Just Finished the Sopranos (Spoilers)

[Townhallsavoy]

After years of hearing its plaudits, I finally got around to watching the acclaimed series.  Obviously most discussions have been hashed out so I won't dive into too much. 

- Part I of season 6 was an abomination.  Part II was better though if it were not for the last four episodes, I would have placed The Sopranos in the category of failed experiments. 

- My first thought when it ended was that Tony Soprano was whacked.  I like this website's take: http://masterofsopranos.wordpress.com/the-sopranos-definitive-explanation-of-the-end/

There are two options with the ending:

1.  Tony was killed.
2.  There was no finale.

I've read quite a bit from both sides.  I guess you can make up your mind about it how you want, but I prefer to finish a series with a definitive end. 

- AJ was the most pathetic character in the history of television BUT his entire douchiness was cultivated by his mother and father. 

- Chrissy's death was well done but I hated it because he was my favorite character.  Similarly with Sil.

- I've never seen a show with more product placement. 

Good show.  What's next?

[GH2001]

After years of hearing its plaudits, I finally got around to watching the acclaimed series.  Obviously most discussions have been hashed out so I won't dive into too much. 

- Part I of season 6 was an abomination.  Part II was better though if it were not for the last four episodes, I would have placed The Sopranos in the category of failed experiments. 

- My first thought when it ended was that Tony Soprano was whacked.  I like this website's take: http://masterofsopranos.wordpress.com/the-sopranos-definitive-explanation-of-the-end/

There are two options with the ending:

1.  Tony was killed.
2.  There was no finale.

I've read quite a bit from both sides.  I guess you can make up your mind about it how you want, but I prefer to finish a series with a definitive end. 

- AJ was the most pathetic character in the history of television BUT his entire douchiness was cultivated by his mother and father. 

- Chrissy's death was well done but I hated it because he was my favorite character.  Similarly with Sil.

- I've never seen a show with more product placement. 

Good show.  What's next?

David Chase has said that the end is a mystery. It lets Tony be immortal in the minds of viewers. Does the mysterious guy in the diner pull off the kill? Was he just a no one? Or does Tony pick up on it and have guys waiting to take him out in the diner before he gets to him? No one knows. Chase doesn't even know. And I think that is the whole point. You decide. And Tony lives forever since nothing concrete happened.

Im convinced AJ's role in the series was the show the contrast in him and Tony. The new vs the old guard and the stark differences in Tony's generation and AJ's.

But yes, Kaos and I both agree that part of 6 was an abortion. Sad part though? Still better than most of others thing put on TV. Kind of like Led Zeppelin's "All of My Love"....crap for them, but still better than most other songs.

[DnATL]

But yes, Kaos and I both agree that part of 6 was an abortion. Sad part though? Still better than most of others thing put on TV. Kind of like Led Zeppelin's "All of My Love"....crap for them, but still better than most other songs.

Listen to Bonham's drums on that track - compare that to a "ballad" by anyone else

[Townhallsavoy]

David Chase has said that the end is a mystery. It lets Tony be immortal in the minds of viewers. Does the mysterious guy in the diner pull off the kill? Was he just a no one? Or does Tony pick up on it and have guys waiting to take him out in the diner before he gets to him? No one knows. Chase doesn't even know. And I think that is the whole point. You decide. And Tony lives forever since nothing concrete happened.

I get that.  But if Tony was killed, then the show had a proper conclusion.  The Sopranos ended.  AJ obviously wasn't going to take over the family business.  Junior had no children.  Janice's son changed his name and became a vagabond.  Chrissy was the next closest descendent and he was gone. 

If Tony wasn't killed, then the show's conclusion never exists.  It was just a scene where he and his family get together to eat.  Nothing happens.  That doesn't fit the show to me.  The show resolved EVERYTHING it introduced.  It introduced Tony Soprano.  It resolved Tony Soprano. 

But again, not that big a deal.  People are free to take from it what they want.  I don't like it when writers do that, but it's worked for Chase.  People still talk about it seven years later.

EDIT NOTE - Accidentally hit post when I meant to hit close. 

[Kaos]

David Chase has said that the end is a mystery. It lets Tony be immortal in the minds of viewers. Does the mysterious guy in the diner pull off the kill? Was he just a no one? Or does Tony pick up on it and have guys waiting to take him out in the diner before he gets to him? No one knows. Chase doesn't even know. And I think that is the whole point. You decide. And Tony lives forever since nothing concrete happened.

Im convinced AJ's role in the series was the show the contrast in him and Tony. The new vs the old guard and the stark differences in Tony's generation and AJ's.

But yes, Kaos and I both agree that part of 6 was an abortion. Sad part though? Still better than most of others thing put on TV. Kind of like Led Zeppelin's "All of My Love"....crap for them, but still better than most other songs.

Whatever happened to Gsry Cooper? The strong silent type?

Tony was really the bridge.  He spanned the cultural divide between uncle jun's and Mom's stoic adherence to the code and AJ's entitled world without borders.  He knew sacrifice but never truly had to make it. He was old enough to remember and in his own way respect those who did -- the John Wayne/Gary cooper ideal. Aj knows nothing of sacrifice. Hasn't seen it. His life of ease makes him weak and unprepared for the reality of the world. Oh, poor you. 

It was never about what it was.  It was always about the way the world has changed.  A little nostalgic  in a way but also enlightened enough to realize that the good old days weren't so peachy either.

Tony felt emasculated by his wife, his kids, his employees. He wanted to be strong and revered like his dad was. But also realized that his mom dominated his dad.

In his internal desperation, his questioning what it's all about, his need to feel valued and his confusion at his inability to effectively exercise control over any aspect of his life -- even his appetite -- I see a lot of me. He did have power I don't and I see drawn to his character because at times he could say and do things I don't. The guy wearing the hat in the restsurant for example.

That's why I liked the show. The mobster stuff was just a set piece.

Dd he die at the end? Nope. You just don't get to see the rest. Your window into his world closed.

If he was killed, who did it?  Phil's crew was done. He'd made peace with them. Chrissy was done. Johnny sac was dead. Paulie? Please. There was no viable threat. Nobody to take him down. Nobody to gain.

You can debate all day whether he did or didn't but until you can identify who might have done it? No reason to think it happened.

[Townhallsavoy]

You can debate all day whether he did or didn't but until you can identify who might have done it? No reason to think it happened.

Good analysis all around. 

They didn't give a definite motive for Tony's death, but there are some clues.  For one, the code of ethics written for those involved in organized crime said that you don't mess with families.  It's why Tony lost his shit on Coco (and admitted even then, he shouldn't have done what he did).  You don't mess with families and you sure as hell don't brutally murder and decapitate a person in front of his wife and grandkids.  The hit on Phil was further considered wrong as throughout the series, any time they alluded to taking out a boss, the quickly agreed sentiment was that you don't fuck around with that shit. 

Also, Butch's crazy eyes were a nice insight on what was in his brain.  He wasn't exactly a stellar person and seemed hellbent on convincing Phil to take on the Soprano family head on.  Butch's demonic appearance was no accident if you ask me.  He didn't care about ethics.  He cared about a devious plan, and his plan worked.  Get Phil to take out Jersey and then get rid of Phil.  It almost worked, but Tony slipped away.  So Butch just had Tony take out Phil and then Butch took out Tony.  Having Tony killed in front of his family only helps the argument that it was Butch. 

[Kaos]

Good analysis all around. 

They didn't give a definite motive for Tony's death, but there are some clues.  For one, the code of ethics written for those involved in organized crime said that you don't mess with families.  It's why Tony lost his shit on Coco (and admitted even then, he shouldn't have done what he did).  You don't mess with families and you sure as hell don't brutally murder and decapitate a person in front of his wife and grandkids.  The hit on Phil was further considered wrong as throughout the series, any time they alluded to taking out a boss, the quickly agreed sentiment was that you don't fuck around with that shit. 

Also, Butch's crazy eyes were a nice insight on what was in his brain.  He wasn't exactly a stellar person and seemed hellbent on convincing Phil to take on the Soprano family head on.  Butch's demonic appearance was no accident if you ask me.  He didn't care about ethics.  He cared about a devious plan, and his plan worked.  Get Phil to take out Jersey and then get rid of Phil.  It almost worked, but Tony slipped away.  So Butch just had Tony take out Phil and then Butch took out Tony.  Having Tony killed in front of his family only helps the argument that it was Butch.

Butch wasn't capable of running his own crew. And he wasn't gonna start a war with New Jersey after just establishing the peace and getting rid of a guy (Phil) who forgot business and made everything personal.

IF butch were going after tony he would need somebody on that side he had a deal with to be in charge after it went down. Who?

If there were somebody on Tonys side trying to step up or even able to step up? Maybe. Bobby was dead. Silvio was in intensive care. Chris was dead. Beans was in Miami. Carlo was cooperating with the Feds. Jun was lost in his own mind.

That leaves Paulie. No. Parisi? No. Beyond that nothing but meatheads. He had no enemies.

[Townhallsavoy]

Butch wasn't capable of running his own crew. And he wasn't gonna start a war with New Jersey after just establishing the peace and getting rid of a guy (Phil) who forgot business and made everything personal.

IF butch were going after tony he would need somebody on that side he had a deal with to be in charge after it went down. Who?

If there were somebody on Tonys side trying to step up or even able to step up? Maybe. Bobby was dead. Silvio was in intensive care. Chris was dead. Beans was in Miami. Carlo was cooperating with the Feds. Jun was lost in his own mind.

That leaves Paulie. No. Parisi? No. Beyond that nothing but meatheads. He had no enemies.

Well, giving it some more thought:



I also read an interesting take on Paulie taking out Tony due to his superstitious fear of death, which led to him not wanting to take the construction job as he felt it was cursed.  But I personally refuse to think Paulie - though not as loyal as he appeared - would ever go full mutiny against his general. 

[Kaos]

I used to want to fight to the death over the "Tony's Dead" idea.  But when he died in real life it didn't seem to matter much any more. 

See it how you see it.  I prefer to imagine that their lives went on.  All the turmoil that had plagued them was finally over for the most part.  Carm had settled back into the life she was meant for and they seemed to finally appreciate each other.  Tony's demons were pretty much exorcised.  AJ found something he cared about and was for the first time not being a self-involved teenage douche.  They actually enjoyed being around him. Meadow found her calling and had matured into a self-sufficient and less high maintenance woman.  That's the moment of peace everybody my age is searching for.

Parisi would be the only potential threat, IMO.  The only reason I would think no is because his son is engaged to Meadow.  Would he make that call and put his future daughter-in-law at risk?  Maybe. 

[GH2001]

I used to want to fight to the death over the "Tony's Dead" idea.  But when he died in real life it didn't seem to matter much any more. 

See it how you see it.  I prefer to imagine that their lives went on.  All the turmoil that had plagued them was finally over for the most part.  Carm had settled back into the life she was meant for and they seemed to finally appreciate each other.  Tony's demons were pretty much exorcised.  AJ found something he cared about and was for the first time not being a self-involved teenage douche.  They actually enjoyed being around him. Meadow found her calling and had matured into a self-sufficient and less high maintenance woman.  That's the moment of peace everybody my age is searching for.

Parisi would be the only potential threat, IMO.  The only reason I would think no is because his son is engaged to Meadow.  Would he make that call and put his future daughter-in-law at risk?  Maybe.

I do think SOMETHING was up in the diner. The who (as youve stated) is the hard part. A normal diner patron/bystander wouldn't make the mysterious movements and facial expressions that "members only guy" was making. But of all the possibilities I don't think there was anyone capable of pulling it off. Not against Tony. Of course NY/NJ traiditionally has had several crime families, so there could be another one in the wings we didnt know about that had dealings with Johnny Sac and Carmine's old crews and have been wanting to get at NJ for one reason or another. Who knows. Either way the show is brilliant.

[Jumbo]

Townhall, I'm watching Dexter & Sons of Anarchy right now. Have you seen those?

[wesfau2]

In his internal desperation, his questioning what it's all about, his need to feel valued and his confusion at his inability to effectively exercise control over any aspect of his life -- even his appetite -- I see a lot of me.

It might as well have been you in that chair when Melfi was dressing him down about his idea that Tony was a "sad clown."

Others see the "clowning" as acts of (e-) rage.

[Kaos]

Townhall, I'm watching Dexter & Sons of Anarchy right now. Have you seen those?

Do NOT watch the last season of Dexter.  In fact, once you get to the season where John Lithgow is the primary antagonist?  End it there.  Don't go on. 

[wesfau2]

Do NOT watch the last season of Dexter.  In fact, once you get to the season where John Lithgow is the primary antagonist?  End it there.  Don't go on.

This is correct.  I ignored this sage advice...and suffered.

[GH2001]

This is correct.  I ignored this sage advice...and suffered.

Primarily because of Lithgow?

Because I find him unfunny and appalling.

[Kaos]

It might as well have been you in that chair when Melfi was dressing him down about his idea that Tony was a "sad clown."

Others see the "clowning" as acts of (e-) rage.

I have no idea what you're talking about.  I don't feel sad clowny at all. 

I do think everybody of my relative age suffers from some of those same feelings, though.  We were born into a world where "men were men" even if it were nothing but a public perception.  Men worked, women stayed home and raised the children.  The children were seen and not heard.  Beaver Cleaver, Father Knows Best, Andy Griffith....

The world is much different now.  All the things it looked like our fathers and grandfathers handled with grim manliness are now beyond our control. 

My dad could seemingly do almost anything.  When the car broke down, he got under the hood and fixed it.  He and my grandfather got together and built our first house. It wasn't a mansion, but it was good enough. 

My car breaks down, I take it to a shop. I could fix my first car (65 Mustang) myself, but I have no idea where anything is under the hood now.  I couldn't even find the battery when somebody needed a jump off at the mall. (It's in the trunk, I learned that).  I couldn't build a house. 

Our grandfathers were heroes. They went to war, defeated Hitler and the Japanese and came back home.  The next generation went to Korea or Vietnam and came back damaged and broken. It's like they weren't quite strong enough and we are substantially weaker.  I watch the movies about the invasion of Normandy and I don't know if I could do that.  Not only me, but our leadership as well. We wouldn't do that. 

I identified with Tony in a lot of ways.  We're essentially the same age (he's three or four years older) and the feelings his character was imbued with are very familiar to me -- even down to the nostalgia over old songs on the radio.  The struggle to get his kids to understand the values that were important to him (even if he didn't always exhibit them himself) resonates. 
 

[Kaos]

Primarily because of Lithgow?

Because I find him unfunny and appalling.

No, although I don't like Lithgow much either.  It's just that after that story arc the series had no idea where to go and the writers made some abysmal decisions with the characters.  It was a great show up to that point but spiraled off into absurdity afterwards.   

[GH2001]

No, although I don't like Lithgow much either.  It's just that after that story arc the series had no idea where to go and the writers made some abysmal decisions with the characters.  It was a great show up to that point but spiraled off into absurdity afterwards.

He probably didn't help matters any. Helps writers to have the right actors in place. Lithgow isn't exactly Tom Hanks in being dynamic. Always found him 1 dimensional and stupid much like Jim Carey. I haven't seen the episodes you speak of with him but I can't see him selling a main role in a show like Dexter.

[Townhallsavoy]

Townhall, I'm watching Dexter & Sons of Anarchy right now. Have you seen those?

I haven't seen Dexter.  Was really interested in it but I've heard so much criticism of the later seasons that I don't think I'll ever start it.

Tried Sons of Anarchy.  It was good at first, but I think I'm done with the 20+ episode seasons.  I just don't have the time to devote 100+ hours to a story.  The 60-70 was hard enough with the Sopranos. 

[Townhallsavoy]

I have no idea what you're talking about.  I don't feel sad clowny at all. 

I do think everybody of my relative age suffers from some of those same feelings, though.  We were born into a world where "men were men" even if it were nothing but a public perception.  Men worked, women stayed home and raised the children.  The children were seen and not heard.  Beaver Cleaver, Father Knows Best, Andy Griffith....

The world is much different now.  All the things it looked like our fathers and grandfathers handled with grim manliness are now beyond our control. 

My dad could seemingly do almost anything.  When the car broke down, he got under the hood and fixed it.  He and my grandfather got together and built our first house. It wasn't a mansion, but it was good enough. 

My car breaks down, I take it to a shop. I could fix my first car (65 Mustang) myself, but I have no idea where anything is under the hood now.  I couldn't even find the battery when somebody needed a jump off at the mall. (It's in the trunk, I learned that).  I couldn't build a house. 

Our grandfathers were heroes. They went to war, defeated Hitler and the Japanese and came back home.  The next generation went to Korea or Vietnam and came back damaged and broken. It's like they weren't quite strong enough and we are substantially weaker.  I watch the movies about the invasion of Normandy and I don't know if I could do that.  Not only me, but our leadership as well. We wouldn't do that. 

I identified with Tony in a lot of ways.  We're essentially the same age (he's three or four years older) and the feelings his character was imbued with are very familiar to me -- even down to the nostalgia over old songs on the radio.  The struggle to get his kids to understand the values that were important to him (even if he didn't always exhibit them himself) resonates. 
 

This is what made Tony Soprano so dynamic.  For me, even though my generation and my life scenario are vastly different than his, I still felt a strong identification in him.  The show brilliantly portrayed through Tony the struggle a man has when he has a family.  It's the most selfless era of your life but at the same time, as a man ages and succeeds and becomes experienced in how life works, he also begins to be more selfish.  More set in his ways.  More demanding and holding higher expectations.  Wanting to take what is "his."  That tension between being selfless and selfish was a catalyst in The Sopranos.  It's there for me too.