Because Global Warming

[AUChizad]

Actually, I don't care enough to devote 40 minutes of my time to hearing about it.  You keep beating that "sahns" drum.  I'm coming from a completely different angle.  This isn't about "sahns" it's about ECONOMICS.   

Keep on believing what you want to believe and working hard to reduce your carbon footprint.  We can reconvene this discussion in 20 years or so and see who's right.

The world's not going to explode in 20 years. No one's saying that. It will continue on the destructive path we've been on since the industrial revolution.

Since you guys refuse to spend 40 minutes being educated on the matter in full context, I thought this was particularly relevant to one of the uninformed arguments that continuously pops up on here.

Only two minutes of brain hurt.



And by the way, I'm not one of these hippies freaking out to reduce my carbon footprint. I don't drive a Hybrid (although my next car may be purely for economical reasons), I don't recycle, and I generally don't give much of a fuck about all of this. But I don't deny the scientific evidence and consensus that it is happening.

In my opinion, what can or should be done about it is allowing clean energy alternatives to enter the market, and as is the case with a Hybrid car or an LED lightbulb, "green" is just a nice bonus side effect to economical.

[WiregrassTiger]

I think they should just meet in a hot tub and fudge it out.

I don't know who I would pick in that one. I've never fucked Ogre.

[AUChizad]

You see man-made global warming man-made climate change as the gospel truth.  I see it as an anti-capitalist movement designed to stunt economic growth and grow government.

How? Who's intervening with Capitalism and preventing clean energy alternatives to enter the free market? Oh yeah, the government.

And why is that? Oh yeah, the fossil fuel industry donations, particularly to Republicans, keep them in power.

Who's preventing Exxon and BP and Shell and Mobil et al from exploring clean energy alternatives? That's like saying we shouldn't have the Internet because the Newspaper industry refuses to evolve to survive.

[dallaswareagle]

The world's not going to explode in 20 years. No one's saying that. It will continue on the destructive path we've been on since the industrial revolution.

Since you guys refuse to spend 40 minutes being educated on the matter in full context, I thought this was particularly relevant to one of the uninformed arguments that continuously pops up on here.

Only two minutes of brain hurt.



And by the way, I'm not one of these hippies freaking out to reduce my carbon footprint. I don't drive a Hybrid (although my next car may be purely for economical reasons), I don't recycle, and I generally don't give much of a fuck about all of this. But I don't deny the scientific evidence and consensus that it is happening.

In my opinion, what can or should be done about it is allowing clean energy alternatives to enter the market, and as is the case with a Hybrid car or an LED lightbulb, "green" is just a nice bonus side effect to economical.

Was told there would be no educmaction when I got on here.

[Saniflush]

The world's not going to explode in 20 years. No one's saying that. It will continue on the destructive path we've been on since the industrial revolution.

Since you guys refuse to spend 40 minutes being educated on the matter in full context, I thought this was particularly relevant to one of the uninformed arguments that continuously pops up on here.

Only two minutes of brain hurt.



And by the way, I'm not one of these hippies freaking out to reduce my carbon footprint. I don't drive a Hybrid (although my next car may be purely for economical reasons), I don't recycle, and I generally don't give much of a fuck about all of this. But I don't deny the scientific evidence and consensus that it is happening.

In my opinion, what can or should be done about it is allowing clean energy alternatives to enter the market, and as is the case with a Hybrid car or an LED lightbulb, "green" is just a nice bonus side effect to economical.

He killed Pluto....his argument is invalid.

[WiregrassTiger]

How? Who's intervening with Capitalism and preventing clean dicks from being sucked by me on the free market? Oh yeah, the government.

And why is that? Oh yeah, the fossil fuel industry donations, particularly to Republicans, is what forced me onto the streets to give blow jobs away for $5. During a Democratic administration, I generally get $7.

Who's preventing oil field workers at Exxon and BP and Shell and Mobil et al from exploring my poop chute and having their way with me? That's like saying we shouldn't have the Internet because of the gay porn pictures of me that are all over the place.

[CCTAU]

How? Who's intervening with Capitalism and preventing clean energy alternatives to enter the free market? Oh yeah, the government.

And why is that? Oh yeah, the fossil fuel industry donations, particularly to Republicans, keep them in power.

Who's preventing Exxon and BP and Shell and Mobil et al from exploring clean energy alternatives? That's like saying we shouldn't have the Internet because the Newspaper industry refuses to evolve to survive.

You know, if you believed in Jesus Christ as much as you believe in this malarkey, you could save more people.

[AUTailgatingRules]

In my opinion, what can or should be done about it is allowing clean energy alternatives to enter the market, and as is the case with a Hybrid car or an LED lightbulb, "green" is just a nice bonus side effect to economical.

Here is where you start to lose.  The only way the LED lightbulb had a chance in the market, was for the government to outlaw the incandescent bulb.  Car makers get a subsidy from the government for providing Hybrid and Electric vehicles.  If the cost of these vehicles were left un subsidized, the market would never buy them.

I have no problem with alternative energy coming into the marketplace.  If it can compete on it's own merits and the public wants to pay extra for it, then Hooray for them.  If it takes government money (my tax money) to force their mandated green agenda down my throat, then no thanks

[dallaswareagle]

Here is where you start to lose.  The only way the LED lightbulb had a chance in the market, was for the government to outlaw the incandescent bulb.  Car makers get a subsidy from the government for providing Hybrid and Electric vehicles.  If the cost of these vehicles were left un subsidized, the market would never buy them.

I have no problem with alternative energy coming into the marketplace.  If it can compete on it's own merits and the public wants to pay extra for it, then Hooray for them.  If it takes government money (my tax money) to force their mandated green agenda down my throat,(and then they go bankrupt) then no thanks

added

[AUChizad]

Here is where you start to lose.  The only way the LED lightbulb had a chance in the market, was for the government to outlaw the incandescent bulb.  Car makers get a subsidy from the government for providing Hybrid and Electric vehicles.  If the cost of these vehicles were left un subsidized, the market would never buy them.

I have no problem with alternative energy coming into the marketplace.  If it can compete on it's own merits and the public wants to pay extra for it, then Hooray for them.  If it takes government money (my tax money) to force their mandated green agenda down my throat, then no thanks

I'm saying that while these things cost a little bit more money upfront, long-term they're more economical for the individual. Dumb people have a hard time understanding long-term economics. It's why they run up credit card bills through the roof and go to check-cashing places.

Specifically, I meant CFL, not LED. The energy efficient CFL bulb costs $3.95 instead of $1.25, but lasts 10x longer and uses a quarter of the energy throughout that 10x longer life. So is that $2.75 extra per bulb really hurting you when it takes $12.50 worth of incandescent bulbs to match the lifetime and saving you a couple thousand on your energy bill for the 10 incandescents vs. the 1 CFL? Same with hybrid cars and gasoline savings.

[DnATL]

chizad just wants an electric vehicle so he can plug it in to his neighbor's outlet (napster-style, not -style)

Need to change his name to AUChadsteinberg

[Kaos]

I'm saying that while these things cost a little bit more money upfront, long-term they're more economical for the individual. Dumb people have a hard time understanding long-term economics. It's why they run up credit card bills through the roof and go to check-cashing places.

Specifically, I meant CFL, not LED. The energy efficient CFL bulb costs $3.95 instead of $1.25, but lasts 10x longer and uses a quarter of the energy throughout that 10x longer life. So is that $2.75 extra per bulb really hurting you when it takes $12.50 worth of incandescent bulbs to match the lifetime and saving you a couple thousand on your energy bill for the 10 incandescents vs. the 1 CFL? Same with hybrid cars and gasoline savings.

I'm not a fan of Canadian football.

[DnATL]

I'm not a fan of Canadian football.

You can call the "rouge" a "single", if it makes you feel better

[dallaswareagle]

The Arctic Ocean is warming up, icebergs are growing scarcer and in some places the seals are finding the water too hot, according to a report to the Commerce Department yesterday from Consulafft, at Bergen, Norway.


                           

Reports from fishermen, seal hunters, and explorers all point to a radical change in climate conditions and hitherto unheard-of temperatures in the Arctic zone. Exploration expeditions report that scarcely any ice has been met as far north as 81 degrees 29 minutes.

 

Soundings to a depth of 3,100 meters showed the gulf stream still very warm. Great masses of ice have been replaced by moraines of earth and stones, the report continued, while at many points well known glaciers have entirely disappeared.

 Very few seals and no white fish are found in the eastern Arctic, while vast shoals of herring and smelts which have never before ventured so far north, are being encountered in the old seal fishing grounds. Within a few years it is predicted that due to the ice melt the sea will rise and make most coastal cities uninhabitable.




 




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Washington Post ...........November 2, 1922


 

[CCTAU]

I'm saying that while these things cost a little bit more money upfront, long-term they're more economical for the individual. Dumb people have a hard time understanding long-term economics. It's why they run up credit card bills through the roof and go to check-cashing places.

Specifically, I meant CFL, not LED. The energy efficient CFL bulb costs $3.95 instead of $1.25, but lasts 10x longer and uses a quarter of the energy throughout that 10x longer life. So is that $2.75 extra per bulb really hurting you when it takes $12.50 worth of incandescent bulbs to match the lifetime and saving you a couple thousand on your energy bill for the 10 incandescents vs. the 1 CFL? Same with hybrid cars and gasoline savings.

I've used several of these over the years. They tend to burn out more than advertised. Btu I shoudl spend more on untested technology just to say I am green?


When these things ar proven to be better, the market will easily support it. But for the government to ban the production of one product just to promote another...well, that is not American.
 
And that just proves that if you believe in global warming, you are not a true American. You are a communist.

[GH2001]

The Arctic Ocean is warming up, icebergs are growing scarcer and in some places the seals are finding the water too hot, according to a report to the Commerce Department yesterday from Consulafft, at Bergen, Norway.


                           

Reports from fishermen, seal hunters, and explorers all point to a radical change in climate conditions and hitherto unheard-of temperatures in the Arctic zone. Exploration expeditions report that scarcely any ice has been met as far north as 81 degrees 29 minutes.

 

Soundings to a depth of 3,100 meters showed the gulf stream still very warm. Great masses of ice have been replaced by moraines of earth and stones, the report continued, while at many points well known glaciers have entirely disappeared.

 Very few seals and no white fish are found in the eastern Arctic, while vast shoals of herring and smelts which have never before ventured so far north, are being encountered in the old seal fishing grounds. Within a few years it is predicted that due to the ice melt the sea will rise and make most coastal cities uninhabitable.




 




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Washington Post ...........November 2, 1922

And then 30 years later, we were heading to an Ice Age.

Same narrative, different generation.

[Kaos]

The Arctic Ocean is warming up, icebergs are growing scarcer and in some places the seals are finding the water too hot, according to a report to the Commerce Department yesterday from Consulafft, at Bergen, Norway.


                           

Reports from fishermen, seal hunters, and explorers all point to a radical change in climate conditions and hitherto unheard-of temperatures in the Arctic zone. Exploration expeditions report that scarcely any ice has been met as far north as 81 degrees 29 minutes.

 

Soundings to a depth of 3,100 meters showed the gulf stream still very warm. Great masses of ice have been replaced by moraines of earth and stones, the report continued, while at many points well known glaciers have entirely disappeared.

 Very few seals and no white fish are found in the eastern Arctic, while vast shoals of herring and smelts which have never before ventured so far north, are being encountered in the old seal fishing grounds. Within a few years it is predicted that due to the ice melt the sea will rise and make most coastal cities uninhabitable.




 




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Washington Post ...........November 2, 1922

[Townhallsavoy]

Not so much boom:

https://web.archive.org/web/20100707124649/http://www.globalcoral.org/LONG%20TERM%20ARCTIC%20ICE%20TRENDS%20AND%20GLOBAL%20WARMING.1.pdf

I did read an interesting article the other day that discusses the rhetoric accommodations that occur when shifting from a science audience to a layperson audience specifically with James Hansen's congressional testimony about climate change in 1986, 1987, and 1988.  It's this testimony and report that is considered the "godfather" of climate change policy and discussion today.  You can read the article here:

http://digitalcommons.calpoly.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1014&context=comm_fac

When accommodating science as a rhetorician, the genre shift alters the information in a way that honestly is less scientific and more headline news.  In 1986, Hansen presented the results from numerous scientific studies and presented them in a way that scientists would understand.  Many more qualifying statements were used and thus due to the inability for the audience to comprehend the esoteric language and implications of Hansen's testimony, his appeal was denied. 

In 1987 he tried again and again failed. 

In 1988 he changed his tactic.  He spoke more concretely about climate change and prepared a statement that didn't so much discuss the forensic side of the scientific study.  He merely affirmed his findings using adjectives, definitive statements and concise language that would appeal to congress.  This time, he was successful.

I wonder how the debate would be nowadays if the rhetoric of climate change was more scientific and less "Does Climate Change Mean Automobiles Are Evil?  Leading Scientists Say YES!" 

[CCTAU]

I am now a believer. It's not just the cows...

[GH2001]

Its this simple.....

Does Climate Change happen? YES.

Is it because of Billy Bob's 1988 Chevy Blazer? NO.

It happens. Its been happening. As Kaos has said until he is blue in the KISS cat face, its cyclical. Always has been. Disasters, temp changes, cooling, warming, ice melting, ice freezing back, etc etc. This is what the Earth does to right itself. News flash - we also tilt. And rotate.

A few may not be old enough to remember, but as a young un in Jr High in the 80s, they tried to scare the shit out of us about the Ozone Layer and CFC's. That too was a scare that died out. Why? Well..it wasn't so bad as they thought. It would take millions of cases of hairspray being emitted per square mile to have any impact. Ozone is like anything in the atmosphere...its cyclical. Volcanos erupt sometimes...then sometimes they don't. Same with Earthquakes. Not sure why its so hard to believe that Earth is very very powerful and has many natural process that go on without our notice. Sometimes they produce a result that isn't exactly "friendly" to us humans. Not much we can do about it.

And all day long, people profit off of this fear mongering. And then others use it as a political weapon to implement certain environmental agendas that suits them and to satisfy their wacko donors and environmental lobbyists. If Al Gore really really believed what he was saying, would he really live the lifestyle that he does? (it costs as much to power his house per day as it does an average subdivision, plus he flies everywhere)