to mock us pot-heads as we bring up these wild-assed claims to support our pro-legalization argument. Similar to how he equated getting fired for having thc in your blood from being drug tested after using weeks ago to showing up to work drunk as piss and reeking of alochol (instead of comparing that to showing up to work blitzed out of your mind). Of course, he never really stated that either, but it's fun to push this to silly-assed extremes in between bong hits and play (or maybe not playing) stupid with our half-witted arguments.

I became tired of ~~his uninformed and insanely illogical~~ him always demanding facts to prove my position comments and mocking comparisons, and dropped out (hit and run) of the conversation on the sixth page~~eight pages later~~.

tiger88 picked up the baton in between his bong hits and GarMan is still ~~ignoring any~~ requesting facts or logic and spouting off his ~~insane~~ mocking ramblings.

Ok, I think you're all caught up now.