Trayvon

[JR4AU]

Use of Force/Deadly Force in defense of self, or others is an "affirmative defense".  Meaning you, as the suspect/defendant, admit the use of force, and claim legal justification for doing so.  The state must them prove you either were not reasonable in your belief, or that you were not acting in self defense, or defense of others as is allowed by law. 

[AWK]

Yeah...  I'm thuch a brute.  How dare I attempt to protect private property.  What a thilly Neanderthal/Cro-Magnon conthept!!! 

Wait...  What's that enlightened, politically correct opinion regarding private property?  It's only stuff.  Well, something like that, anyway...

Pretty much everything said.  Regardless, I don't need a gun to protect my shit.  Not that I'm against guns or anything, because I'm not. 

[CCTAU]

Pretty much everything said.  Regardless, I don't need a gun to protect my shit.  Not that I'm against guns or anything, because I'm not.

Many people say that until their shit gets taken. It's a very disturbing and personal violation.

And jsut what will you protect your shit with, a cell phone?

[JR4AU]

Many people say that until their shit gets taken. It's a very disturbing and personal violation.

And jsut what will you protect your shit with, a cell phone?

In this state, the way the law is written, I'm not defending my shit with deadly force.  Could you get away with it?  Maybe, but you're asking for serious trouble, and at the very least some sleepless nights worrying about being prosecuted, as well as legal fees.

But, then that's not at issue with Zimmerman and Trayvon.   

[Vandy Vol]

Use of Force/Deadly Force in defense of self, or others is an "affirmative defense".  Meaning you, as the suspect/defendant, admit the use of force, and claim legal justification for doing so.  The state must them prove you either were not reasonable in your belief, or that you were not acting in self defense, or defense of others as is allowed by law.

Not in all jurisdictions, but in Florida, Texas, Alabama, and many others, yes, it is the prosecution's burden.  In Alabama (and in most jurisdictions where the burden of proof is on the prosecution), the defendant is required to prove his self defense case to some degree (sometimes by preponderance of the evidence), but he is not required to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.   Case law has referred to this as the "burden of proving self-defense" or the "burden of persuasion," but they distinguish these terms from the general "burden of proof" concept, which is considered to be proving your case beyond a reasonable doubt.  Essentially, the defendant's evidence must only create a reasonable doubt, but doesn't have to overcome reasonable doubt.

In other jurisdictions (Georgia, for instance), it is the defendant's burden to prove self defense.  This is based upon the theory that an affirmative defense asserts additional facts that were not claimed by the prosecution, and thus the prosecution should not have the burden of disproving something that is not an element of the crime and is not part of the prosecution's claim.  I don't think many jurisdictions follow this line of thought, but they do exist.

[GarMan]

Pretty much everything said.  Regardless, I don't need a gun to protect my shit.  Not that I'm against guns or anything, because I'm not. 

I don't think he said anything where I could disagree.  You never need a gun until you actually need one, and by the time you realize it, it's usually too late.  You just become a statistic then.

[GarMan]

In this state, the way the law is written, I'm not defending my shit with deadly force.  Could you get away with it?  Maybe, but you're asking for serious trouble, and at the very least some sleepless nights worrying about being prosecuted, as well as legal fees.

But, then that's not at issue with Zimmerman and Trayvon.   

I don't disagree.  I wouldn't say that you're defending your property with a gun.  You're defending your property by taking action, announcing your presence, calling the police, asking the violators to leave or requesting that they wait for the police.  More recently, I've even tried getting pictures of the violators with my cell phone camera.  If you are threatened or attacked, you would only use the gun to protect yourself.  A bit like Zimmerman... 

[Saniflush]

http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2012/03/bankrupt-race-card.html

[JR4AU]

I don't disagree.  I wouldn't say that you're defending your property with a gun.  You're defending your property by taking action, announcing your presence, calling the police, asking the violators to leave or requesting that they wait for the police.  More recently, I've even tried getting pictures of the violators with my cell phone camera.  If you are threatened or attacked, you would only use the gun to protect yourself.  A bit like Zimmerman...

As long as you tell it right, you're golden, assuming the forensics or witnesses don't contradict you. 

[AUChizad]

This whole case really bothers me, about society in general.

This has become a divisive hot-button issue, and I just can't understand it.

Fuck Al Sharpton and his ilk for turning this into a race-baiting frenzy. And fuck the people on the opposite side who now will defend Zimmerman to their dying breath, evidence be damned, because it's become about team white people versus team black people.

The thing that ought to fuck the minds of both Lawrence O'Donnell AND Sean Hannity is that Zimmerman is a Latino who is a registered democrat.

That dude in the picture on the first page of this thread? Get your racism right, dipshit. It should read "Pussy Assed Spic".

And the Black Panther party? Yeah, we'll bring this vigilante killer to justice...by offering a bounty to a mob of vigilante killers.

AND fuck the notion that, "Well, Trayvon was walking through a neighborhood with a hoodie! He should have expected to have been stalked and shot to death!"


Just a couple of thugs looking for trouble who have it coming.

Or "He had gold fronts and participated in Senior Skip Day." Who gives a fuck? I guarantee you, if the whole world was digging through your background, they could find some shit that would disqualify you from Sainthood as well. Sad that we've resorted to that for a kid that was shot to death.

With all of the above said, absolutely none of that shit should matter. Our polarized society has turned this into a circus. What is known about the case as 100% fact is that George Zimmerman saw Trayvon Martin, who was unarmed, walking home from the store and called the cops. They told him to stop following him. He did anyway. With a gun. There was the actual altercation, which we don't know much about, but we know how it ended. Zimmerman shot and killed Martin. Seems pretty open and shut to me. Man stalks unarmed kid through a neighborhood and shoots him to death. It's not an "innocent until proven guilty" thing. We know for sure, he shot and killed the kid. The only question the jury is still technically out on, is if he did it in self-defense or not. And how the "Stand your ground" law should be applied to this case.

I'm assuming the worst for that middle sketchy part. Martin probably did ask him what the fuck his problem was for following him around. And he probably did attack him with physical violence first. Still, I don't see how this can be considered self defense, when he followed him through a neighborhood with a gun. It's not like Martin was breaking into his car or something. If anything, Martin was acting in self defense, if the alleged account of him attacking Zimmerman first are even true.

Surveilance video shows Zimmerman immediately after the altercation. No blood. Nothing that supports the repeated punches to the face resulting in a broken nose, bashing his head repeatedly into the concrete within an inch of his life, story we heard from Zimmerman.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505266_162-57406327/martin-family-lawyer-video-icing-on-the-cake/

Zimmerman shot and killed a kid for no goddamn reason. He should be locked up.

Zimmerman is also not the white devil, he's a minority himself. And a Democrat, no less. Quit turning this into another goddamn race-baiting and politically divisive issue.

[GH2001]

This whole case really bothers me, about society in general.

This has become a divisive hot-button issue, and I just can't understand it.

Fuck Al Sharpton and his ilk for turning this into a race-baiting frenzy. And fuck the people on the opposite side who now will defend Zimmerman to their dying breath, evidence be damned, because it's become about team white people versus team black people.

The thing that ought to fuck the minds of both Lawrence O'Donnell AND Sean Hannity is that Zimmerman is a Latino who is a registered democrat.

That dude in the picture on the first page of this thread? Get your racism right, dipshit. It should read "Pussy Assed Spic".

And the Black Panther party? Yeah, we'll bring this vigilante killer to justice...by offering a bounty to a mob of vigilante killers.

AND fuck the notion that, "Well, Trayvon was walking through a neighborhood with a hoodie! He should have expected to have been stalked and shot to death!"


Just a couple of thugs looking for trouble who have it coming.

Or "He had gold fronts and participated in Senior Skip Day." Who gives a fuck? I guarantee you, if the whole world was digging through your background, they could find some shit that would disqualify you from Sainthood as well. Sad that we've resorted to that for a kid that was shot to death.

With all of the above said, absolutely none of that shit should matter. Our polarized society has turned this into a circus. What is known about the case as 100% fact is that George Zimmerman saw Trayvon Martin, who was unarmed, walking home from the store and called the cops. They told him to stop following him. He did anyway. With a gun. There was the actual altercation, which we don't know much about, but we know how it ended. Zimmerman shot and killed Martin. Seems pretty open and shut to me. Man stalks unarmed kid through a neighborhood and shoots him to death. It's not an "innocent until proven guilty" thing. We know for sure, he shot and killed the kid. The only question the jury is still technically out on, is if he did it in self-defense or not. And how the "Stand your ground" law should be applied to this case.

I'm assuming the worst for that middle sketchy part. Martin probably did ask him what the fuck his problem was for following him around. And he probably did attack him with physical violence first. Still, I don't see how this can be considered self defense, when he followed him through a neighborhood with a gun. It's not like Martin was breaking into his car or something. If anything, Martin was acting in self defense, if the alleged account of him attacking Zimmerman first are even true.

Surveilance video shows Zimmerman immediately after the altercation. No blood. Nothing that supports the repeated punches to the face resulting in a broken nose, bashing his head repeatedly into the concrete within an inch of his life, story we heard from Zimmerman.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505266_162-57406327/martin-family-lawyer-video-icing-on-the-cake/

Zimmerman shot and killed a kid for no goddamn reason. He should be locked up.

Zimmerman is also not the white devil, he's a minority himself. And a Democrat, no less. Quit turning this into another goddamn race-baiting and politically divisive issue.

Actually agree with a ton of what you just said Chad. You make some very good points.

I was going to say something yesterday about the guy being Latino but figured it was irrelevant. Except for the fact that he has been labeled "white" and "white hispanic" for convenience (so that Sharpton and his goons can pile on). White hispanic? Unless he is half and half, what the fuck is that?

[GarMan]

This whole case really bothers me, about society in general.

This has become a divisive hot-button issue, and I just can't understand it.

Fuck...

You have got to be FUCKING KIDDING ME!!!  YOU and people like YOU are part of the damn problem screaming RACISM at every fucking twist and turn.  You've got absolutely NO ROOM to talk!  The way you mouth-off around here?  You bring adding fuel to the fire to a whole new motherfucking level.  Who the FUCK do you think you're fooling?  You can't understand it...  But, you're always one of the first ones to take the adversarial devil's advocate role and castigate others for their differing opinions and backwards ways. 

Zimmerman was part of the Neighborhood Watch program.
Zimmerman noticed someone who didn't belong in his neighborhood.
Zimmerman called the police to report his concerns.
Zimmerman told the dispatcher that he's going to follow him.
The police dispatcher suggested that he shouldn't do that.  You can hear Zimmerman getting out of his vehicle on the recording. 
Zimmerman claims to have lost sight of Trayvon a few moments later.
Zimmerman claims to be heading back to his vehicle when Trayvon approaches him.
Zimmerman claims that Trayvon attacked him.
At least one witness calls the police to report that Trayvon is beating on Zimmerman.  You can hear Zimmerman's cries and pleas in the background of that recording.
Zimmerman claims that during the attack, Trayvon went for his firearm.
Zimmerman shoots Trayvon, killing him, ending the attack.  Apparently, this occurred just a few feet from Zimmerman's vehicle. 

If Zimmerman's account is factually correct and corroborated by the witness, Zimmerman is innocent.  The majority of the police on the scene, who also happen to be African-American, believed Zimmerman and did not arrest him. 

Some other points to consider...
- When Zimmerman chose to pursue Trayvon, Zimmerman could no longer claim the "stand your ground" defense.  If Trayvon turned on him during the pursuit, Trayvon would be standing his ground, and Zimmerman would be in the wrong. 
- If Zimmerman was heading back to his truck when Trayvon approached him, Zimmerman could use the stand your ground defense, and Trayvon would be in the wrong.  It is my understanding that this was the belief by the police at the scene.
- From what I understand, the concept of standing your ground only permits you to defend yourself from eminent attack.  It does not permit you to be the aggressor or continue your attack after the threat has been subdued.  The witness saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman beating him, while Zimmerman cried and screamed for help.  You can believe whatever you want from there... 

As for the rest of your rant, much of what you said is true, and I agree that his actions and character leading up to the event don't really matter from a legal perspective.  As you know, a lot of the ranting about this case has portrayed Trayvon as some innocent kid who was a moral cornerstone of his community.  The fact is, he was at that age where he really could have used some guidance and direction.  He had a string of behavioral issues leading up to this point.  If that doesn't matter to you, so be it...  Many of us think otherwise. 

Just another thought...  How many 17 year old kids walk the streets after 10pm?  I realize that I'm being old-fashioned again, but does that seem like appropriate behavior to you?  I'm relatively certain that Zimmerman overreacted here, but doesn't he have a right to be concerned, especially with him being a Neighborhood Watch volunteer? 

[JR4AU]

This whole case really bothers me, about society in general.

This has become a divisive hot-button issue, and I just can't understand it.

Fuck Al Sharpton and his ilk for turning this into a race-baiting frenzy. And fuck the people on the opposite side who now will defend Zimmerman to their dying breath, evidence be damned, because it's become about team white people versus team black people.

The thing that ought to fuck the minds of both Lawrence O'Donnell AND Sean Hannity is that Zimmerman is a Latino who is a registered democrat.

That dude in the picture on the first page of this thread? Get your racism right, dipshit. It should read "Pussy Assed Spic".

And the Black Panther party? Yeah, we'll bring this vigilante killer to justice...by offering a bounty to a mob of vigilante killers.

AND fuck the notion that, "Well, Trayvon was walking through a neighborhood with a hoodie! He should have expected to have been stalked and shot to death!"


Just a couple of thugs looking for trouble who have it coming.

Or "He had gold fronts and participated in Senior Skip Day." Who gives a fuck? I guarantee you, if the whole world was digging through your background, they could find some shit that would disqualify you from Sainthood as well. Sad that we've resorted to that for a kid that was shot to death.

With all of the above said, absolutely none of that shit should matter. Our polarized society has turned this into a circus. What is known about the case as 100% fact is that George Zimmerman saw Trayvon Martin, who was unarmed, walking home from the store and called the cops. They told him to stop following him. He did anyway. With a gun. There was the actual altercation, which we don't know much about, but we know how it ended. Zimmerman shot and killed Martin. Seems pretty open and shut to me. Man stalks unarmed kid through a neighborhood and shoots him to death. It's not an "innocent until proven guilty" thing. We know for sure, he shot and killed the kid. The only question the jury is still technically out on, is if he did it in self-defense or not. And how the "Stand your ground" law should be applied to this case.

I'm assuming the worst for that middle sketchy part. Martin probably did ask him what the fuck his problem was for following him around. And he probably did attack him with physical violence first. Still, I don't see how this can be considered self defense, when he followed him through a neighborhood with a gun. It's not like Martin was breaking into his car or something. If anything, Martin was acting in self defense, if the alleged account of him attacking Zimmerman first are even true.

Surveilance video shows Zimmerman immediately after the altercation. No blood. Nothing that supports the repeated punches to the face resulting in a broken nose, bashing his head repeatedly into the concrete within an inch of his life, story we heard from Zimmerman.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505266_162-57406327/martin-family-lawyer-video-icing-on-the-cake/

Zimmerman shot and killed a kid for no goddamn reason. He should be locked up.

Zimmerman is also not the white devil, he's a minority himself. And a Democrat, no less. Quit turning this into another goddamn race-baiting and politically divisive issue.

Can't disagree with your take on race baiting. 

First bolded sentence: I've not heard anybody claim Trayvon should have expected to be stalked and shot for wearing a hoodie.

Next 2: shit you've completely decided is "100% fact" when much of it is in dispute, or only known from one side. 

[GH2001]

Can't disagree with your take on race baiting. 

First bolded sentence: I've not heard anybody claim Trayvon should have expected to be stalked and shot for wearing a hoodie.

Next 2: shit you've completely decided is "100% fact" when much of it is in dispute, or only known from one side.

Agree 100% with last statement. That's one of the 2 points Chad made that I disagree with. The other being your middle statement.

[Townhallsavoy]

Go Gata, Corch! strikes again:




(Start at 2 minutes but listen to all of it for full effect)

[AUChizad]

You have got to be FUCKING KIDDING ME!!!  YOU and people like YOU are part of the damn problem screaming RACISM at every fucking twist and turn.  You've got absolutely NO ROOM to talk!  The way you mouth-off around here?  You bring adding fuel to the fire to a whole new motherfucking level.  Who the FUCK do you think you're fooling?  You can't understand it...  But, you're always one of the first ones to take the adversarial devil's advocate role and castigate others for their differing opinions and backwards ways. 

"People like me"? Way to generalize and create a position for me...again.

If you recall, I'm the one that hasn't mentioned race at all, except to say to stop factoring race into the equation.

You're the one typing in ebonics and saying shit like he deserved it just for being in this neighborhood (walking home from the store).

You're the one saying racist shit like:

Y'all bein' racist.  Trayvon was a good kid.  He neva do nuthin' wrong...

You're that other side of the argument that disgusts me equally to the Jesse Jackson half. You're justifying their otherwise pointless rants. You're proving them right.

Zimmerman was part of the Neighborhood Watch program.
Zimmerman noticed someone who didn't belong in his neighborhood.

Stop right there. How did he know he didn't belong in his neighborhood? The kid was walking home from the store. I don't know if that was his neighborhood or not, but it obviously was within the walking distance between the store and his house.

Zimmerman called the police to report his concerns.
Zimmerman told the dispatcher that he's going to follow him.
The police dispatcher suggested that he shouldn't do that.  You can hear Zimmerman getting out of his vehicle on the recording. 

And this is a problem. He got out of the car to follow this kid. He was the one looking for trouble and found it. Not Trayvon. He was walking home from the store, minding his own business.

Zimmerman claims to have lost sight of Trayvon a few moments later.
Zimmerman claims to be heading back to his vehicle when Trayvon approaches him.
Zimmerman claims that Trayvon attacked him.
At least one witness calls the police to report that Trayvon is beating on Zimmerman.  You can hear Zimmerman's cries and pleas in the background of that recording.
Zimmerman claims that during the attack, Trayvon went for his firearm.

Like I said, these are all alleged events, but even if they're all true. He still was chasing this kid around the neighborhood with a gun. I'd probably blindside the motherfucker too if I got the chance, in that situation. The "at least one witness account" is matched by several more that said it was Martin's voice they heard calling for help.

Some other points to consider...
- When Zimmerman chose to pursue Trayvon, Zimmerman could no longer claim the "stand your ground" defense.  If Trayvon turned on him during the pursuit, Trayvon would be standing his ground, and Zimmerman would be in the wrong. 
- If Zimmerman was heading back to his truck when Trayvon approached him, Zimmerman could use the stand your ground defense, and Trayvon would be in the wrong.  It is my understanding that this was the belief by the police at the scene.
- From what I understand, the concept of standing your ground only permits you to defend yourself from eminent attack.  It does not permit you to be the aggressor or continue your attack after the threat has been subdued.  The witness saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman beating him, while Zimmerman cried and screamed for help.  You can believe whatever you want from there... 

Totally agree with your first bullet point. Which is why it's a shoddy defense for someone who chased an unarmed kid through a neighborhood with a firearm. The second and third bullet points, though, seems silly to me. Because the armed gunman who's been chasing you finally turns the other way, this erases the threat he posed to you 30 seconds ago? It's all still one incident, in my opinion. And Zimmerman initiated it.

As for the rest of your rant, much of what you said is true, and I agree that his actions and character leading up to the event don't really matter from a legal perspective.  As you know, a lot of the ranting about this case has portrayed Trayvon as some innocent kid who was a moral cornerstone of his community.  The fact is, he was at that age where he really could have used some guidance and direction.  He had a string of behavioral issues leading up to this point.  If that doesn't matter to you, so be it...  Many of us think otherwise. 

There are some cases where circumstantial evidence being dismissed irritates me. This isn't one of them. This kid's history at school or any other piddly transgression people want to drag out now, is a thousand yards away from relevance as to why Zimmerman decided to follow him through a neighborhood with a gun. Zimmerman didn't know any of that shit.

Just another thought...  How many 17 year old kids walk the streets after 10pm?  I realize that I'm being old-fashioned again, but does that seem like appropriate behavior to you?  I'm relatively certain that Zimmerman overreacted here, but doesn't he have a right to be concerned, especially with him being a Neighborhood Watch volunteer?

Unless there's a citywide curfew, this is not a defense either, grandpa. My Senior year of high school, I was out on the streets until the curfew my parents gave me, which was way way way past 10pm. No one ever pulled a gun on me.

[Token]

I agree with a lot of what has been said already.  It shouldn't be a race issue, but it is, because the same people always steer it in that direction. 

As for the video, I don't think it helps Trayvon's case.  A mug shot would be much better.  You can't tell if there is swelling on Zimmerman's face in the video.  You can tell there isn't blood on Zimmerman in the video, BUT, if the officers who responded did their job (and I'm assuming they did), Zimmerman would have been treated on scene by medics and most of the visible blood would have been cleaned while checking for cuts.   Now, find a mug shot of Zimmerman where there doesn't appear to be a scratch on his face or head, then I'll buy the idea that Zimmerman wasn't assaulted. 

Until then, if you're dealing with only facts, there is a neighbor who witnessed Zimmerman being assaulted by Trayvon.  There isn't a witness saying that Zimmerman shot Trayvon without being attacked.  I know my magistrate wouldn't issue a murder warrant under those circumstances.  It would most definitely be presented to the Grand Jury, but how do we know the agency wasn't going to do so?  Grand Jury isn't every week, or every month. 

Of the facts that have been released, it just doesn't look like Zimmerman should be arrested. 

And again, the "character" argument was fine when it was being told how honest and upright of a citizen Trayvon had been.  But bring up a character flaw, and it's a bunch of racial bullshit?  I don't get that.

[JR4AU]

Agree 100% with last statement. That's one of the 2 points Chad made that I disagree with. The other being your middle statement.

What distresses me just as much about our society is the number here that think only kooks, and stalker/murderers take responsibility for the safety and security of themselves, their family, and community and arm themselves to accomplish this. 

[GH2001]

I agree with a lot of what has been said already.  It shouldn't be a race issue, but it is, because the same people always steer it in that direction. 

As for the video, I don't think it helps Trayvon's case.  A mug shot would be much better.  You can't tell if there is swelling on Zimmerman's face in the video.  The only thing you can't see is blood that would obviously be there if he was physically assaulted to the point that he feared for his life.  BUT, if the officers who responded did their job (and I'm assuming they did), Zimmerman would have been treated on scene by medics and most of the visible blood would have been cleaned while checking for cuts.   Now, find a mug shot of Zimmerman where there doesn't appear to be a scratch on his face or head, then I'll buy the idea that Zimmerman wasn't assaulted. 

Until then, if you're dealing with only facts, there is a neighbor who witnessed Zimmerman being assaulted by Trayvon.  There isn't a witness saying that Zimmerman shot Trayvon without being attacked.  I know my magistrate wouldn't issue a murder warrant under those circumstances.  It would most definitely be presented to the Grand Jury, but how do we know the agency wasn't going to do so?  Grand Jury isn't every week, or every month. 

Of the facts that have been released, it just doesn't look like Zimmerman should be arrested. 

And again, the "character" argument was fine when it was being told how honest and upright of a citizen Trayvon had been.  But bring up a character flaw, and it's a bunch of racial bullshit?  I don't get that.

Spot on.

[JR4AU]

I agree with a lot of what has been said already.  It shouldn't be a race issue, but it is, because the same people always steer it in that direction. 

As for the video, I don't think it helps Trayvon's case.  A mug shot would be much better.  You can't tell if there is swelling on Zimmerman's face in the video.  You can tell there isn't blood on Zimmerman in the video, BUT, if the officers who responded did their job (and I'm assuming they did), Zimmerman would have been treated on scene by medics and most of the visible blood would have been cleaned while checking for cuts.   Now, find a mug shot of Zimmerman where there doesn't appear to be a scratch on his face or head, then I'll buy the idea that Zimmerman wasn't assaulted. 

Until then, if you're dealing with only facts, there is a neighbor who witnessed Zimmerman being assaulted by Trayvon.  There isn't a witness saying that Zimmerman shot Trayvon without being attacked.  I know my magistrate wouldn't issue a murder warrant under those circumstances.  It would most definitely be presented to the Grand Jury, but how do we know the agency wasn't going to do so?  Grand Jury isn't every week, or every month. 

Of the facts that have been released, it just doesn't look like Zimmerman should be arrested. 

And again, the "character" argument was fine when it was being told how honest and upright of a citizen Trayvon had been.  But bring up a character flaw, and it's a bunch of racial bullshit?  I don't get that.

I'll rely on the "fact" that police say Zimmerman was treated at the scene, and in fact did have injuries. 

I agreee completely with what you're saying.