Was I the only one that took offense to theCoke commercial during the super bow?

[Townhallsavoy]

Sure, you have anecdotal cases in which people learn English and take pride in doing so, but most immigrants are not like that, then or now.

Maybe it is just anecdotal, but working with hundreds of hispanic students over the course of six years, I saw a vast amount of immigrants learning English and taking pride in doing so.

[Vandy Vol]

I disagree with this.

If anything, the reverse is true.

Studies say otherwise.

http://mumford.albany.edu/children/reports/language_assimilation/language_assimilation_brief.pdf


Overall, most immigrants from non-English speaking countries never learn to speak English well.  Their descendants do, but not them.

I'm not pointing this out in an attempt to degrade or blame immigrants, nor am I saying that every immigrant fits this mold.  All I'm saying is that, for the most part, non-English speaking immigrants who come here typically do not learn to speak English well.  Those immigrants who are more highly educated and more financially well-off (such as you, Kaos, and I would be more likely to know) will obviously have a higher probability of knowing or learning English, but as stated, those anecdotal cases don't represent the overall statistics.

[Townhallsavoy]

Studies say otherwise.

http://mumford.albany.edu/children/reports/language_assimilation/language_assimilation_brief.pdf


Overall, most immigrants from non-English speaking countries never learn to speak English well.  Their descendants do, but not them.

I'm not pointing this out in an attempt to degrade or blame immigrants, nor am I saying that every immigrant fits this mold.  All I'm saying is that, for the most part, non-English speaking immigrants who come here typically do not learn to speak English well.  Those immigrants who are more highly educated and more financially well-off (such as you, Kaos, and I would be more likely to know) will obviously have a higher probability of knowing or learning English, but as stated, those anecdotal cases don't represent the overall statistics.

...speak English well.

I don't think the expectation is for them to become professorial in their speech.  The majority of Americans don't actually speak English well.

As long as they can communicate basic needs and receive basic commands, I consider that a success. 

[Vandy Vol]

Maybe it is just anecdotal, but working with hundreds of hispanic students over the course of six years, I saw a vast amount of immigrants learning English and taking pride in doing so.

Students, as in children?  If they're forced to be in an educational institution where they learn English, then yes, of course they're going to learn English.  Although they may not have been born in America, they would be more akin to second generation immigrants that are more often than not bilingual according to studies.

If you're referring to adults that you're teaching, then it's still no different.  I'm not saying that absolutely no immigrants take the time to learn English.  I'm saying that, by and large, first generation immigrants do not ever learn English well, and some never learn it at all.  Again, the studies show this.  Linguistic assimilation usually occurs over generations.

...speak English well.

I don't think the expectation is for them to become professorial in their speech.  The majority of Americans don't actually speak English well.

As long as they can communicate basic needs and receive basic commands, I consider that a success. 

Again, my entire point was that immigrants back then assimilated linguistically just as they do now:  over generations.  We can argue about how well immigrants learn the language over time, but it's clear that a child of a first generation immigrant is going to grow up with English and generally know the language way better than their parent.

The claim by GH was that people used to assimilate into America, and now they don't.  Linguistically, this isn't the case.  Immigrants back then continued to use their native language and did not take the time to perfect their English, just as they do now.  The only time that we see real improvement with immigrants' English speaking skills is as their descendants are born and learn English.  The first generation immigrants still speak broken English, and sometimes don't know anything other than the basics like you mentioned.  Linguistic assimilation still by and large occurs over generations; the "good ole days" weren't a time when immigrants bowed down to American superiority and studied their asses off just to "assimilate."

[Vandy Vol]

And in case it's not clear, I'm using the term "first generation immigrant" to refer to an adult who moves to America.  The study that I linked to actually uses that term to refer to the child (6-15) of an immigrant who was not born in America, but is now here with its parent(s).  This explains why the "first generation immigrants" in the study have high percentages (56% - 87.2%, depending on country of origin) of people who are classified as speaking English well, because they are children who are being forced to learn the language.

However, the study acknowledges that "[r]elatively few people fluently speak a language learned only in school or during adulthood," and the overall trend shows that the level of fluency gets better and bilingualism disappears with each generation.

Again, my only overall point was that linguistic assimilation has always primarily occurred over generations.  The majority of immigrants weren't hunched over English books in libraries in the 1920s trying their hardest to work on verb conjugation to please their American overlords, and the 2000s isn't an era of communism in which immigrants refuse to learn English and try to hijack our freedom.  The patterns and methods of linguistic assimilation of immigrants have actually been pretty similar for the past 100+ years.

[AUChizad]

And in case it's not clear, I'm using the term "first generation immigrant" to refer to an adult who moves to America.  The study that I linked to actually uses that term to refer to the child (6-15) of an immigrant who was not born in America, but is now here with its parent(s).  This explains why the "first generation immigrants" in the study have high percentages (56% - 87.2%, depending on country of origin) of people who are classified as speaking English well, because they are children who are being forced to learn the language.

However, the study acknowledges that "[r]elatively few people fluently speak a language learned only in school or during adulthood," and the overall trend shows that the level of fluency gets better and bilingualism disappears with each generation.

Again, my only overall point was that linguistic assimilation has always primarily occurred over generations.  The majority of immigrants weren't hunched over English books in libraries in the 1920s trying their hardest to work on verb conjugation to please their American overlords, and the 2000s isn't an era of communism in which immigrants refuse to learn English and try to hijack our freedom.  The patterns and methods of linguistic assimilation of immigrants have actually been pretty similar for the past 100+ years.

Purely anecdotal, but my aforementioned in-laws are more like what you describe as 2nd generation. They are bilingual. My father in-law has a pretty heavy accent, but he in no way speaks broken English. My wife can barely speak Spanish. She feels like she "sounds stupid" when she tries. She's technically 1st generation American. Most likely, Spanish will play no role at all in our kids' lives.

Granted, her parents weren't uneducated when they came here as you qualified, and English is a required part of a Puerto Rican education.

I'm also thinking of the dozens of friends of theirs I know who also emigrated from various Spanish-speaking countries (Puerto Rico, Cuba, Argentina that I know of). Again, literally zero of them have any difficulty whatsoever speaking English. And their kids all have absolutely zero accent when speaking English, and most can't speak Spanish at all, or at least any better than someone who's taken a high school Spanish class.

Anecdotal, sure, but I find it hard to believe that "most" immigrants in this country bull-headedly refuse to learn English.

[CCTAU]

Purely anecdotal, but my aforementioned in-laws are more like what you describe as 2nd generation. They are bilingual. My father in-law has a pretty heavy accent, but he in no way speaks broken English. My wife can barely speak Spanish. She feels like she "sounds stupid" when she tries. She's technically 1st generation American. Most likely, Spanish will play no role at all in our kids' lives.

Granted, her parents weren't uneducated when they came here as you qualified, and English is a required part of a Puerto Rican education.

I'm also thinking of the dozens of friends of theirs I know who also emigrated from various Spanish-speaking countries (Puerto Rico, Cuba, Argentina that I know of). Again, literally zero of them have any difficulty whatsoever speaking English. And their kids all have absolutely zero accent when speaking English, and most can't speak Spanish at all, or at least any better than someone who's taken a high school Spanish class.

Anecdotal, sure, but I find it hard to believe that "most" immigrants in this country bull-headedly refuse to learn English.

And do any of your relatives sing America the beautiful in Spanish?

Probably not. As do not any other immigrants using a language other than English. And that is the point!

[Vandy Vol]

Anecdotal, sure, but I find it hard to believe that "most" immigrants in this country bull-headedly refuse to learn English.

I don't think it's necessarily an issue of bull-headedly refusing.  Second languages become more difficult to pick up the older you get.  This is why adult immigrants who move to America often create their own communities, newspapers, etc.  They will pick up English as they continue to live here, but ultimately they continue to use their native language in as many instances as they can because it's easier for them.  They learn what they have to, but most won't become fully assimilated as far as language goes.  Their descendants, however, will eventually become bilingual and even monolingual with each generation.

[GH2001]

Aight bitches...its signing day so the Commies vs Klansmen battle is gonna have to go on hiatus for a day  mmmmk?   

[Kaos]

Aight bitches...its signing day so the Commies vs Klansmen battle is gonna have to go on hiatus for a day  mmmmk?   

No.