What Should Happen At Penn State?

Pell City Tiger · « **Reply #20 on:** July 16, 2012, 08:55:41 PM »

They should be made to host the Big Brothers national convention for the next 10 years or so.

The Prowler · « **Reply #21 on:** July 16, 2012, 11:04:58 PM »

So, think Coach Roof is enjoying his new job? He's probably thinking he should've stayed down in Central or South Florida.

Saniflush · « **Reply #22 on:** July 17, 2012, 08:02:48 AM »

Quote from: The Prowler on July 16, 2012, 11:04:58 PM

So, think Coach Roof is enjoying his new job? He's probably thinking he should've stayed down in Central or South Florida.

If there was any place in the country where you could have a really shitty defense and get by with it for the next couple of years it will be there.

wesfau2 · « **Reply #23 on:** July 17, 2012, 10:03:18 AM »

Emmert sounds serious:

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8171574/jerry-sandusky-scandal-ncaa-president-mark-emmert-signals-heavy-sanctions-penn-state

"I've never seen anything as egregious as this in terms of just overall conduct and behavior inside a university and hope never to see it again," Emmert said during the interview. "What the appropriate penalties are, if there are determinations of violations, we'll have to decide.

"We'll hold in abeyance all of those decisions until we've actually decided what we want to do with the actual charges should there be any. And I don't want to take anything off the table."

GH2001 · « **Reply #24 on:** July 17, 2012, 10:40:48 AM »

Quote from: CCTAU on July 13, 2012, 09:50:44 AM

This is where I lean. The NCAA already thinks that they are the end all to be all. Do we really need to give them the power to venture into these waters. Many of you are so upset that you are willing to allow this to happen to get to what you perceive as justice. Don't fall into the "well its for the kids" mindset. When we start doing that, we start compromising the rights. This will work itself out in court. If any actions need to be taken against PSU, it should come from an education standpoint, not an athletic one. This is not within the NCAA's sphere. So lets not allow them to enter it.

Except this happened on the Athletic Dept's watch. That gives them a vested interest. I don't like the NCAA either but there was lack of Institutional Control here. The football program was a device and this guy was a coach and member of the athletic dept. They are interconnected at this point and I do think the NCAA has a say.

Tiger Wench · « **Reply #25 on:** July 17, 2012, 11:33:02 AM »

Quote from: GH2001 on July 17, 2012, 10:40:48 AM

Except this happened on the Athletic Dept's watch. That gives them a vested interest. I don't like the NCAA either but there was lack of Institutional Control here. The football program was a device and this guy was a coach and member of the athletic dept. They are interconnected at this point and I do think the NCAA has a say.

But this was a criminal action - CCTAU is right. This is for the courts to manage. Penn State is a state agency - just because it is a college makes no difference. If this coverup had happened at the Department of Public Works, the NCAA would not be involved. If this had been a pedophile in the Penn State Communications Department, the NCAA would not be involved. Just because it was the Athletic Department matters not. No recruiting was affected, no illegal benefits were received by players, etc. The NCAA needs to stay the hell out of this mess.

Godfather · « **Reply #26 on:** July 17, 2012, 11:45:33 AM »

Quote from: Tiger Wench on July 17, 2012, 11:33:02 AM

But this was a criminal action - CCTAU is right. This is for the courts to manage. Penn State is a state agency - just because it is a college makes no difference. If this coverup had happened at the Department of Public Works, the NCAA would not be involved. If this had been a pedophile in the Penn State Communications Department, the NCAA would not be involved. Just because it was the Athletic Department matters not. No recruiting was affected, no illegal benefits were received by players, etc. The NCAA needs to stay the hell out of this mess.

Agree

wesfau2 · « **Reply #27 on:** July 17, 2012, 12:11:24 PM »

Quote from: Tiger Wench on July 17, 2012, 11:33:02 AM

. No recruiting was affected, no illegal benefits were received by players, etc. The NCAA needs to stay the hell out of this mess.

You can make the argument that recruiting, if not bolstered, was at least allowed to proceed at the status quo due to the coverup. The recruits might have been much less likely to come play for PSU in the wake of Sandusky's ouster (with full disclosure) in 1998. The HC, AD and President of the University conspired to conceal the news to preserve the football machine at PSU.

That's a competitive advantage of sorts.

Godfather · « **Reply #28 on:** July 17, 2012, 12:43:45 PM »

Quote from: wesfau2 on July 17, 2012, 12:11:24 PM

You can make the argument that recruiting, if not bolstered, was at least allowed to proceed at the status quo due to the coverup. The recruits might have been much less likely to come play for PSU in the wake of Sandusky's ouster (with full disclosure) in 1998. The HC, AD and President of the University conspired to conceal the news to preserve the football machine at PSU.

That's a competitive advantage of sorts.

Saniflush · « **Reply #29 on:** July 17, 2012, 12:57:18 PM »

Quote from: Godfather on July 17, 2012, 12:43:45 PM

You got some coke?

GH2001 · « **Reply #30 on:** July 17, 2012, 02:20:51 PM »

Quote from: wesfau2 on July 17, 2012, 12:11:24 PM

You can make the argument that recruiting, if not bolstered, was at least allowed to proceed at the status quo due to the coverup. The recruits might have been much less likely to come play for PSU in the wake of Sandusky's ouster (with full disclosure) in 1998. The HC, AD and President of the University conspired to conceal the news to preserve the football machine at PSU.

That's a competitive advantage of sorts.

Yep. The Freeh report explicitly stated that they covered it up for this very reason. They didn't want the PR and bad press because it would make the program look bad.

Lack of Institutional Control - the NCAA can hand down penalty with this as a reason if it's related to the Athletic Dept.

JR4AU · « **Reply #31 on:** July 17, 2012, 04:28:21 PM »

Quote from: Kaos on July 13, 2012, 07:27:33 AM

Scarbinsky disagrees and his argument is compelling if emotionally charged.

http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2012/07/penn_states_football_problem_d.html#incart_river_default

All Bama fans want Paterno destroyed and disgraced. Then they'll turn their venom on Bobby. The goal is to shove Bryant's moldy carcass back to the top.

If they get involved here, it opens the door to get involved every time a player or coach gets arrested for anything. Just like the Auburn football players getting shot is not about football just because they played football, the PSU scandal isn't about football either.

wesfau2 · « **Reply #32 on:** July 17, 2012, 04:34:09 PM »

Quote from: JR4AU on July 17, 2012, 04:28:21 PM

If they get involved here, it opens the door to get involved every time a player or coach gets arrested for anything. Just like the Auburn football players getting shot is not about football just because they played football, the PSU scandal isn't about football either.

I agree that isolated incidents of player misconduct (or even a rash of arrests) should not be the province of the NCAA.

But to ignore the role that the President, Vice-President, AD and HC played in this situation is to be willfully blind. Their cover-up was tied directly to the football program and the consequences of exposing Sandusky.

Tiger Wench · « **Reply #33 on:** July 17, 2012, 04:40:09 PM »

Quote from: wesfau2 on July 17, 2012, 04:34:09 PM

I agree that isolated incidents of player misconduct (or even a rash of arrests) should not be the province of the NCAA.

But to ignore the role that the President, Vice-President, AD and HC played in this situation is to be willfully blind. Their cover-up was tied directly to the football program and the consequences of exposing Sandusky.

Then they should be punished by their employer - the Governor/the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, and by the State Attorney General's office. Again, had this happened in the PSU Education Department, where, let's say, a 35 year tenured prof was molesting kids in the on campus day care, they probably would have covered it up then too. It was as much about protecting Penn State in general as it was about protecting the football program. The NCAA has no business getting involved in a criminal matter. NONE. And if I were the Attorney General of PA? I would tell them to back the fuck off and not interfere with my investigation.

wesfau2 · « **Reply #34 on:** July 17, 2012, 04:48:22 PM »

Quote from: Tiger Wench on July 17, 2012, 04:40:09 PM

Then they should be punished by their employer - the Governor/the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, and by the State Attorney General's office. Again, had this happened in the PSU Education Department, where, let's say, a 35 year tenured prof was molesting kids in the on campus day care, they probably would have covered it up then too. It was as much about protecting Penn State in general as it was about protecting the football program. The NCAA has no business getting involved in a criminal matter. NONE. And if I were the Attorney General of PA? I would tell them to back the fuck off and not interfere with my investigation.

I'm not necessarily advocating for NCAA involvement, but I do take issue with the oft-repeated take that this "isn't a football issue."

Townhallsavoy · « **Reply #35 on:** July 17, 2012, 04:54:04 PM »

Quote from: wesfau2 on July 17, 2012, 04:48:22 PM

I'm not necessarily advocating for NCAA involvement, but I do take issue with the oft-repeated take that this "isn't a football issue."

Agreed.

This is most definitely a football issue. The moment people began protecting Sandusky in order to protect the football program, it became an NCAA issue. Whether or not that should happen now or later is a different conversation.

Godfather · « **Reply #36 on:** July 17, 2012, 04:56:15 PM »

Quote from: wesfau2 on July 17, 2012, 04:48:22 PM

I'm not necessarily advocating for NCAA involvement, but I do take issue with the oft-repeated take that this "isn't a football issue."

Its a football issue, I agree, but more than that as well. Again I am back and forth, because this hurts a bunch of people who weren't involved. What about staff that work in the athletic department, they are out of work because of it. I don't know what you do.

JR4AU · « **Reply #37 on:** July 17, 2012, 05:02:39 PM »

Quote from: wesfau2 on July 17, 2012, 04:34:09 PM

I agree that isolated incidents of player misconduct (or even a rash of arrests) should not be the province of the NCAA.

But to ignore the role that the President, Vice-President, AD and HC played in this situation is to be willfully blind. Their cover-up was tied directly to the football program and the consequences of exposing Sandusky.

A somewhat compelling argument, but I counter with the old "slippery slope" rebuttal. The NCAA has never gotten involved in illegal activity not directly tied to athletics. The argument that they covered it up to protect the program, isn't the same as say, gambling on PSU games. It was in and around the football program, but it's not, IMHO, "football related". Is it institutionally related? Yes, but would the NCAA get involved if this had been a physics prof that got caught doing a kid in that athletic facilities?

I don't feel strongly enough to argue it over and over, that's just my opinion. I could be persuaded to see it your way, but as of yet, the argument falls short for me.

GH2001 · « **Reply #38 on:** July 17, 2012, 05:03:03 PM »

Quote from: Tiger Wench on July 17, 2012, 04:40:09 PM

Then they should be punished by their employer - the Governor/the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, and by the State Attorney General's office. Again, had this happened in the PSU Education Department, where, let's say, a 35 year tenured prof was molesting kids in the on campus day care, they probably would have covered it up then too. It was as much about protecting Penn State in general as it was about protecting the football program. The NCAA has no business getting involved in a criminal matter. NONE. And if I were the Attorney General of PA? I would tell them to back the fuck off and not interfere with my investigation.

Wes is right, and they aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. This is both a Criminal AND NCAA matter.

If I work for a bank and do something criminal relating to my work (ie - embezzling), my employer and their governing body (Federal Reserve and FDIC) and the police are all involved for different reasons. I don't want to let Penn State off the hook with the NCAA simply because I don't like the NCAA or because I don't want the Bahr elevated above Joe Pa.

If an NCAA violation has occured, they will get in trouble. If one hasn't then they won't. I think it at least needs to be looked at and everything on the table.

Townhallsavoy · « **Reply #39 on:** July 17, 2012, 05:05:51 PM »

Quote from: Godfather on July 17, 2012, 04:56:15 PM

Its a football issue, I agree, but more than that as well. Again I am back and forth, because this hurts a bunch of people who weren't involved. What about staff that work in the athletic department, they are out of work because of it. I don't know what you do.

I don't think this is like a recruiting scandal. Players, coaches, and fans shouldn't be hurt because of the actions of others. That's usually how the NCAA punishes programs.

I do, however, think Penn State needs a break. There is absolutely no coming back from this and to be honest, it's fucking disgusting to think about. Even as a non-Penn State fan, I don't want to watch their games because I know the thoughts of old men raping little boys is going to come up in conversation. It's always going to be a black cloud hanging over Beaver Stadium.

The NCAA should look at everyone involved and get rid of them. Anyone remotely associated with the case needs to go or be transferred. The players should be granted a full release to another school or remain and retain their scholarship and earn their degree.

Give the program a few years to let this settle and bring them back.