Man Arrested for Gunning Down Cop in No Knock Raid

[WiregrassTiger]

Well if you're right then the entire thing will be thrown out immediately. If the police were conducting an unlawful search the under the fruits of the poisoned tree doctrine any and all evidence obtained is inadmissible, including the dead cop. However, in the spirit of rebuttal:

http://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/usa/dallas
This shows the twilight hours...

actually, know what, fudge it. The cops are guilty of conducting doughnut raids, the guy's innocent. It takes 3 minutes from the time you can see clearly until the sun has fully risen and all LEOs are required to follow FLETC guidelines at all times. According to self defense law you're reasonably in fear for your doughnuts safety if you even see a cop. This arrest is a travesty and I'm totally against it.

I'm glad you are finally starting to see things our way. Now, let's get started on that Sovereign Citizen paperwork.

[smooth_operator]

I'm glad you are finally starting to see things our way. Now, let's get started on that Sovereign Citizen paperwork.

Is there paperwork? I can barely read.

[Vandy Vol]

Well if you're right then the entire thing will be thrown out immediately. If the police were conducting an unlawful search the under the fruits of the poisoned tree doctrine any and all evidence obtained is inadmissible, including the dead cop. However, in the spirit of rebuttal:

http://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/usa/dallas
This shows the twilight hours...

actually, know what, fudge it. The cops are guilty of conducting doughnut raids, the guy's innocent. It takes 3 minutes from the time you can see clearly until the sun has fully risen and all LEOs are required to follow FLETC guidelines at all times. According to self defense law you're reasonably in fear for your doughnuts safety if you even see a cop. This arrest is a travesty and I'm totally against it.

Twilight is a bit different from full daylight, which is what you were initially stating.  And at 5:30AM, the light produced during twilight is right between "astronomical twilight" and "nautical twilight."  Astronomical twilight is when it goes from completely dark to light just starting to be visible on the horizon, and nautical twilight is when only vague outline of objects are visible (according to the National Weather Service Weather Forecast Office).  So there's still not an argument to be made that this was in clear daylight and everyone was easily identifiable.

I think we've both already stated that none of us were there and know what happened for sure.  And in case I haven't made it clear, I'm not defending the guy or shitting on police.  I'm just pointing out that until we know more concrete facts, we don't know who was in the right and who was in the wrong.

[Token]

actually, know what, fudge it. The cops are guilty of conducting doughnut raids, the guy's innocent. It takes 3 minutes from the time you can see clearly until the sun has fully risen and all LEOs are required to follow FLETC guidelines at all times. According to self defense law you're reasonably in fear for your doughnuts safety if you even see a cop. This arrest is a travesty and I'm totally against it.

I already told you, and I can't believe it's taken you this long to figure shit out. 

You obtain and execute warrants everyday, have been assigned to the US Marshall's task force for a number of years, and are a member of one of the largest SWAT details in northeast Alabama. He's a tax lawyer.  He obviously knows more than you on this subject. 

Now can we please turn the lights off in this thread? 

[Vandy Vol]

I already told you, and I can't believe it's taken you this long to figure shit out. 

You obtain and execute warrants everyday, have been assigned to the US Marshall's task force for a number of years, and are a member of one of the largest SWAT details in northeast Alabama. He's a tax lawyer.  He obviously knows more than you on this subject. 

Now can we please turn the lights off in this thread?

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to read...

https://www.fletc.gov/training/programs/legal-division/podcasts/4th-amendment-roadmap-podcasts/4th-amendment-transcripts/execution-of-a-search-warrant-i.html

Tim:  When is it reasonable to execute a search?

Jenna:  First I need to make a distinction between arrests warrants and search warrants.  Arrest warrants can be served anytime - night or day.  If the agents have an arrest warrant for suspect, they can enter that suspects residence to serve the warrant any time - night or day - as long as they have a reasonable belief that the suspect is home.  Search warrants are different.  They are generally executed in the daytime; the daytime is defined between 6am and 10pm.

Not to mention that, you know...police actions are governed by laws, and lawyers deal with law...and stuff.

[Token]

Not to mention that, you know...police actions are governed by laws, and lawyers deal with law...and stuff.

Great.  There is a guy in Texas who needs your help.  I'll follow the case to see how you do. 

[smooth_operator]

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to read...

https://www.fletc.gov/training/programs/legal-division/podcasts/4th-amendment-roadmap-podcasts/4th-amendment-transcripts/execution-of-a-search-warrant-i.html


Not to mention that, you know...police actions are governed by laws, and lawyers deal with law...and stuff.

Tax lawyer huh?

Okay look. FLETC is an academy. What they say isn't legally binding for anyone, certainty not a state agency. And I get it. Really, I understand. I'll stop.

[Vandy Vol]

Okay look. FLETC is an academy. What they say isn't legally binding for anyone, certainty not a state agency. And I get it. Really, I understand. I'll stop.

So a government academy that is training people in an official capacity on how to execute the law doesn't know what they're talking about?

[Token]

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to read...

https://www.fletc.gov/training/programs/legal-division/podcasts/4th-amendment-roadmap-podcasts/4th-amendment-transcripts/execution-of-a-search-warrant-i.html

By the way, great website.

Jenna:  It can be, yes, agents can dispense with “knock and announce” when they have reasonable suspicion that exigent circumstances exist.  So agents have to have some facts that allow them to reasonably conclude that to knock and announce will be dangerous, futile, pointless, or inhibit their investigation by facilitating the destruction evident.

Judges can issue no knock warrants from the “get go” when agents can articulate reasonable suspicious that to knock and announce will be dangerous, futile or inhibit that investigation.  So for example, agents might decide they might either go to the judge with this information or they may find this information at the scene and make the decision themselves. 

They might make it a no knock entry in a case like this.    Say the agents are going to execute a drug warrant.  Since it’s a drug warrant, we know that agents can execute it either in the day or night.  The agents know that the suspect who’s house they are going to has previously told friends he’ll go down shooting if the cops every come to his house.  And, the agents were told by a reliable informant of theirs that the suspect always answers the door with a gun in his hand.  And their surveillance has revealed that the suspect has posted lookouts on the corners in the neighborhood, so someone can signal him or call him on his cell phone or something like that when they think the police are approaching.  Articulation of those facts would probably support a no-knock entry, since the suspect appears from those facts he’s already made plans to destroy evidence and assault police officers if he finds out they are coming to his house.

But seriously though, fuck cops.  That one deserved to be shot in the face.

And fuck this thread.  That officer went into that residence knowing it may be his last, and he did it anyway.  Very few of you would do that exact thing, regardless of circumstances. 

And many of you don't get it.  I understand that.  Because you are decent people, who have good educations and go to work every day of your life.  If someone is coming into your residence at anytime of the day, they are a burglar trying to steal your shit.  Because you aren't dope dealers.  And you haven't been convicted of armed robbery.  And you aren't a piece of shit.  Until you deal with these people on a daily basis, you'll never truly understand.  That's fine too.  And there are bad cops.  Specifically, every single state trooper I know.  And there are asshole cops.  Ones who write tickets to decent people who are simply trying to get through the day.  Fuck everyone of those guys.  But fuck that convicted felon, accused of selling dope, even harder.  And fuck anyone who reads that press release and doesn't immediately believe that he didn't know the cops were trying to beat his door down, and then decided to shoot the first one through the window. 

[Vandy Vol]

By the way, great website.

But seriously though, fuck cops.  That one deserved to be shot in the face.

I never argued that the no-knock aspect of the search warrant was invalid, nor do I really care whether the warrants can be executed in the day or night.  In fact, it was smooth_operator, the guy you're defending as knowing what he's talking about, who stated that this had to have been considered as served in the daytime because you don't serve search warrants at night.

Rather, I was stating that you can't argue that it was broad daylight and the officers were readily identifiable visibly, and that it's possible that the resident had a reasonable fear for his life without knowing who was breaking in.

If the warrant was executed properly and they were identifying themselves as police after already having tried to bang down the door with 10 hits, then it would be highly unlikely that this guy didn't know it was the police.

My only stance has been that without knowing exactly what happened, when it happened, and how it happened, we don't know who's in the wrong.

[bgreene]

Twilight is a bit different from full daylight, which is what you were initially stating.  And at 5:30AM, the light produced during twilight is right between "astronomical twilight" and "nautical twilight."  Astronomical twilight is when it goes from completely dark to light just starting to be visible on the horizon, and nautical twilight is when only vague outline of objects are visible (according to the National Weather Service Weather Forecast Office).  So there's still not an argument to be made that this was in clear daylight and everyone was easily identifiable.

This is why people hate lawyers.

[Vandy Vol]

This is why people hate lawyers.

Because we point out that there are proper definitions for terms that come from the appropriate authorities on the subject?

[GH2001]

I never argued that the no-knock aspect of the search warrant was invalid, nor do I really care whether the warrants can be executed in the day or night.  In fact, it was smooth_operator, the guy you're defending as knowing what he's talking about, who stated that this had to have been considered as served in the daytime because you don't serve search warrants at night.

Rather, I was stating that you can't argue that it was broad daylight and the officers were readily identifiable visibly, and that it's possible that the resident had a reasonable fear for his life without knowing who was breaking in.

If the warrant was executed properly and they were identifying themselves as police after already having tried to bang down the door with 10 hits, then it would be highly unlikely that this guy didn't know it was the police.

My only stance has been that without knowing exactly what happened, when it happened, and how it happened, we don't know who's in the wrong.

Tax Lawyer eh?

I bet you also drink skunky beer at tailgating events and touch little kids in attendance - ya big pervert.

[Saniflush]

This is why people hate lawyers.

They also hate Twilight!  Ghey assed vampires.

[Vandy Vol]

Tax Lawyer eh?

I bet you also drink skunky beer at tailgating events and touch little kids in attendance - ya big pervert.

I drink moonshine and touch the grown men.  Get that shit right!

[Token]

I amended my last post, and I'm finished with this thread.  Fuck dirty cops, felons, and lawyers. 

[smooth_operator]

I never argued that the no-knock aspect of the search warrant was invalid, nor do I really care whether the warrants can be executed in the day or night.  In fact, it was smooth_operator, the guy you're defending as knowing what he's talking about, who stated that this had to have been considered as served in the daytime because you don't serve search warrants at night.

Rather, I was stating that you can't argue that it was broad daylight and the officers were readily identifiable visibly, and that it's possible that the resident had a reasonable fear for his life without knowing who was breaking in.

If the warrant was executed properly and they were identifying themselves as police after already having tried to bang down the door with 10 hits, then it would be highly unlikely that this guy didn't know it was the police.

My only stance has been that without knowing exactly what happened, when it happened, and how it happened, we don't know who's in the wrong.

I've re-read everything and I've decided you're just trolling.

[Token]

My only stance has been that without knowing exactly what happened, when it happened, and how it happened, we don't know who's in the wrong.

We know they had a warrant.  We know they attempted to execute the warrant.  As I said many pages ago, UNLESS THEY WERE AT THE WRONG ADDRESS, it is very clear who was in the wrong. 

Seriously, now I'm finished.

[Kaos]

Tax Lawyer eh?

I bet you also drink skunky beer at tailgating events and touch little kids in attendance - ya big pervert.

He's not very good at the taxes. Doesn't even understand the "monopoly money" concept or that "profits" are not "cash in hand"

[Vandy Vol]

Just because you're a dope dealer doesn't mean you lose self defense rights.  If someone who is not a cop breaks into their house, self defense still applies.  And, unfortunately, if a police officer is shot because he did not identify himself and was not readily identifiable for any reason, self defense applies.

Thank God you guys do what you do.  Seriously.  I don't envy you, and I respect you.  But just because you're a cop and someone is a criminal doesn't give you free reign to do whatever.  And I am not, I repeat, AM NOT stating that the police in this instance did anything wrong.  They may have done everything right, and if so, fuck the guy who shot him.  But we can't just assume that because procedure says X, then X was done.  We don't start shouting inaccuracies about how it was broad daylight to defend a cop just because he's a cop.  We should be defending who was in the right, not who had what profession.

Again, if what the cops did was done correctly (and as you alluded to, in most instances they are), then fuck that guy.  Even if a procedural step was missed, but it can be shown that he did know it was the cops, fuck that guy.  But I'm not going to prematurely decide who's in the wrong when there are unknown facts that may decide the issue.