2014 NFL Draft...

[The Six]

[dallaswareagle]

Picture would be more realistic if he was on his back and missed picking up the phone. 

[Vandy Vol]

OK, my numbers were a bit off (posted from phone), but you get the drift. He stock piled his stats.

As did Ford arguably.  Most tackles in a game?  6, against Mississippi State.  Second most?  4, against Florida Atlantic.  He didn't record more than 2 sacks in a game, recorded two sacks in a game only twice, and one of them was against Ole Miss.

Again, I'm not saying Sam is fan-fucking-tastic...just that Ford is also not fan-fucking-tastic when compared to Sam, and that both of their stats enjoyed boosts from crappy teams.

And I haven't once advocated for Dee Ford to be SEC D POY.

That was more in response to TW's post asking why Sam got SEC DPOY, but Ford didn't.

Ford did however seem to get better as the year went on. And truly showed up in the seccg, bcscg and the sr bowl - where he was MVP. Those 3 are hard to ignore. Does Sam have anything of those? When the game meant something, was on the line - against a quality offense?

SEC DPOY was announced on December 9, 2013.  Senior Bowl was after that.  BSCCG was after that.  SECCG was two days before that, but I'm assuming they voted prior to the SECCG.

Regardless, Sam had the same number of tackles in the SECCG and bowl game as Ford did in the SECCG and BSCCG.  Ford had 0.5 sacks in the SECCG, Sam had none.  Ford had 2 sacks in the BCSCG, Sam had 1.  But are you really going to ignore the overall season because Ford got 1.5 more sacks in the last two games of the season?  Ford makes some impressive plays later in the season, and we should ignore the fact that he didn't record more than 3 tackles in 83% of the games he played?  The award is for the defensive player of the year, not "best player during a few games near the end of the season."

I also think Clowney and Moseley are up there. They don't have the stats, but the eye test still says they are top notch. I think there is a fine line with stats and intangibles, and we tend to lean too heavy to the stats.

Meh.  Clowney is a beast, no doubt, but I am absolutely against giving a player an award simply because he has athletic prowess.  I understand the various reasons why Clowney didn't perform, but you just can not consider him for a defensive award if he didn't perform well defensively.  In my mind, it's like handing out an award for highest scoring player in basketball based on the fact that he could have scored a lot, but in reality didn't.

[The Prowler]

As did Ford arguably.  Most tackles in a game?  6, against Mississippi State.  Second most?  4, against Florida Atlantic.  He didn't record more than 2 sacks in a game, recorded two sacks in a game only twice, and one of them was against Ole Miss.

Again, I'm not saying Sam is fan-fucking-tastic...just that Ford is also not fan-fucking-tastic when compared to Sam, and that both of their stats enjoyed boosts from crappy teams.



That was more in response to TW's post asking why Sam got SEC DPOY, but Ford didn't.



SEC DPOY was announced on December 9, 2013.  Senior Bowl was after that.  BSCCG was after that.  SECCG was two days before that, but I'm assuming they voted prior to the SECCG.

Regardless, Sam had the same number of tackles in the SECCG and bowl game as Ford did in the SECCG and BSCCG.  Ford had 0.5 sacks in the SECCG, Sam had none.  Ford had 2 sacks in the BCSCG, Sam had 1.  But are you really going to ignore the overall season because Ford got 1.5 more sacks in the last two games of the season?  Ford makes some impressive plays later in the season, and we should ignore the fact that he didn't record more than 3 tackles in 83% of the games he played?  The award is for the defensive player of the year, not "best player during a few games near the end of the season."



Meh.  Clowney is a beast, no doubt, but I am absolutely against giving a player an award simply because he has athletic prowess.  I understand the various reasons why Clowney didn't perform, but you just can not consider him for a defensive award if he didn't perform well defensively.  In my mind, it's like handing out an award for highest scoring player in basketball based on the fact that he could have scored a lot, but in reality didn't.

Sam didn't play in the BCSCG, so your argument is void...also, Dee Ford rotated with atleast two other DEs throughout every game.

[WiregrassTiger]

Sam didn't play in the BCSCG, so your argument is void...also, Dee Ford rotated with atleast two other DEs throughout every game.

Ewwwwwww. Hear that? That's the Prowler coming down off the top rope and slamming to the floor. Wham!

[GH2001]

Ewwwwwww. Hear that? That's the Prowler coming down off the top rope and slamming to the floor. Wham!

He's Scott Hall. And he just flicked that toothpick in Eric Bischoff's face. Hey YO.

[Vandy Vol]

Sam didn't play in the BCSCG, so your argument is void...also, Dee Ford rotated with atleast two other DEs throughout every game.

Sorry, meant Sam's bowl game.  The stats for the BCSCG and bowl game are irrelevant to the discussion anyhow, as they occurred after voting for SEC DPOY.

As far as the rotation, you're typically not going to rotate a "bad ass mofo" DE enough to significantly affect his stats.  If your claim is that he's getting that much less playing time due to the rotation, then it suggests he's not the clearly superior player on the team, much less the SEC.

Aside from that, Missouri has a similar rotation.  Markus Golden, Kony Ealy, and Shane Ray got significant playing time and put up good stats, and Brayden Burnett was also in on the rotation, although he got less playing time.

[The Prowler]

Sorry, meant Sam's bowl game.  The stats for the BCSCG and bowl game are irrelevant to the discussion anyhow, as they occurred after voting for SEC DPOY.

As far as the rotation, you're typically not going to rotate a "bad ass mofo" DE enough to significantly affect his stats.  If your claim is that he's getting that much less playing time due to the rotation, then it suggests he's not the clearly superior player on the team, much less the SEC.

Aside from that, Missouri has a similar rotation.  Markus Golden, Kony Ealy, and Shane Ray got significant playing time and put up good stats, and Brayden Burnett was also in on the rotation, although he got less playing time.

It has nothing to do with being a "superior player" and everything to do with Coach Garner rotating the Entire DL, like he has always done. When the white guy is playing in the front four...it means you're in atleast the 3rd set of DEs (Craig Sanders).

[Vandy Vol]

It has nothing to do with being a "superior player" and everything to do with Coach Garner rotating the Entire DL, like he has always done. When the white guy is playing in the front four...it means you're in atleast the 3rd set of DEs (Craig Sanders).

Point being, Missouri rotates the DEs as well, and Sam was sharing significant time with three other DEs, vs. your assertion that Ford rotates with "at least two other DEs."

Again, I'm not stating that Sam was the clear SEC DPOY above every other single player, or that he's some beast like Clowney, but claiming that Ford should get SEC DPOY isn't supported by the stats.  You can claim that he rotated with other DEs, but so did Sam.  You can claim that Sam had weak opponents that helped pad stats, but so did Ford.  You can claim that there were some games against quality opponents where Sam didn't perform well, but those games existed for Ford as well.  There isn't really much of an excuse to explain away why Ford has fewer stats than Sam in most categories for 2013.

[Tiger Wench]

For the record, Counselor:

Then Dee Ford or other better D-linemen got robbed.  SEC DPOY used to actually mean something.  Should not just be stats alone.

I was merely citing Dee Ford (US version) as an example of a superior defensive player. I chose him not as the be-all-end-all but rather because I am an Auburn homer and will tend to use AU players as my first choice. There were obviously better defensive players than Dee Ford over the season as a whole, Moseley being one - my point was that Sam apparently did not deserve the award, as the combine is proving. 

Dee not only rotated, but had some of the biggest defensive plays of the year for Auburn on the biggest stage, Georgia and Turds being two. All of that coupled with his steady improvement over the year should have made him a better candidate than Sam when you look beyond the numbers. The QB record for most passing yards in a game is usually held by some Div II or III guy for the same reason that Sam's stats looked so good.

[Vandy Vol]

I was merely citing Dee Ford (US version) as an example of a superior defensive player. I chose him not as the be-all-end-all but rather because I am an Auburn homer and will tend to use AU players as my first choice. There were obviously better defensive players than Dee Ford over the season as a whole, Moseley being one - my point was that Sam apparently did not deserve the award, as the combine is proving.

Superior player generally?  Possibly.  Superior performance in 2013?  Doesn't appear to be.  Clowney's arguably superior over both of them generally, but I'm not giving him SEC DPOY just because he is usually better or should be better.  It's an award based on their performance for the year...if they don't perform, they don't win.

As far as combine performance goes, maybe he had a bad day.  Doesn't refute what he did or didn't do during the season, or what he will or won't do in the future.  Plenty of players have had amazing combine performances and turned out to be a bust.  Plenty of players have failed to impress at the combine and turned out to be a stud.  One day does not a career make.

Dee not only rotated, but had some of the biggest defensive plays of the year for Auburn on the biggest stage, Georgia and Turds being two. All of that coupled with his steady improvement over the year should have made him a better candidate than Sam when you look beyond the numbers. The QB record for most passing yards in a game is usually held by some Div II or III guy for the same reason that Sam's stats looked so good.

Sam rotated as well, so I don't see why this continues to be brought up as a defense of Ford.

As far as Ford having "big plays" against Georgia and Alabama, again, the award is based on performance for the year, not just a few games or a few plays.  And although there may have been a handful of plays in those two games that were crucial to winning, look at his overall performance for those two games:  2 tackles and 1 sack.

Also, there wasn't "steady improvement" by Ford over the course of the year.  3 tackles against Arkansas, 2 tackles against Tennessee, 1 tackle against Georgia, 1 tackle against Alabama...that's a decline over the last four games of the regular season.  It's a defensive player's job to make tackles, sacks, interceptions, etc.  Those appear in the stats.  If you don't do a good job defensively, the stats reflect that.

Did he improve his play style or tenacity?  Maybe, but if you don't make plays defensively that show up in the stats, then how do you win defensive player of the year?  It'd be like giving an RB offensive player of the year because he showed tenacity and physicality against larger defensive linemen when executing his runs, but wasn't actually able to produce yards or score points.

As far as Div II and Div III players having awesome stats, I wasn't aware Sam was in Div II or III.  That argument doesn't really apply here.

[The Prowler]

Point being, Missouri rotates the DEs as well, and Sam was sharing significant time with three other DEs, vs. your assertion that Ford rotates with "at least two other DEs."

Again, I'm not stating that Sam was the clear SEC DPOY above every other single player, or that he's some beast like Clowney, but claiming that Ford should get SEC DPOY isn't supported by the stats.  You can claim that he rotated with other DEs, but so did Sam.  You can claim that Sam had weak opponents that helped pad stats, but so did Ford.  You can claim that there were some games against quality opponents where Sam didn't perform well, but those games existed for Ford as well.  There isn't really much of an excuse to explain away why Ford has fewer stats than Sam in most categories for 2013.

DEs:
LaDarius Owens
Nosa Eguae (DE & DT)
Kenneth Carter (DE & DT)
Elijah Daniel
Keymiya Harrell
Carl Lawson
Gimel President
Craig Sanders

All, along with Dee Ford, rotated at the DE positions, with two also rotating at the DT positions.

[Godfather]

Listen just because you are defending Sam doesn't mean he is going to let you do him in the butt. 

[dallaswareagle]

Sam didn't play in the BCSCG, so your argument is void...also, Dee Ford rotated with atleast two other DEs throughout every game.

The term butt hurt comes to mind for some reason.

[ssgaufan]

The term butt hurt comes to mind for some reason.

 

[Vandy Vol]

DEs:
LaDarius Owens
Nosa Eguae (DE & DT)
Kenneth Carter (DE & DT)
Elijah Daniel
Keymiya Harrell
Carl Lawson
Gimel President
Craig Sanders

All, along with Dee Ford, rotated at the DE positions, with two also rotating at the DT positions.

Elijah Daniel was a freshman who recorded a whopping 8 tackles for the year.  Gimel President was a redshirt freshman who recorded a whopping 3 tackles for the year.  Keymiya Harrell was a redshirt sophomore who recorded a whopping 2 tackles for the year.  You're really reaching here to try to claim that these guys rotated in such a manner that they took significant playing time away from Ford.  I only referenced Missouri DEs who got significant playing time and were clearly part of a rotation.  I could probably go pull some names of freshmen players who had less than 10 tackles on the season, but that doesn't make them part of a regular rotation.

LaDarious Owens?  Legitimately rotated as DE.  Craig Sanders?  Legitimately rotated as DE.  Carl Lawson?  Legitimately rotated as DE.  Nosa Eguae?  Legitimately rotated as DE, but also spent time playing as DT, so he didn't cut into Ford's playing time as much as the other three.  But those are three DEs and one DE/DT rotating with Ford, just like Sam had three DEs rotating with him (Golden, Ealy, and Ray), plus a fourth redshirt senior DE (Burnett) who at least recorded 12 tackles for the season.  I'd hardly call Burnett part of a "regular" rotation of DEs, but he played more than Daniel, President, and Harrell.

As far as the DE/DT players, I have no clue whether Missouri had a similar scheme to stick DTs at DE.  More often than not, this is largely a matter of defensive packages, and not necessarily a regular rotation.  Taking that into consideration, it's likely that Missouri also rotated DTs at DE, so this is mostly irrelevant.  Especially when you name a guy like Carter who is 280 pounds and is not likely to be a regular part of the DE rotation, but moreso part of the DT rotation, just as AuburnTigers.com indicates.

[Vandy Vol]

Listen just because you are defending Sam doesn't mean he is going to let you do him in the butt.

Duh...that's why I want him to do me in the butt.

[The Prowler]

Elijah Daniel was a freshman who recorded a whopping 8 tackles for the year.  Gimel President was a redshirt freshman who recorded a whopping 3 tackles for the year.  Keymiya Harrell was a redshirt sophomore who recorded a whopping 2 tackles for the year.  You're really reaching here to try to claim that these guys rotated in such a manner that they took significant playing time away from Ford.  I only referenced Missouri DEs who got significant playing time and were clearly part of a rotation.  I could probably go pull some names of freshmen players who had less than 10 tackles on the season, but that doesn't make them part of a regular rotation.

LaDarious Owens?  Legitimately rotated as DE.  Craig Sanders?  Legitimately rotated as DE.  Carl Lawson?  Legitimately rotated as DE.  Nosa Eguae?  Legitimately rotated as DE, but also spent time playing as DT, so he didn't cut into Ford's playing time as much as the other three.  But those are three DEs and one DE/DT rotating with Ford, just like Sam had three DEs rotating with him (Golden, Ealy, and Ray), plus a fourth redshirt senior DE (Burnett) who at least recorded 12 tackles for the season.  I'd hardly call Burnett part of a "regular" rotation of DEs, but he played more than Daniel, President, and Harrell.

As far as the DE/DT players, I have no clue whether Missouri had a similar scheme to stick DTs at DE.  More often than not, this is largely a matter of defensive packages, and not necessarily a regular rotation.  Taking that into consideration, it's likely that Missouri also rotated DTs at DE, so this is mostly irrelevant.  Especially when you name a guy like Carter who is 280 pounds and is not likely to be a regular part of the DE rotation, but moreso part of the DT rotation, just as AuburnTigers.com indicates.

Like I said, ALL of those players played and rotated along with Dee Ford. Don't take production as a reflection of playing time either. You also have no idea if Missouri rotated the DEs as much, nor do you have no idea if they rotated DTs in place of the DEs, therefore you can't use that analogy. I can though, because I know for a fact (watched it with my own two eyes) that the DEs at Auburn all rotated and two of them were also used as DTs.

[WiregrassTiger]

It's obvious that isn't really capable of effectively justifying Sam over Ford. He just likes the way Sam pursues from the back side and can take a hard lick.

[Kaos]

In 1813 Thomas Jefferson wrote a recently discovered letter to the Five Forks Methodists in what is now Maine where he addressed this subject.

The letter reads in part:
...when discourse regarding superior play is undertaken it must follow that such discourse is by nature bound to be subjective, restricted by the personal predjudices of mortal man and influenced by their vagaries. Mere statistical relationships cannot fully  define the greatness of a man. One must take into consideration his competition, his peers, the relative performance of others in his same capacity and the opportunities his position allowed. No two shall ever fully agree on these variables, therefore consensus can rarely be reached. Each then is right in his analysis so long as a case with relative merit can be made. And oh, by the way? I carved the Moses statue and super glued it to the Supreme Court. If I'd known people were going to misinterpret what I meant as a simple preventative measure to disallow a papal king and use it to make children cry by ripping nativity scenes out of public buildings, I would have written it differently so the idiots would make no mistake as to my intent."


Madison, Washington, Hamilton and Nicholas Cage all penned letters of agreement.