Health Care

[Kaos]

Point of order: I never mentioned race.  Poverty is an equal opportunity destroyer of lives.  It is not a choice.  No one chooses to begin there.

The rest of your post is anecdotal nothing. 

 basic health care ought to be a fundamental right in the world's greatest country.

Point of odor:  You didn't have to.  It was indelibly etched into your post.   You suffer from white privilege syndrome.  You feel guilty because you have more than others.  It's a disease. 

Anecdotal nothing?  That's how you respond to a reality you'd prefer not to face? 

Fundamental rights: 

Life. Liberty. Pursuit of happiness. 

That's it.  Free Afrin isn't on the list, nor should it be. 

[Kaos]

Christ on a cracker, no one who has spent any amount of time on this board expects that.

I only said that because there are those who tire of the back and forth and perhaps think we should find common ground. 

I'm completely in agreement with Chizad.  We should not agree. We shouldn't agree to disagree. We should keep fighting for what we believe in. 

I'm going to do that by supporting candidates who are as closely aligned to what I believe as I can. I'm going to support them financially when possible and encourage others to do so. In fact, I got my invitation to President Trump's inauguration yesterday.  So I'll be going..... hey.... wait.... Thanks USPS.  Awesome job with the timely mail.  I'm glad the same government that runs your outfit wants to manage healthcare. 

I assume you'll do the same. 

I also feel compelled to take advantage of venues like this to exchange ideas (and have the freedom to do so in vulgar ways, fuckhole) and get perspective from the other side.  I'm probably not going to change my mind, you're probably not BUT sometimes we may make points that help others see a different view.  I'm not even saying it's impossible to change my mind. I let you guys (and his performance) chill me out on Chizik for a while, until I was ultimately proven right in the end.

Where I am with this? If you want to pay for other people's healthcare?  Sure.  Go ahead. Let the churches do it if they want. I don't want to. 

If you want to open the borders?  Well, they all have to come live at your house.  Yours, George Clooney's, Seth Meyer's, Trevor Noah's, Jon Stewart's etc.  You pay for them and you be responsible for what they do.  I'd rather not. 

I don't want to pay for anybody else's housing, food, clothes or any of that unless I'm not forced to.  Then I might. 

I'll pay taxes for roads, for education, for police, for firefighters, for people to keep the streets and sidewalks clean. 

That to me should be the sole function of government.  Keep me safe, make sure I can get where I'm going and stay the fucking hell out of everything else entirely. 

[AUChizad]

I'm catching up.  Without watching any slanted news on it (either way) or actually looking at the bill, we should all assume that the people who are actually in the healthcare field are not going to ever be ok with anything that doesn't line their pockets to the fullest.  I can't blame them, they spend a shit ton of time and money in school.  I'd want to be paid handsomely as well.  But they have a vested interest in healthcare not being labeled as "affordable" in any sense of the word. 

So yes, fuck their opinions.

Agreed.

And there really needs to be some kind of regulation between Big Pharma sales and medical practice. The fact that people are getting rich off of people being sick is absolutely twisted. No way I trust anyone involved.

Was this your opinion on Obamacare or nah?

What about the Trump plan is "sticking it to big pharma and the medical profession" that Obamacare was not? I agree there need to be reforms and regulations put in place to reign in pharmaceutical companies (again, counter to my default position on government interference). Less so for "the medical profession" for reasons I already stated.

But it seemed like my stance on not completely fucking over doctors was one conservatives held to protest Obamacare. And it's one Kaos had yesterday until it no longer served him.

[GH2001]

I only said that because there are those who tire of the back and forth and perhaps think we should find common ground. 

I'm completely in agreement with Chizad.  We should not agree. We shouldn't agree to disagree. We should keep fighting for what we believe in. 

I'm going to do that by supporting candidates who are as closely aligned to what I believe as I can. I'm going to support them financially when possible and encourage others to do so. In fact, I got my invitation to President Trump's inauguration yesterday.  So I'll be going..... hey.... wait.... Thanks USPS.  Awesome job with the timely mail.  I'm glad the same government that runs your outfit wants to manage healthcare. 

I assume you'll do the same. 

I also feel compelled to take advantage of venues like this to exchange ideas (and have the freedom to do so in vulgar ways, fuckhole) and get perspective from the other side.  I'm probably not going to change my mind, you're probably not BUT sometimes we may make points that help others see a different view.  I'm not even saying it's impossible to change my mind. I let you guys (and his performance) chill me out on Chizik for a while, until I was ultimately proven right in the end.

Where I am with this? If you want to pay for other people's healthcare?  Sure.  Go ahead. Let the churches do it if they want. I don't want to. 

If you want to open the borders?  Well, they all have to come live at your house.  Yours, George Clooney's, Seth Meyer's, Trevor Noah's, Jon Stewart's etc.  You pay for them and you be responsible for what they do.  I'd rather not. 

I don't want to pay for anybody else's housing, food, clothes or any of that unless I'm not forced to.  Then I might. 

I'll pay taxes for roads, for education, for police, for firefighters, for people to keep the streets and sidewalks clean. 

That to me should be the sole function of government.  Keep me safe, make sure I can get where I'm going and stay the fucking hell out of everything else entirely.

When I say agree to disagree I'm meaning in the context of you and Wes being on totally different planets here and acknowledging that it's probably not going to change. But that doesn't mean you both won't quit pulling for your side nor should you.

[AUChizad]

Totally agree about needing an overhaul, but throwing even more money at the problems won't address the root cause.

Main point I've been driving at here. When do you stop increasing the money we throw at these issues?

Y'all seemed to have missed the bold below.

On the "repeal and replace" note, remember when I said it was not practical and unreasonable to slam the brakes and throw ACA out the window?  New estimates are in at $600Billion to repeal.

Y'all want to throw good money after bad just to spite Obama, and in practicality, lots and lots of sick people who were unable to get coverage before it.

I'm "conservative" in the sense that I think gradual, careful change is always preferred to drastic radical change. I was reluctant to be in favor of Obamacare because of this. Now that it's the law of the land, I'm also opposed to scrapping it outright for exactly the same reason. Like it or not, Obamacare is now in place. The wheels are in motion. Backtracking now would cause all kinds of disruption and cost all kinds of money. Just so you can "stick it to" people in need. Not a good look.

[Kaos]

But it seemed like my stance on not completely fucking over doctors was one conservatives held to protest Obamacare. And it's one Kaos had yesterday until it no longer served him.

Not sure how you got this. 

I think doctors should make as much as they can.  I don't think they should make it by bilking medicare and insurance companies by inflating the costs of what they do. 

Goes back to the $80 Tylenol.  That's a real thing.  When my first child was being born I had a horrific headache.  Asked the nurse if she could get me something. She said she could get me a couple of Tylenol, but they'd cost me $80 each so I'd be better off going to the pharmacy and getting some.  Well, shit, there's a baby coming, so hahaha, $80... yeah, right.  Just get them.  Going over the itemized bill later?  $158.00 for Tylenol.  Why?  Because insurance would pay it. 

I agree with GH. If there's a crisis it's in the costs. I've watched the medicine my dad has to take go from $24 for a month's supply to more than $400.  The costs get more and more ridiculous. Something has to be done to bring those in line. Giving away "free" healthcare isn't the answer.

It disgusts me that morons like Chuck Schumer, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and that piece of shit Islamobama forced this garbage on us and now we can't just get rid of it and tackle the real problems.  Any more money we throw at this mess is money shoved up a pig's ass. It's not going to make it better, it's only going to make it worse. This is one of those cases where we need to just rip the bandaid off and take the short-term pain.

[Kaos]

Y'all seemed to have missed the bold below.
Y'all want to throw good money after bad just to spite Obama, and in practicality, lots and lots of sick people who were unable to get coverage before it.

I'm "conservative" in the sense that I think gradual, careful change is always preferred to drastic radical change. I was reluctant to be in favor of Obamacare because of this. Now that it's the law of the land, I'm also opposed to scrapping it outright for exactly the same reason. Like it or not, Obamacare is now in place. The wheels are in motion. Backtracking now would cause all kinds of disruption and cost all kinds of money. Just so you can "stick it to" people in need. Not a good look.

1) Disagree that there were hordes of sick people unable to get care.  That's an outright lie.  Not on your part, I don't blame you.  It's the lie you were fed incessantly.  There is absolutely no one better off with this legislation in place.

2) If it were up to me, we'd stop the wheels completely.  Take the short-term hit and start over.  Anything you do that leads to removing it is the right answer. 

[AUJarhead]

Y'all seemed to have missed the bold below.
Y'all want to throw good money after bad just to spite Obama, and in practicality, lots and lots of sick people who were unable to get coverage before it.

I'm "conservative" in the sense that I think gradual, careful change is always preferred to drastic radical change. I was reluctant to be in favor of Obamacare because of this. Now that it's the law of the land, I'm also opposed to scrapping it outright for exactly the same reason. Like it or not, Obamacare is now in place. The wheels are in motion. Backtracking now would cause all kinds of disruption and cost all kinds of money. Just so you can "stick it to" people in need. Not a good look.

I've never stated how I feel about Obamacare vs Trumpcare.  Quite frankly, I think both sides have good intentions, and good ideas, and both sides have shootty ideas and ways to implement those shootty ideas.

I'll also add that I'm more in line with your thinking, here.

[AUChizad]

Not sure how you got this. 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I believe in the free market.  Competition keeps costs down and levels of service high.  Without it?  You've got what you've got now.  Runaway costs, reduced service and a minimal level of quality.  The entire situation is exponentially worse than it was before Hillary and Obama started meddling.

Health care lent itself to the free market quite well prior to government intervention.  There was no crisis, there was no need for federal intrusion.

I think common sense absolutely bares out that when doctors start getting paid average-Joe wages, you are no longer going to get the best and the brightest entering the field of medicine. Can't imagine how you would expect that to be the case.

Oh no.  I agree with you.

[Kaos]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I don't see how that's inconsistent in any way with telling doctors opposed to changes to or repealing an entitlement program to fuck off. 

Free market.  Costs will go down. 

[Townhallsavoy]

Was this your opinion on Obamacare or nah?

What about the Trump plan is "sticking it to big pharma and the medical profession" that Obamacare was not? I agree there need to be reforms and regulations put in place to reign in pharmaceutical companies (again, counter to my default position of government interference). Less so for "the medical profession" for reasons I already stated.

But it seemed like my stance on not completely fucking over doctors was one conservatives held to protest Obamacare. And it's one Kaos had yesterday until it no longer served him.

Was the same with Obamacare.

I'm more of a single payer kinda guy. I don't know. Maybe I'm crazy for thinking providing proper healthcare to every citizen would be more beneficial to the country than turning it into a capitalistic enterprise.

I didn't read the entire thread, so I'm not sure what points everyone has made. I can assume what some have said and can probably accurate guess the tenor of the argument once K gets going.

I don't trust that Republicare (or the World's Greatest Health Care Plan) is going to solve the issues. It might switch the issues to a different isle, but the grocery store will still be selling too much rotten food.

[AUChizad]

I didn't read the entire thread, so I'm not sure what points everyone has made. I can assume what some have said and can probably accurate guess the tenor of the argument once K gets going.

You'd be surprised. Turned out to be the most productive conversation this forum has had in years.

[GH2001]

You'd be surprised. Turned out to be the most productive conversation this forum has had in years.

This. Agree or not it's substantial.

[Kaos]

Was the same with Obamacare.

I'm more of a single payer kinda guy. I don't know. Maybe I'm crazy for thinking providing proper healthcare to every citizen would be more beneficial to the country than turning it into a capitalistic enterprise.

I didn't read the entire thread, so I'm not sure what points everyone has made. I can assume what some have said and can probably accurate guess the tenor of the argument once K gets going.

I don't trust that Republicare (or the World's Greatest Health Care Plan) is going to solve the issues. It might switch the issues to a different isle, but the grocery store will still be selling too much rotten food.

Blow me, cactus jack.

Does that help?

[Godfather]

Main point I've been driving at here. When do you stop increasing the money we throw at these issues?

Apparently never.

[Godfather]

Was the same with Obamacare.

I'm more of a single payer kinda guy. I don't know. Maybe I'm crazy for thinking providing proper healthcare to every citizen would be more beneficial to the country than turning it into a capitalistic enterprise.

I didn't read the entire thread, so I'm not sure what points everyone has made. I can assume what some have said and can probably accurate guess the tenor of the argument once K gets going.

I don't trust that Republicare (or the World's Greatest Health Care Plan) is going to solve the issues. It might switch the issues to a different isle, but the grocery store will still be selling too much rotten food.

You should go back and read it.   It is probably one of the best threads we have ever had on the X

[Snaggletiger]

You should go back and read it.   It is probably one of the best threads we have ever had on the X

Better than an offer of Luke Bryan tickets?  Shut the front door.

[Godfather]

Better than an offer of Luke Bryan tickets?  Shut the front door.

Kaos would rather pay for free healthcare

[Kaos]

Why I don't want government run anything....

Won't name the state but my company provides them a software system. Licensing and maintenance runs about $200k a year.  Every five years we have to rebid but the way the bid is structured they bid out maintenance on my software.  Can't do that without access to my code which I'm not giving.

If they want to change they can bid out the entire system.  Conversion, implementation etc. I still have an advantage.

So. One of the programs in the state had a meeting with a local software vendor who said he could do what we do more efficiently and at a lower rate.  This despite having no experience in navigating the tangled morass of federal regulation that is the basis of the system we've been doing for the last 15 years. 

This guy demanded a feasibility study to determine whether they would be better off designing their own self-maintained system or continuing to use ours (our our competitors less functional more expensive version).  The state caved. They hired a third party to evaluate their data entry processes and review our system capabilities. 

Bear in mind we were in year one of a five year contact with three additional years of automatic opt in when this started. My people had to waste the better part of a year working with their data analysts. The first thing we had to do was essentially train them on all the federal regulations that drive the reporting. They had zero background and less than zero understanding of what they were looking at or should expect to see.  Huge manpower drain for me and the state rejected my position that providing this effort was outside the scope of the contract.

So the evaluators finish, determine that there's no way in hell they could recreate what we do for what they pay. Everybody moves on.

Today I find out the state paid over $3 mil for that study. For 1/10th of that I could have made major improvement in their system AND bought a boat. 

So you pay $3m to find out if it makes sense to pay $200k a year for a software system.

Good government. 

[Snaggletiger]

Kaos would rather pay for free healthcare

That's cold.

If you were in a barrel and someone dipped a banana in you and then dropped that banana on the ground it would shatter…that’s how cold you are.  If you were in a truck and that truck flipped over and spilled all over the T100 from Terminator 2, he would harden …that’s how cold you are.  AA