Trayvon

[AWK]

I love how the NAACP goes after Zimmerman.  Advancement of colored people, except hispanics that might have some white in them.

[AUChizad]

First bolded sentence: I've not heard anybody claim Trayvon should have expected to be stalked and shot for wearing a hoodie.

Next 2: shit you've completely decided is "100% fact" when much of it is in dispute, or only known from one side.

He didn't have a gun? He wasn't following him through a neighborhood with the gun?

This is universal fact. Zimmerman's account even includes this. What am I making up here? I said that the middle part of the actual altercation is still unknown at this time. I also said that the worst-case for Trayvon's case is probably true. He probably did physically attack Zimmerman first. Can't say for sure.

[JR4AU]

[

This is universal fact. Zimmerman's account even includes this. What am I making up here? I said that the middle part of the actual altercation is still unknown at this time. I also said that the worst-case for Trayvon's case is probably true. He probably did physically attack Zimmerman first. Can't say for sure.

Not a Gawddamned thing wrong with being armed, or letting strangers in the neighborhood know you're watching them.  Not one mother fucking thing!   Can't get over the folks that classify neighborhood watch as "stalking."

If Trayvon didn't like Zimmerman "following him" he had many choices to make.  IF Trayvon decided he didn't like being tailed, and decided a confrontation was in order, that included initiating a physical assault, then he did so at his own peril. 

[AUChizad]

Until then, if you're dealing with only facts, there is a neighbor who witnessed Zimmerman being assaulted by Trayvon.  There isn't a witness saying that Zimmerman shot Trayvon without being attacked.

Not a fact.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/15/v-fullstory/2696446/trayvon-martin-case.html

Witnesses in Trayvon Martin death heard cries before shot
 
Witnesses say they believe Trayvon Martin cried for help just before he was shot by a watch captain

    Tragic teen shooting raises old fears, questions
    Shooter of Trayvon Martin a habitual caller to cops
    911 tape shows George Zimmerman lamenting that the “a--holes always get away.”

By Frances Robles

SANFORD -- They heard the desperate wail of a child, a gunshot, and then silence.

Trayvon Martin, 17, died Feb. 26 in a dark pathway some 20 minutes after a neighborhood watch volunteer called police saying he thought a young stranger looked suspicious. It was raining, and the volunteer thought the kid in the hoodie walked too slow and peeked in windows.

Three witnesses contacted by The Miami Herald say they saw or heard the moments before and after the Miami Gardens teenager’s killing. All three said they heard the last howl for help from a despondent boy, and believe the sequence of sounds shatters the notion that Trayvon was killed in self-defense.

Police have not moved from their official statement of the shooting. But as the controversy grows, so does the number of voices disputing the official version that watch captain George Zimmerman gave to police: that the six-foot, three-inch, 140-pound teen assaulted him when Zimmerman, 28, tried to question him. In fear for his life, he pulled Kel Tek 9mm handgun from his waistband and shot.

From Facebook to Twitter and online petitions, local police and prosecutors are getting tens of thousands of demands for criminal charges as the national media shines a spotlight on a small, racially diverse central Florida town with a history of police tension. There are now more and more calls for the U.S. Department of Justice to intervene and try to answer: What really happened to Trayvon Martin?

“I heard someone crying — not boo-hoo crying, but scared or terrified or hurt maybe,” said Mary Cutcher, 31, who lives in the Retreat at Twin Lakes townhome community where the shooting occurred. “To me, it was a child.”

Zimmerman said he tailed Trayvon in a mission to find out if the teen was up to no good. Zimmerman was out to put a stop to recent burglaries. He dialed police — his 46th call since 2001 to report shady people, reckless drivers and other disturbances around his neighborhood.

He offered to follow his suspect, but the dispatcher told him: “We don’t need you to do that.”

Some minutes later, Trayvon was killed with a gun the watch volunteer was licensed to carry.

“This was not self-defense,” Cutcher said. “We heard no fighting, no wrestling, no punching. We heard a boy crying. As soon as the shot went off, it stopped, which tells me it was the child crying. If it had been Zimmerman crying, it wouldn’t have stopped. If you’re hurting, you’re hurting.”

She and her friend say they heard the sounds from a few steps away, where they were inside beside an open window. Seconds later, they dashed out to find a boy face down on the ground and a man standing over him, a foot on each side of the body on the ground, with his hands pinning the shooting victim down.

“I asked him, ‘What’s happening here? What’s going on?’ ” said Cutcher’s friend, Selma Mora Lamilla. “The third time, I was indignant, and he said, ‘just call the police.’ Then I saw him with his hands over his head in the universal sign of: ‘Oh man, I messed up.’ ”

The women, who were the first on the scene, said they saw Zimmerman pacing back and forth.

“I know what I heard. I heard a cry and a shot,” Mora said. “If there was a fight, it did not happen here where the boy was shot. I would have heard it, as this all happened right outside my open window.”

The women think there may well have been a physical altercation between the two, but it must have taken place in a different spot, where Zimmerman perhaps had a chance to compose himself and draw his weapon.

Cutcher was one of eight or nine 911 callers that night but she said investigators dismissed her, and a detective failed to follow up with her. Both women said police seemed very blasé.

“Mr. Zimmerman’s claim is that the confrontation was initiated by Trayvon,” Police Chief Bill Lee said in an interview. “I am not going into specifics of what led to the violent physical encounter witnessed by residents. All the physical evidence and testimony we have independent of what Mr. Zimmerman provides corroborates this claim to self-defense.”

To claim self-defense, someone has to show there was danger of great bodily harm or death, Lee said. “Zimmerman had injuries consistent with his story,” Lee said.

Zimmerman had a damp shirt, grass stains, a bloody nose and was bleeding from a wound in back of his head, according to police reports.

“If someone asks you, ‘Hey do you live here?’ is it OK for you to jump on them and beat the crap out of somebody?” Lee said. “It’s not.”

A neighborhood eighth-grader out walking his dog said his family also called 911.

“I saw someone lying on the ground, and I heard screaming,” said Austin, 13, whose mother asked that his last name not be published. “I don’t know that it was the person on the [ground] who was screaming, but to me it sounded like a kid who was crying. It was a yell for help, and I think it was Trayvon.”

Austin wasn’t sure if the person was in a fight or had slipped and gotten hurt. Austin’s boxer puppy got off the leash so the boy went chasing after the dog and lost sight of the scene for a moment. Then, he heard a gun go off.

He ran home and told his sister to call the police.

The boy, who is black, has been rattled ever since. He feels angry and disconcerted, and wonders whether he’s at risk too.

“That people can stereotype like that makes you scared,” he said.

Austin’s mom said he’s been acting out in school and seems mad all the time.

“My son has a terrible feeling of guilt, because he did not do anything to help. He’s angry,” said Austin’s mother, Cheryl Brown. “They are saying that Trayvon looked suspicious, because he was walking slow. So I guess I have to tell my son: make sure you always run fast.”

Lee released a statement Thursday disputing Cutcher’s account, saying it differed from what she originally told police, which she angrily denies.

Cutcher originally gave police a statement that matched Zimmerman’s account, said police spokesman Sgt. David Morgenstern.

Sanford’s Police Chief Lee is “asking the public and the media to give the system the opportunity to work, in the interest of safety of the community,” Morgenstern said.

Zimmerman, whose whereabouts are unknown, was not charged, and the case is now under review by the Brevard Seminole state attorney’s office. Local and national black leaders have rallied around the incident as the latest example of a double standard of justice in what they consider a case of racial profiling.

On Thursday, Zimmerman’s father hand-delivered a letter to the Orlando Sentinel, disputing widely repeated version of events, saying his Spanish-speaking son is not a racist.

“The media reports of the events are imaginary at best. At no time did George follow or confront Mr. Martin,” Robert Zimmerman wrote. “When the true details of the event become public, and I hope that will be soon, everyone should be outraged by the treatment of George Zimmerman in the media.”

A rally is planned for the Sanford City Council meeting March 26. Leaders are asking people to show up carrying Skittles, the candy Trayvon carried in his pocket when he died.

The witnesses say they are coming forward now because they were shocked when no arrest was made.

“They are protecting Zimmerman for some reason,” Trayvon’s mother Sybrina Fulton said in Miami. “They are protecting him and we feel that Trayvon is the victim.”

Lee said the matter needs to be taken to a grand jury as soon as possible.

“If the roles were reversed, our investigation would be exactly the same,” he said.

“Our investigation is color blind and based on the facts and circumstances, not color. I know I can say that until I am blue in the face, but as a white man in a uniform, I know it doesn’t mean anything to anybody.”

[Token]

Something else nobody has considered.  And let me first say, I haven't checked into the police chief situation where this took place, so I'm not exactly sure how he was appointed. 

Police chiefs make a good living.  Most are appointed by the mayor of the municipality, or by a civil service board.    District Attorney's make a very good living.  They are elected officials.  Which means the voters put them in their position. 

As much as I hate the political game in law enforcement, both the Police Chief and the DA could have made a lot of headway in the black community and charged Zimmerman with murder.  Easily.  I don't know very many people in law enforcement who wouldn't love a slam-dunk murder conviction.  It's great publicity for the agency.  The Chief gets face time.  The DA gets face time.  The bad guy goes to prison. 

Why would the Chief AND the DA risk their own jobs by not charging Zimmerman?  Are they both racist and believe the black kid should have been gunned down for being a thug?  They both were willing to put their careers on the line to NOT charge someone with murder because of skin color?  If not for being racist, what other reasons would they have for not charging Zimmerman?  I know of only one.  The facts of the case (the facts that we don't entirely have) led them to believe they would be charging an innocent man with murder.  That's the only reason I could fathom not charging someone with murder, in their position. 

It just doesn't make sense. 

[Token]

Not a fact.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/15/v-fullstory/2696446/trayvon-martin-case.html

Dude.  You realize things such as murder warrants can't be obtained on "I heard" "I think".  That's the part that maybe some of you aren't grasping.  I'll try to find it, but a release from the agency says they have a statement from an eye witness.  Which means they saw.  They didn't hear, they saw. 

“I heard someone crying — not boo-hoo crying, but scared or terrified or hurt maybe,” said Mary Cutcher, 31, who lives in the Retreat at Twin Lakes townhome community where the shooting occurred. “To me, it was a child.”

Unless she had previously heard Zimmerman or Trayvon crying previously, she can't say which one it was.  And her opinion won't stand in court. 

“We heard no fighting, no wrestling, no punching. We heard a boy crying. As soon as the shot went off, it stopped, which tells me it was the child crying. If it had been Zimmerman crying, it wouldn’t have stopped. If you’re hurting, you’re hurting.”

Opinion, they didn't see anything.

“I know what I heard. I heard a cry and a shot,” Mora said. “If there was a fight, it did not happen here where the boy was shot. I would have heard it, as this all happened right outside my open window.”

Opinion.  You know what type of opinion stand in court?  Expert.  I'm guessing Mora isn't one.

“I don’t know that it was the person on the [ground] who was screaming, but to me it sounded like a kid who was crying. It was a yell for help, and I think it was Trayvon.”

Opinion.

Really, I can't believe you posted that article as a way to combat an argument.  None of that would stand in court.  They would get their asses handed to them by the DA on the stand, almost to the point that the defense would likely not use them to keep themselves from looking like dumbasses. 

[AUChizad]

Dude.  You realize things such as murder warrants can't be obtained on "I heard" "I think".  That's the part that maybe some of you aren't grasping.  I'll try to find it, but a release from the agency says they have a statement from an eye witness.  Which means they saw.  They didn't hear, they saw. 

Unless she had previously heard Zimmerman or Trayvon crying previously, she can't say which one it was.  And her opinion won't stand in court. 

Opinion, they didn't see anything.

Opinion.  You know what type of opinion stand in court?  Expert.  I'm guessing Mora isn't one.

Opinion.

Really, I can't believe you posted that article as a way to combat an argument.  None of that would stand in court.  They would get their asses handed to them by the DA on the stand, almost to the point that the defense would likely not use them to keep themselves from looking like dumbasses.

I posted it in response to "There's only a witness that said Zimmerman was being attacked" "There are no witnesses that say it was the other way around."

That's just not a true statement. There are more witnesses claiming Trayvon was the one being attacked.

I haven't seen anyone saying they saw Martin beating the shit out of Zimmerman.

[Vandy Vol]

Because the armed gunman who's been chasing you finally turns the other way, this erases the threat he posed to you 30 seconds ago? It's all still one incident, in my opinion.

In the eyes of the law, your life is no longer in imminent danger if the assailant is walking away.  You can't chase a person down and attack them just because they have a gun, even if they previously brandished the gun in your face and expressly threatened to shoot you.

Now, if the guy is just dancing around in circles like a crazed lunatic while holding a gun, and is not acting as if he is leaving the area, then yeah, your life might still be in danger.  But if a person were to stop chasing you, turn, and walk away from you, then no, their previous threats do not "carry forward" to a point in time at which they are no longer threatening you.  Once the threat stops, there is no more chance for self defense.

[Token]

I posted it in response to "There's only a witness that said Zimmerman was being attacked" "There are no witnesses that say it was the other way around."

That's just not a true statement. There are more witnesses claiming Trayvon was the one being attacked.

I haven't seen anyone saying they saw Martin beating the shit out of Zimmerman.

http://www.eurweb.com/2012/03/trayvon-martin-attacked-george-zimmerman-says-witnes/

A new witness to the shooting has come forward and claims the 17-year-old did in fact attack George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch volunteer who shot and killed Martin.

(Are you a fan of EURweb? Like us on Facebook or Follow us on Twitter.)

Zimmerman, who was not arrested or charged by authorities, claims he shot the teenager in self-defense. Martin was unarmed.

According to Tampa Bay Fox affiliate WTVT-TV, what the witness says he saw could bolster Zimmerman’s claim that he shot Martin in self-defense:

“The guy on the bottom who had a red sweater on was yelling to me: ‘help, help…and I told him to stop and I was calling 911,” he said.

Trayvon Martin was in a hoodie; Zimmerman was in red.

The witness only wanted to be identified as “John,” and didn’t not want to be shown on camera.

His statements to police were instrumental, because police backed up Zimmerman’s claims, saying those screams on the 911 call are those of Zimmerman.

“When I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point,” John said.

I'm not trying to be a smartass, but you do know there is a substantial difference between an eyewitness and someone who "heard". 

The police agency has a statement from an eyewitness, likely this guy, who SAW who the attacker was.  Didn't hear, didn't believe, SAW. 

Witness that saw the incident can't be disputed unless he is purposely lying.  Witness who hears only has opinion.  Opinions can be disputed. 

[GarMan]

"People like me"? Way to generalize and create a position for me...again.

If you recall, I'm the one that hasn't mentioned race at all, except to say to stop factoring race into the equation.

You've been overly uptight about perceived racism as far back as I can remember, long before this shit ever happened. 

You're the one typing in ebonics and saying shit like he deserved it just for being in this neighborhood (walking home from the store).

You're the one saying racist shit like:

Oh...  So, that's ebonics?  Are you fucking kidding me???  Traveling back-and-forth between Atlanta and Detroit, I can honestly say that I've encountered more white people who talk like that than any other race.  Just watch MTV one afternoon...  You're ridiculous.

You're that other side of the argument that disgusts me equally to the Jesse Jackson half. You're justifying their otherwise pointless rants. You're proving them right. 

It's called sarcasm.  I'm mocking their (and your) ignorance.  Proving them fools... 

Stop right there. How did he know he didn't belong in his neighborhood? The kid was walking home from the store. I don't know if that was his neighborhood or not, but it obviously was within the walking distance between the store and his house.

How did he know???  Zimmerman was part of the Neighborhood Watch program.  It's that fucking simple! 

And this is a problem. He got out of the car to follow this kid. He was the one looking for trouble and found it. Not Trayvon. He was walking home from the store, minding his own business.

And, if you read on, you'll find that I do agree with you to an extent.  There's no law that prevents Zimmerman from observing Trayvon, but I do think his pursuit will present a problem for him if he is charged.  Again, don't forget that Zimmerman was part of the Neighborhood Watch program.  It's his responsibility to be alert and keep an eye out for potential issues. 

Like I said, these are all alleged events, but even if they're all true. He still was chasing this kid around the neighborhood with a gun. I'd probably blindside the motherfucker too if I got the chance, in that situation. The "at least one witness account" is matched by several more that said it was Martin's voice they heard calling for help.

Here's the difference.  That one witness was right there, telling Trayvon to stop his attack.  It's in the recording along with Zimmerman's cries and pleas for help.  Zimmerman may have followed Trayvon to observe him, but his pursuit doesn't necessarily mean that he chased this kid around with a gun.  And, if Trayvon was concerned by Zimmerman, he should have called the police.  We know he had a cell phone. 

Totally agree with your first bullet point. Which is why it's a shoddy defense for someone who chased an unarmed kid through a neighborhood with a firearm. The second and third bullet points, though, seems silly to me. Because the armed gunman who's been chasing you finally turns the other way, this erases the threat he posed to you 30 seconds ago? It's all still one incident, in my opinion. And Zimmerman initiated it.

And, that's where you'd likely be wrong.  When Zimmerman headed back to his vehicle, he posed no immediate threat to Trayvon anymore.  It's the way the law was written.  I don't have anything to do with it. 

There are some cases where circumstantial evidence being dismissed irritates me. This isn't one of them. This kid's history at school or any other piddly transgression people want to drag out now, is a thousand yards away from relevance as to why Zimmerman decided to follow him through a neighborhood with a gun. Zimmerman didn't know any of that shit.

You're centering this around Zimmerman.  Let's center this around Trayvon for a moment without excusing his inappropriate behavior.  Why was he walking the streets after hours?  Why was he in that neighborhood?  If he was concerned about Zimmerman, why didn't he just call the police on his cell phone?  Why did he think it was appropriate to attack an adult?  I know that you don't see it, but Trayvon's behavior is more of the issue from my perspective.  And, what if Zimmerman was a security guard, off-duty police officer or undercover police officer?  The same thing would have likely occurred because Trayvon's behavior was inappropriate. 

Unless there's a citywide curfew, this is not a defense either, grandpa. My Senior year of high school, I was out on the streets until the curfew my parents gave me, which was way way way past 10pm. No one ever pulled a gun on me. 

I'm willing to bet the difference is that you never found yourself in a high-crime neighborhood where you didn't belong. 

[AUChizad]

Why was he walking the streets after hours?

Because he wanted some skittles.

Why was he in that neighborhood?

Because it was on the way back to his house from the store where said Skittles were purchased.

If he was concerned about Zimmerman, why didn't he just call the police on his cell phone?

Easy for you to say after the fact. I'm pretty sure if you're being followed by a guy with a gun, primitive instincts are gonna take over. What's he going to do, call the cops right in front of the gunman? "Hey man, can you wait right there a second? I'm gonna call the cops on you. Just hang tight with that gun, and please refuse from using it. Thanks, bro."

Why did he think it was appropriate to attack an adult?

Because the adult had a gun and was stalking him on his way home?

[GarMan]

Easy for you to say after the fact. I'm pretty sure if you're being followed by a guy with a gun, primitive instincts are gonna take over. What's he going to do, call the cops right in front of the gunman? "Hey man, can you wait right there a second? I'm gonna call the cops on you. Just hang tight with that gun, and please refuse from using it. Thanks, bro."

The assumption that you and others are making is that Trayvon knew that Zimmerman had a gun.  I'm sorry...  If you were unarmed, would you ever attack somebody who had a firearm?  I mean, this just marches lockstep with more inappropriate behavior.  How stupid do you have to be?  And, I know that some people are incapable of chewing gum and walking at the same time, but this kid was able to talk to his girlfriend, eat Skittles, drink tea and walk home all at about the same time.  Would calling the police have been that much more difficult for him? 

Because the adult had a gun and was stalking him on his way home?

Again, would a reasonable person who is unarmed attack somebody who has a firearm?  No fucking way...  But, you're right.  Primitive instincts do take over.  They tell you to run like hell...  in the opposite direction.   

[JR4AU]

Because he wanted some skittles.Because it was on the way back to his house from the store where said Skittles were purchased.Easy for you to say after the fact. I'm pretty sure if you're being followed by a guy with a gun, primitive instincts are gonna take over. What's he going to do, call the cops right in front of the gunman? "Hey man, can you wait right there a second? I'm gonna call the cops on you. Just hang tight with that gun, and please refuse from using it. Thanks, bro."Because the adult had a gun and was stalking him on his way home?

You are dumb

[Townhallsavoy]

Because he wanted some skittles.Because it was on the way back to his house from the store where said Skittles were purchased.Easy for you to say after the fact. I'm pretty sure if you're being followed by a guy with a gun, primitive instincts are gonna take over. What's he going to do, call the cops right in front of the gunman? "Hey man, can you wait right there a second? I'm gonna call the cops on you. Just hang tight with that gun, and please refuse from using it. Thanks, bro."Because the adult had a gun and was stalking him on his way home?

I think the police report states that Zimmerman had the gun in the holster when Trayvon attacked him. 

[AUChizad]

You are dumb

You are a fucktard.

I think the police report states that Zimmerman had the gun in the holster when Trayvon attacked him. 

So you guys all think that a reasonable person would think this guy was following him through the neighborhood, looking frazzled and alarmed, to what? High five him?

[Vandy Vol]

[GarMan]

So you guys all think that a reasonable person would think this guy was following him through the neighborhood, looking frazzled and alarmed, to what? High five him? 

I think it's pretty simple.  I wouldn't expect a reasonable person to attack someone who had been chasing or following him, looking frazzled and alarmed with a firearm.  If you have a legitimate concern about a given situation, you get the fuck out of there and call the police. 

And, here we go again with this quest/fetish/whatever to deflect responsibility.  Like I said earlier, if Zimmerman was an armed security guard or an off-duty police officer, the same thing would have likely occurred because Trayvon was behaving inappropriately.  He wasn't just in the wrong place at the wrong time.  He exacerbated the situation by attacking a Neighborhood Watch volunteer. 

[AWK]

You are dumb

How is he dumb for stating facts?  He went to a store to get a sweet tea and skittles, and was heading home.  All of these facts have been listed and corroborated by multiple sources, including his girlfriend (who he was on the phone with). 

[GarMan]

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/roseanne-barr-zimmerman-tweets-893416

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-trayvon-martin-lee-settlement-20120329,0,7063902.story

I love all of these know-it-all fucktards pulling these stunts.  Opening themselves up (as well as others) for legal action...  And, potentially committing crimes themselves. 

[JR4AU]

How is he dumb for stating facts?  He went to a store to get a sweet tea and skittles, and was heading home.  All of these facts have been listed and corroborated by multiple sources, including his girlfriend (who he was on the phone with).

His argument is emotional, and based around base facts, from which he's extrapolates to his own "facts" to support such things as characterizing Zimmerman as "stalking him with a gun".  It's why when you question him about "facts" he defaults to "Zimmerman shot an unarmed 17 year old, is that disputed?"  No, it's not, and it's not near enough facts for intelligent people to make a decision one way or the other. We don't know if Zimmerman did anything other than follow him at a distance.  We don't know when he drew his gun.  Rational people who wait on facts don't know much of what would be needed to make a decision, but chizads dumb fuck ass made a decision long ago, and nothing will dissuade him and he'll frame his arguments around his "facts" to persuade anybody that will listen.   Please tell me what relevance there is to Trayvon's purpose in going to the store, or in what he purchased as to whether or not he may or may not have attacked Zimmerman?