This Ought to Make the Libertarians Happy

[Tarheel]

It looks like The ONE's administration is lifting the restrictions on (and blatant harassment of) innocent 'medicinal marijuana' dealers that were put in place by the evil, ultra-right-wing, super-religious, mega-Republican Bush administration (said with vitriolic hatred and disdain)!  Big surprise that there's few details on the 'changed' policy.  That seems to be par for the course with this crowd.  Of course they're still going to prosecute those dealers who falsely claim to be medicinal marijuana distributors.  How do you tell the difference?!

I guess that The ONE and AG Holder DID inhale!

Excerpt from the Times Online, any emphasis is my own:

Obama Administration to Stop Raids on Medical Marijuana Dispensers
By DAVID JOHNSTON and NEIL A. LEWIS
Published: March 18, 2009

WASHINGTON — Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. on Wednesday outlined a shift in the enforcement of federal drug laws, saying the administration would effectively end the Bush administration’s frequent raids on distributors of medical marijuana.

Speaking with reporters, Mr. Holder provided few specifics but said the Justice Department’s enforcement policy would now be restricted to traffickers who falsely masqueraded as medical dispensaries and “use medical marijuana laws as a shield.”

In the Bush administration, federal agents raided medical marijuana distributors that violated federal statutes even if the dispensaries appeared to be complying with state laws. The raids produced a flood of complaints, particularly in California, which in 1996 became the first state to legalize marijuana sales to people with doctors’ prescriptions.

Graham Boyd, the director of the American Civil Liberties Union drug law project, said Mr. Holder’s remarks created a reasonable balance between conflicting state and federal laws and “seem to finally end the policy war over medical marijuana.” He said officials in California and the 12 other states that have authorized the use of medical marijuana had hesitated to adopt regulations to carry out their laws because of uncertainty created by the Bush administration.

Mr. Holder said the new approach was consistent with statements made by President Obama in the campaign
...

I can't wait until they legalize LSD and crack for medicinal purposes.  What a happier world this will be...

Here's the rest of this rubbish:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/19/us/19holder.html?bl&ex=1237608000&en=ed559a97685bac75&ei=5087%0A

[Pell City Tiger]

The way this administration is fucking my beloved country, we are all going to need heavy drugs. Lord knows smoking a joint will soon be cheaper than smoking a cigar.

[Ogre]

This is a good start, but I would still prefer it be legalized and regulated similar to alcohol and tobacco. 

[Tarheel]

This is a good start, but I would still prefer it be legalized and regulated similar to alcohol and tobacco. 

They'll tax the hell out of it too should it possibly be removed from Schedule I of the Controlled Substance law (along with LSD, Heroin, and an assortment of other 'cocktails').  I've always had a preference for narcotic alkaloids myself...and fine tobacco.

Well, the way FedGov is spending money they'll need some new revenue streams, eh?

[Ogre]

They'll tax the hell out of it too should it possibly be removed from Schedule I of the Controlled Substance law (along with LSD, Heroin, and an assortment of other 'cocktails').  I've always had a preference for narcotic alkaloids myself...and fine tobacco.

Well, the way FedGov is spending money they'll need some new revenue streams, eh?

If it means that I won't lose my job for using an illegal substance, and I won't get arrested for carrying it on my person, then tax the hell out of it for all I care. 

[CCTAU]

I don't give a shit what you losers smoke as long as you stay off the road. It's none of my business what you put in your mouth as long as it doesn't affect society. And don't publish any photos either. <insert neil and bob emoticon here>

[Tarheel]

I don't give a shit what you losers smoke as long as you stay off the road. It's none of my business what you put in your mouth as long as it doesn't affect society. And don't publish any photos either. <insert neil and bob emoticon here>

I do smoke occasionally while making my 45 minute plus commute in the mornings and evenings...but only fine adult tobacco products.

[Ogre]

I do smoke occasionally while making my 45 minute plus commute in the mornings and evenings...but only fine adult tobacco products poles.

Fixed.

[AUChizad]

Of course they're still going to prosecute those dealers who falsely claim to be medicinal marijuana distributors.  How do you tell the difference?!

Um, the ones that don't have a license?

I can't wait until they legalize LSD and crack for medicinal purposes.  What a happier world this will be...

The slippery slope fallacy. You (and most super-Republicans) are a huge fan of that one. Go to Amsterdam and try to use LSD or crack and see how seriously they take their drug laws when pertaining to those substances.

I'm personally not nearly the smoker that Ogre is. I never tried it once until I vacationed in Amsterdam AFTER college (and that'd be like going to Italy and not trying the pasta).

The fact is marijuana is the LEAST harmful of the narcotics, alcohol included. And I love me some alcohol. FAR prefer it to marijuana. When have you ever heard of someone OD'ing on marijuana? You haven't, because you can't. Alcohol, on the other hand...And CCTAU brings up a good point. How many deaths have you heard of from smoking weed and driving, vs. drinking and driving?
How many bar fights have broken out due to alcoholic rages? Meanwhile, when people smoke pot they sit on the couch watching cartoons. Potheads are a happy peaceful people, that's for sure.

They'll tax the hell out of it too should it possibly be removed from Schedule I of the Controlled Substance law (along with LSD, Heroin, and an assortment of other 'cocktails').  I've always had a preference for narcotic alkaloids myself...and fine tobacco.

Well, the way FedGov is spending money they'll need some new revenue streams, eh?

I know you meant that sarcastically, but you're absolutely right. I'd much rather fund the government this way, than fund crime which is what we're doing now. We tried that with prohibition. Didn't work out so well.

[Saniflush]

We tried that with prohibition. Didn't work out so well.

Worked out fine for some.  We knew how to produce our own.  Fuck the rest of them.

[Ogre]

Not only would regulating and taxing it make for a new stream of cash flowing in, but also think about the millions (if not billions) of dollars spent on people in prison solely for distribution or possession of MJ.  With the massive gubment growth bill that Obama put through, it sure wouldn't hurt to find a place to cut spending, and this is one the left would actually embrace.

[AUChizad]

Not only would regulating and taxing it make for a new stream of cash flowing in, but also think about the millions (if not billions) of dollars spent on people in prison solely for distribution or possession of MJ.  With the massive gubment growth bill that Obama put through, it sure wouldn't hurt to find a place to cut spending, and this is one the left would actually embrace.

Exactly. Make room for the rapists and murderers. I'm quite alright with the potheads "roaming the streets". As I said, they'll more likely be roaming their living room.

[Tarheel]

Um, the ones that don't have a license?
The slippery slope fallacy. You (and most super-Republicans) are a huge fan of that one. Go to Amsterdam and try to use LSD or crack and see how seriously they take their drug laws when pertaining to those substances.

I'm personally not nearly the smoker that Ogre is. I never tried it once until I vacationed in Amsterdam AFTER college (and that'd be like going to Italy and not trying the pasta).

The fact is marijuana is the LEAST harmful of the narcotics, alcohol included. And I love me some alcohol. FAR prefer it to marijuana. When have you ever heard of someone OD'ing on marijuana? You haven't, because you can't. Alcohol, on the other hand...And CCTAU brings up a good point. How many deaths have you heard of from smoking weed and driving, vs. drinking and driving?
How many bar fights have broken out due to alcoholic rages? Meanwhile, when people smoke pot they sit on the couch watching cartoons. Potheads are a happy peaceful people, that's for sure.I know you meant that sarcastically, but you're absolutely right. I'd much rather fund the government this way, than fund crime which is what we're doing now. We tried that with prohibition. Didn't work out so well.

Didn't know (nor do I care) about the 'license' to distribute 'medicinal' MJ.  Ridiculous...but I do know of a couple of folk who use it for 'pain' because it's 'more natural'.  There are much better natural narcotics that are legally obtained from a real doctor that are used with professional supervision.

I always get a kick out of reading the circuitous rationalizations that you guys use for legalizing this substance.

So I suppose that alcohol should be listed as a Schedule I controlled substance and MJ should be legalized...brilliant.

[Thrilla]

Didn't know (nor do I care) about the 'license' to distribute 'medicinal' MJ.  Ridiculous...but I do know of a couple of folk who use it for 'pain' because it's 'more natural'.  There are much better natural narcotics that are legally obtained from a real doctor that are used with professional supervision.

I always get a kick out of reading the circuitous rationalizations that you guys use for legalizing this substance.

So I suppose that alcohol should be listed as a Schedule I controlled substance and MJ should be legalized...brilliant.

I'd like to understand your hatred for the legalization of this drug.  Those that partake know that it is quite possibly one of the most harmless drugs you can put into your system.  Sure, you're fucking up your lungs/throat/mouth with each puff, but how is this any different than the adult tobacco products that you and I enjoy?  As Chizad stated, it's impossible to OD and die from this substance.  Brain cells?  Yeah, they take a hit to, but it's no different of a hit then when you have a few whiskey drinks.

So this is a good start.  California, as much as you hate to hear it, has paved the way and shown how this industry brings millions back into the economy.  Now, their governor has fucked up the usage of this money and the State has huge budget deficits, but that instance is separate from the money pot brings into the state.  There, they are able to peacefully distribute marijuana for those that need it, and profit from it!  It's a form of capitalism, like it or not.

If it can bring more money into the economy and free up room in jail for the real criminals, then why not be all for it?

[Tarheel]

I'd like to understand your hatred for the legalization of this drug.  Those that partake know that it is quite possibly one of the most harmless drugs you can put into your system.  Sure, you're fucking up your lungs/throat/mouth with each puff, but how is this any different than the adult tobacco products that you and I enjoy?  As Chizad stated, it's impossible to OD and die from this substance.  Brain cells?  Yeah, they take a hit to, but it's no different of a hit then when you have a few whiskey drinks.

So this is a good start.  California, as much as you hate to hear it, has paved the way and shown how this industry brings millions back into the economy.  Now, their governor has fucked up the usage of this money and the State has huge budget deficits, but that instance is separate from the money pot brings into the state.  There, they are able to peacefully distribute marijuana for those that need it, and profit from it!  It's a form of capitalism, like it or not.

If it can bring more money into the economy and free up room in jail for the real criminals, then why not be all for it?

We can go round and round on this subject but I do prescribe to it being a gateway drug.  Y'all libertarians disagree.  There's plenty of testimonial, analogical, and statistical evidence to the otherwise.

There are obvious negative effects of the ingestion of THC in humans and test mammals alike.  I've heard all of the arguments for it being OK and you aren't going to convince me otherwise; that is that it's really 'good' for you. 

The only positive attribute that it may have is effects against pain but that evidence is sketchy, arguable, and mostly anecdotal from what I've read...as I wrote earlier if that's what one needs then there are better narcotics that can be obtained from and monitored by a real doctor.

The simplest scientific fact is that THC is produced in plants as a self-defense against herbivores...why would I want to ingest this chemical for any reason especially for recreation?

[Thrilla]

We can go round and round on this subject but I do prescribe to it being a gateway drug.  Y'all libertarians disagree.  There's plenty of testimonial, analogical, and statistical evidence to the otherwise.

There are obvious negative effects of the ingestion of THC in humans and test mammals alike.  I've heard all of the arguments for it being OK and you aren't going to convince me otherwise; that is that it's really 'good' for you. 

The only positive attribute that it may have is effects against pain but that evidence is sketchy, arguable, and mostly anecdotal from what I've read...as I wrote earlier if that's what one needs then there are better narcotics that can be obtained from and monitored by a real doctor.

The simplest scientific fact is that THC is produced in plants as a self-defense against herbivores...why would I want to ingest this chemical for any reason especially for recreation?

I will never say it's good for you.  And I'm not a libertarian.  And it's fun to go round and round.

A gateway drug...yes, when used by humans who have no self control over their addictions.  Sex with my wife is good, but I'm able to control my desire to have sex with other women because I have self control.  and believe me, I want to have sex with other women.  Each and every instance of marijuana being a gateway drug is from a human who can either consciously or, perhaps, genetically, not control themselves.  There are just as many folks who use marijuana, and only marijuana, as there are those who have it become a gateway drug for themselves.

As for the last question...why would you put nicotine into your body?  It's an alkaloid found in plants, and it's been scientifically proven to be one of the top addictive drugs in our country.  But you still do it, for recreation.  There's no difference, save for that nicotine is WAY more addictive than marijuana.

[Tarheel]

I will never say it's good for you.  And I'm not a libertarian.  And it's fun to go round and round.

A gateway drug...yes, when used by humans who have no self control over their addictions.  Sex with my wife is good, but I'm able to control my desire to have sex with other women because I have self control.  and believe me, I want to have sex with other women.  Each and every instance of marijuana being a gateway drug is from a human who can either consciously or, perhaps, genetically, not control themselves.  There are just as many folks who use marijuana, and only marijuana, as there are those who have it become a gateway drug for themselves.

As for the last question...why would you put nicotine into your body?  It's an alkaloid found in plants, and it's been scientifically proven to be one of the top addictive drugs in our country.  But you still do it, for recreation.  There's no difference, save for that nicotine is WAY more addictive than marijuana.

Yes, indeed, it's fun to go round and round.

I think that you are right about nicotine (and caffeine and alcohol) for that matter.  That citation is, quite frankly, an argument in favor of all of them being gateway drugs (including MJ).  Perhaps it starts with one of these then progresses on to other 'safe' drugs from there.  Study after study has shown that the use of these drugs leads to the use of other drugs and substances.  It really boils down to nicotine, caffeine, alcohol, and MJ not really being 'safe' at all so an argument by comparison is pointless.  Sometimes I wonder why all of them are not MORE tightly controlled and regulated but then I realize that would fuck up FedGov's revenue stream wouldn't it?

Yes, at some point self-control does have to take over but its against our basest instincts in this regard I think; once you get going on one you start to need more and more.  I know you and others will cringe when I use this term but it really is a 'slippery slope'.  Not implying anything but I'm happy for you if you were able to 'stop' graduating yourself.  I too have been able to do that by not 'graduating' to MJ at all even though its 'safer' than caffeine as many pot-heads would argue.

You asked earlier why I have a 'hatred', as you call it, of this substance.  Anecdotal as it is, I've seen first hand what it can do to people's lives in the lives of two people in my family (one, of whom, is no longer with us); which proves to me first-hand what scientific studies have shown about the effects of MJ.  So don't even start to evangelize to me how 'safe' it is to use.

Well, anyway, on a happier note, to quote from a friend, 'I think we have a hippie infestation problem here in the X'.

[Thrilla]

Thanks for quoting what I said. Are you sharing it with the police?  I will standby for commentary.

[Ogre]

We can go round and round on this subject but I do prescribe to it being a gateway drug.  Y'all libertarians disagree.  There's plenty of testimonial, analogical, and statistical evidence to the otherwise.

There are obvious negative effects of the ingestion of THC in humans and test mammals alike.  I've heard all of the arguments for it being OK and you aren't going to convince me otherwise; that is that it's really 'good' for you. 

The only positive attribute that it may have is effects against pain but that evidence is sketchy, arguable, and mostly anecdotal from what I've read...as I wrote earlier if that's what one needs then there are better narcotics that can be obtained from and monitored by a real doctor.

The simplest scientific fact is that THC is produced in plants as a self-defense against herbivores...why would I want to ingest this chemical for any reason especially for recreation?

Gateway shmateway.  

I am living proof that it is not a gateway drug.  I dabbled with one other drug twice in my early post-college years, and those experiences were all I needed to let me know that I don't want to do anything harder than pot.  

It is no more of a gateway drug than alcohol.  

[AUChizad]

We can go round and round on this subject but I do prescribe to it being a gateway drug.  Y'all libertarians disagree.  There's plenty of testimonial, analogical, and statistical evidence to the otherwise.

Alcohol is a gateway drug. More people that moved to harder substances such as cocaine, etc. started with alcohol.

There are obvious negative effects of the ingestion of THC in humans and test mammals alike.  I've heard all of the arguments for it being OK and you aren't going to convince me otherwise; that is that it's really 'good' for you. 

No one's saying it's good for you. Better than alcohol or tobacco, perhaps.

The only positive attribute that it may have is effects against pain but that evidence is sketchy, arguable, and mostly anecdotal from what I've read...as I wrote earlier if that's what one needs then there are better narcotics that can be obtained from and monitored by a real doctor.

I can agree to an extent that marijuana for medicinal purposes is a bit sketchy. I think it should be legalized for whatever purposes. But as it stands in some states it IS legal for medicinal use, and that's a step in the right direction. I don't think I'd qualify, but I have extreme GERD, and Barrett's Esophagus, which is a precurser to cancer. For me personally, there's no doubt that marijuana would be better for me than alcohol. I still stick to alcohol, because at present moment, that substance won't get me fired.

The simplest scientific fact is that THC is produced in plants as a self-defense against herbivores...why would I want to ingest this chemical for any reason especially for recreation?

What do you think fermentation is?