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Bammer Recruit DOES NOT have to pass HS Grad Exam

WiregrassTiger

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Re: Bammer Recruit DOES NOT have to pass HS Grad Exam
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2014, 12:05:43 PM »
Care to wager on that... I'm talking testing as well.

I agree about the tests with you, I just don't agree that sliderules are better than supercomputers.
They definitely are better for putting under the foot of a wobbly table. So, there. You are wrong. You can't use a super computer for that.

And what about spanking a kid. A straight edge. A fly swatter. I could go on but I think I've made my point. And, won this debate.
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Snaggletiger

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Re: Bammer Recruit DOES NOT have to pass HS Grad Exam
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2014, 12:12:46 PM »
They definitely are better for putting under the foot of a wobbly table. So, there. You are wrong. You can't use a super computer for that.

And what about spanking a kid. A straight edge. A fly swatter. I could go on but I think I've made my point. And, won this debate.

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Tiger Wench

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Re: Bammer Recruit DOES NOT have to pass HS Grad Exam
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2014, 12:21:27 PM »
The point CCTAU was making (I think) is that when you use a sliderule, you have to understand the underlying concepts to achieve the correct answer.  A computer takes all that away from you.  You can ask a computer to do long division and it gives you an answer - but if pressed, most students don't know how to draw the little division box on a piece of paper and work out the problem long hand - and that's a shame.  You get better results, IMO, from a computer if you understand the concepts, and the computer is just a means to work out the problem more quickly.

I love that my daughter's teacher made them learn to work out long division by hand - our school district teaches the fundamentals, and that makes me very happy.
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Re: Bammer Recruit DOES NOT have to pass HS Grad Exam
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2014, 12:52:20 PM »
Less died back in the early days than in the 80's on.

If you don't know shoot about math, hang your head.

But he bottom line is that we had more people in this country who could solve a problem than we have today. So you can teach for test grades all you want, but the old way created more thinkers and solvers.

The new way created more robots.

We lost the crew of Apollo 1 by trying something monumentally stupid (pressurizing the cabin with pure oxygen) and should have lost the crew of Apollo 13.  Apollo 6 was also a failed mission objective.  We only launched the Saturn V 13 times and had 2 failures in flight (15%).

Shuttle had two failures in 135 flights (1.5%).
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CCTAU

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Re: Bammer Recruit DOES NOT have to pass HS Grad Exam
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2014, 12:58:58 PM »
We lost the crew of Apollo 1 by trying something monumentally stupid (pressurizing the cabin with pure oxygen) and should have lost the crew of Apollo 13.  Apollo 6 was also a failed mission objective.  We only launched the Saturn V 13 times and had 2 failures in flight (15%).

Shuttle had two failures in 135 flights (1.5%).

Apollo 1= 3 deaths?
Apollo 6 = 0 deaths?

two failed missions = ? deaths.

Not to mention, pretty much all of the technology used to fly the shuttles came from the early Apollo missions. There was not a lot of new basic technology (other than computing) that came about. Propulsion remained essentially the same.

We are living today off of the GREAT strides made in technology during that period.
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Five statements of WISDOM
1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity, by legislating the wealth out of prosperity.
2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.
3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.
4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.
5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friends, is the beginning of the end of any nation.

CCTAU

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Re: Bammer Recruit DOES NOT have to pass HS Grad Exam
« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2014, 01:01:39 PM »
The point CCTAU was making (I think) is that when you use a sliderule, you have to understand the underlying concepts to achieve the correct answer.  A computer takes all that away from you.  You can ask a computer to do long division and it gives you an answer - but if pressed, most students don't know how to draw the little division box on a piece of paper and work out the problem long hand - and that's a shame.  You get better results, IMO, from a computer if you understand the concepts, and the computer is just a means to work out the problem more quickly.

I love that my daughter's teacher made them learn to work out long division by hand - our school district teaches the fundamentals, and that makes me very happy.

Yes. And if you have not had a kid bring home some of the new math, you haven't lived.

In 3rd grade I showed my kid long division and he breathed a sigh of relief. "That is so much easier , Dad".

He used that method to check his answers. If only he had continued those thorough ways...

Some basic principles were not broken and did not need fixing. Don't even get me started on reading.
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Five statements of WISDOM
1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity, by legislating the wealth out of prosperity.
2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.
3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.
4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.
5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friends, is the beginning of the end of any nation.

Re: Bammer Recruit DOES NOT have to pass HS Grad Exam
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2014, 01:27:03 PM »
The point CCTAU was making (I think) is that when you use a sliderule, you have to understand the underlying concepts to achieve the correct answer.  A computer takes all that away from you.  You can ask a computer to do long division and it gives you an answer - but if pressed, most students don't know how to draw the little division box on a piece of paper and work out the problem long hand - and that's a shame.  You get better results, IMO, from a computer if you understand the concepts, and the computer is just a means to work out the problem more quickly.

I love that my daughter's teacher made them learn to work out long division by hand - our school district teaches the fundamentals, and that makes me very happy.

AMSTI and the Common Core are both aimed to teach mathematical concepts that are understood at a fundamental level rather than working number patterns to get an answer.

You can write 2+2=4 and not have any clue what it really means.  A good example of current pedagogy is the ole trusty strategy of taking two apples and placing with two other apples and explaining why and how 2+2=4.  That's what is being implemented in the modern classroom.  Teaching students how to get the answer and understand what it means.

Working long division with the funky box does help you get the answer, but does it really teach them what they are doing?  Is it applicable to real life situations? 
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The Guy That Knows Nothing of Hyperbole

Re: Bammer Recruit DOES NOT have to pass HS Grad Exam
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2014, 01:50:07 PM »

Apollo 1= 3 deaths?
Apollo 6 = 0 deaths?

two failed missions = ? deaths.

Not to mention, pretty much all of the technology used to fly the shuttles came from the early Apollo missions. There was not a lot of new basic technology (other than computing) that came about. Propulsion remained essentially the same.

Tons of new technology on the shuttle.  Solid fuel boosters that were reusable, fly by wire control systems, ability to pinpoint controllable landing, reusable craft, some of the first large scale robotics (that big arm that comes out of the shuttle is basically a larger version of the robotic welders you see in car factories), our welding technology was light years ahead of the hand Tig welds they used on Saturn, composites used in manufacturing some of the secondary structural components, etc.

Working on the SLS we reuse everything we can from shuttle, Apollo, Delta, Thor, Titan, Atlas, etc for the real reason we haven't gone back to the moon, $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.  But the stuff that we are using new is way beyond what we used on shuttle.  Some of the ways we are manufacturing and the technology we are using is beyond what would be believable in the old days. 

Quote
We are living today off of the GREAT strides made in technology during that period.

And they lived off great strides made by the Germans building the V2 who lived off the great strides of Goddard in the '20's.  I get irked at work when people try to claim that the old engineers were infallible gods because they didn't use computers.  A computer is a tool, we do the exact same calculations as the guys used to do with a slide rule, we can just do them faster.  It's not Jarvis, I can't just tell my computer to calculate the accelerations from following a particular trajectory and go get a drink,  I still have to put in the same equations that were essentially derived by Robert Goddard in the '20's that the guys were calculating by hand, now I just don't have to worry about forgetting to carry the one because I went and got a drink.  And we can be more accurate about it, so we can build it lighter, faster, and more efficient.

Plus all the computing power that we are able to put us ahead of the curve of the old guys in other ways.  In Saturn the testing budget was immense.  That's why in the mid '60's NASA was eating up nearly 4.5% of the total national budget.  Think about that, Cold War, Vietnam, Bay of Pigs, Cuban Missile Crisis, equal rights movement all happening in that same time frame and we were spending nearly 5% of the budget on NASA.  Now we are using 0.5% of the national budget (of course the budget overall is larger now, in adjusted dollars we are getting 50% of what we got in '66).  Partly  because rather than running to the test stand every time we are not sure about what is going to happen I can do a Finite Element Analysis rather than destructive testing.  I can do Computational Fluid Dynamics analysis rather than immediately running to the wind tunnel.  I can build 3D computer models and build assemblies in CAD space rather than building a prototype. 

Link for the budget numbers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_NASA



TL;DR.  We are not dumber because we are using computers.
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Re: Bammer Recruit DOES NOT have to pass HS Grad Exam
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2014, 01:51:25 PM »
AMSTI and the Common Core are both aimed to teach mathematical concepts that are understood at a fundamental level rather than working number patterns to get an answer.

You can write 2+2=4 and not have any clue what it really means.  A good example of current pedagogy is the ole trusty strategy of taking two apples and placing with two other apples and explaining why and how 2+2=4.  That's what is being implemented in the modern classroom.  Teaching students how to get the answer and understand what it means.

Working long division with the funky box does help you get the answer, but does it really teach them what they are doing?  Is it applicable to real life situations?

As a parent with a struggling math student, it's not helping.  And as far as is it applicable in real life, if it gives the right answer then yes, yes it is.
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You meet a man on the Oregon Trail. He tells you his name is Terry. You laugh and tell him: "That's a girl's name!" Terry shoots you. You have died of dissin' Terry.

Buzz Killington

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Re: Bammer Recruit DOES NOT have to pass HS Grad Exam
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2014, 02:06:14 PM »
So, now the HS Grad Exam is all rocket surgery?
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CCTAU

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Re: Bammer Recruit DOES NOT have to pass HS Grad Exam
« Reply #30 on: February 20, 2014, 02:17:44 PM »
As a parent with a struggling math student, it's not helping.  And as far as is it applicable in real life, if it gives the right answer then yes, yes it is.

But does it really matter if 2 apples and 2 apples equal 4 apples? 2 +2 = 4? Always has, always will.

Real life math. Math for those that will never use math in an advanced way. These are all things that we learned without having to have the fruit exercise. The problem is that educators kept dumbing shit down to help out those that were not catered for, until they watered the shit so far down that people could not even work at McDonald's without a damn picture on the register.

And now we are having to start back over with the fruit.
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Five statements of WISDOM
1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity, by legislating the wealth out of prosperity.
2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.
3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.
4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.
5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friends, is the beginning of the end of any nation.

Re: Bammer Recruit DOES NOT have to pass HS Grad Exam
« Reply #31 on: February 20, 2014, 02:19:27 PM »
As a parent with a struggling math student, it's not helping.  And as far as is it applicable in real life, if it gives the right answer then yes, yes it is.

Hey I'm with you.  I made an A in AP Calculus in high school simply knowing how to make numbers work. 

I think there's a problem in math education.  People think that 8 year olds should understand proofs and theorems.  I think 8 year olds should enjoy playing outside and knowing their times tables and how to divide numbers into parts.  Not everyone's meant to be a rocket scientist. 
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The Guy That Knows Nothing of Hyperbole

Re: Bammer Recruit DOES NOT have to pass HS Grad Exam
« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2014, 02:27:05 PM »
Hey I'm with you.  I made an A in AP Calculus in high school simply knowing how to make numbers work. 

I think there's a problem in math education.  People think that 8 year olds should understand proofs and theorems.  I think 8 year olds should enjoy playing outside and knowing their times tables and how to divide numbers into parts.  Not everyone's meant to be a rocket scientist.

I got extremely aggrieved at core curriculum when my child's third homework assignment in 3rd grade was a lesson in estimating sums.  Why does a third grader need to estimate?  They are being tested on getting answers exactly right one week and taught to estimate the next week.  This was very frustrating for her and aggravating to me.
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You meet a man on the Oregon Trail. He tells you his name is Terry. You laugh and tell him: "That's a girl's name!" Terry shoots you. You have died of dissin' Terry.

CCTAU

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Re: Bammer Recruit DOES NOT have to pass HS Grad Exam
« Reply #33 on: February 20, 2014, 02:27:24 PM »
Hey I'm with you.  I made an A in AP Calculus in high school simply knowing how to make numbers work. 

That is all you needed to know at the time. I never got proofs and theorems until junior year at AU.

But I damn sure knew I better make the numbers work using the methods supplied to me in Statics, Thermo, etc..

I didn't need to know how these affected the real world (cantilevered beam, etc..) until I learned enough to apply what I had learned. Some learn faster than others, but I think we try to cram too much in, in too little time.

Teach the basics, then teach the shortcuts.
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Five statements of WISDOM
1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity, by legislating the wealth out of prosperity.
2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.
3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.
4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.
5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friends, is the beginning of the end of any nation.

Snaggletiger

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Re: Bammer Recruit DOES NOT have to pass HS Grad Exam
« Reply #34 on: February 20, 2014, 03:31:50 PM »
All I need to know is how to count the money.  Cha-ching
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Buzz Killington

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Re: Bammer Recruit DOES NOT have to pass HS Grad Exam
« Reply #35 on: February 20, 2014, 03:35:17 PM »
All I need to know is how to count the money.  Cha-ching

#struggleoverwit
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Now I may be an idiot, but there is one thing I am not, sir, and that, sir, is an idiot.

Vandy Vol

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Re: Bammer Recruit DOES NOT have to pass HS Grad Exam
« Reply #36 on: February 20, 2014, 03:44:38 PM »
The point CCTAU was making (I think) is that when you use a sliderule, you have to understand the underlying concepts to achieve the correct answer.

While true, the same can be said about a slide rule, which is nothing more than a mechanical computer.  It gives you shortcuts for a variety of functions that you should know in order to have an overall better grasp of what you're doing.  A computer does far more than a slide rule, yes, but it's still the same basic concept:  shortcuts.

And as THS pointed out, shortcuts are abound.  Being able to recite 2+2=4 doesn't address the actual underlying concepts of addition and how it's applied in the real world, but just because you're not consciously thinking about that every time you do addition, multiplication, division, linear trigonometry, etc., does not mean you're ignorant of the underlying concepts or their application.

Shortcuts have been used in math and science for forever, it's just the complexity of them that has changed.  I don't think these shortcuts are detrimental, so long as the underlying concept and the application of the shortcuts are understood as you mentioned.
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Re: Bammer Recruit DOES NOT have to pass HS Grad Exam
« Reply #37 on: February 20, 2014, 04:04:03 PM »
My youngest is in 3rd grade this year.  While I'll admit, the math homework is a lot different than having 100 division problems to complete, I like what they are doing.  Most of the math work is reading problems and finding solutions. Not as simple as 3+3=6. By looking at 5x5, he automatically knows the answer and doesn't have to think. By making that same question (5x5) into a word problem, he has to read, think and conclude. Sometimes he has questions, but I'd rather him have to actually think a problem out rather than know the answer by repetition alone. 
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WiregrassTiger

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Re: Bammer Recruit DOES NOT have to pass HS Grad Exam
« Reply #38 on: February 20, 2014, 04:08:50 PM »
We are delving closer and closer to a territory in this discussion than most (if not all) of you have zero business discussing. Rocket Science.

Let's face it. I am very qualified to inform and educate on a variety of subjects and rocket science happens to be one of my four tays.

If you have any questions, feel free to post and I'll get back with you ASAP, if I'm not too busy on one of my big projects.
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Godfather

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Re: Bammer Recruit DOES NOT have to pass HS Grad Exam
« Reply #39 on: February 20, 2014, 04:16:51 PM »
We are delving closer and closer to a territory in this discussion than most (if not all) of you have zero business discussing. Rocket Science.

Let's face it. I am very qualified to inform and educate on a variety of subjects and rocket science happens to be one of my four tays.

If you have any questions, feel free to post and I'll get back with you ASAP, if I'm not too busy on one of my big projects.

Like how to get 3 boxes up a flight of stairs with out scratching the walls?
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