Trayvon

[djsimp]

Again its unfortunate that this has turned into this racial bs. I think it would be of best interest if we were to look at this without a skin color and see what we felt. Thats sort of what my intent here is but no one wants to play along.

[GH2001]

Bull fucking shit.  You are going to tell me that the post below, made by Garman, had nothing to do with the kids race?  You honestly think the same post would have been made and he would have said the same thing if the kid were white?  Or Chinese?  Bull shit, I'm sorry, that shit is underhanded and apparent. 
 
Regardless, my main point in my previous post is that his character doesn't matter.  The prosecution in a criminal case could not testify about his character unless the defense attacked zimmerman's character....along with other stipulations.  Same thing in a civil court, with less scrutiny.

Sure it may have been a stereotype tongue in cheek (and in your mind maybe tasteless) comment. But racist? I don't think GarMan hates or discriminates against black people solely on the basis they are black. Thats the definition of racism my friend. If you don't like the English language or webster's, then sue them.

[GarMan]

Putting your underhanded racism aside, none of that above matters to the case at hand at all.  And actually, In court, none of that would be admissible.  So, I guess, the entire legal system in the United States, Great Britain, and Common law disagree with you.  They are probably wrong too though, and dumb.

Putting your political correctness aside, none of that will actually matter in court, but the fact still remains that this kid was spiraling out of control.  The school failed to act appropriately, and his parents failed to take the necessary actions.  Now, he's dead. 

[CCTAU]

I'll put it to you this way. Come into my neighborhood wearing a hoodie, trench coat, etc. and walk down my street. I will gut up, get my gun and go ask you what you are doing. This is my community. This is where my family lives. I have just as much right to follow you around as you do to come in here looking suspicious. What is suspicious? Whatever the hell I think it is until you let me know who you are and what's up. It is not illegal to follow someone. I don't care if it was a brother, a skinhead, a mexican, or a longhair liberal puss bag. He was walking in a neighborhood where a WELL ESTABLISHED watch program has been running. (Zimmerman had already called 911 40 something times in the past). Zimmerman probably knew many of the everyday folks. Maybe he should have yelled and asked the kid his name or where he lives.  But that is not mandatory from a legal standpoint. The kid had just moved there so I doubt he was well known.
This is an easy case of self defense. The kid attacked the guy. The guy was beaten BEFORE he pulled his gun. If it had been me, as soon as he stepped toward me, I would have drawn down. Everything about this was handled the wrong way. But illegally, I doubt it.
Also, someone earlier mentioned that the police told him not to follow the kid. I'm not exactly sure if the 911 dispatch is run by police officers. And if we all listened to the 911 dispatchers, we would have a lot of dead citizens sitting beside an untouched gun, in their own house even.

So if all of you whiny little psuedo-libruls could just wait until the real facts come out, you will be able to remove your little hoodies, drop your rope, and cancel your trip next Sunday the Ebenezar Baptist Church in Atlanta.

This is still America and we still have the right to protect our own neighborhoods. The great librul society has not taken that away yet. But that does not stop the great librul media from trying.

[GarMan]

For fuck's same man, just come out and say that black teenagers are subhuman and should be hunted like wild game.

Really? 

I'm not saying this kid was a saint. You've professed a million times that there are no grays, only blacks and whites (no pun intended). There are only extremes with you. Everyone's either Dudley Do Right or Dick Dastardly. You can't process anything beyond the Cro Magnon "this good, this bad".

Huh?  And, this means what?

In this situation, if anyone was "looking for trouble", it was clearly the guy that stalked this kid for several blocks. I could give a fuck if this kid had skipped school in the past.

The guy that stalked this kid was a Neighborhood Watch volunteer.  There's probably some question as to what is reasonable.  I'll give you that, but it doesn't make his actions wrong or justify Trayvon's physical attack. 

You say it's not about race. You can tell me otherwise all you want, but I'm 1000% sure that had this been a white kid walking home from the store and a black dude was following him for blocks and blocks and ultimately shot and killed him, you wouldn't think that kid was "looking for trouble".

All other things being the same with only their races reversed?  You'd be 1000% wrong.  It would be exactly the same thing. 

[GarMan]

Bull fucking shit.  You are going to tell me that the post below, made by Garman, had nothing to do with the kids race?  You honestly think the same post would have been made and he would have said the same thing if the kid were white?  Or Chinese?  Bull shit, I'm sorry, that shit is underhanded and apparent. 

The post below has absolutely nothing to do with the kid's race.  If you reviewed the articles, read ANY of his tweets and still believe otherwise, you're ignoring reality.  This kid was aspiring to be a thug.  If the kid was Asian, Indian, White, Hispanic or whatever and everything else was the same including the grill and the ghetto-slang twitter posts, I would have made EXACTLY the same comments. 

Besides, if you haven't figured it out yet, I pretty much hate everybody equally, especially queer-bait, politically correct twirps who continually believe that they know more than everybody else. 

[JR4AU]

JR is the better one to ask, but...

Generally, unless you are in your home, if you have a gun and they don't, and they don't make you believe they have a gun, then you are in the wrong.  You can't use deadly force unless in a neutral area (at all in some States) unless the same is being used against you.  Fist a cuff's wouldn't be an exception...Unless they were Mike Tyson or some shit.

Regardless of all of that, he was following the kid.  Vigilante-esque, even after the cops told him not too.  He instigated the majority of it. 

   

Also, I agree it should be manslaughter.  I don't know why it is a national story either.  Well, I mean it is retarded that the DA hasn't yet charged him.  Even if the charges aren't successful, they can say they tried.  The guy is a dumbass who had an itchy trigger finger and should not have shot the kid.

FL recently passed a "no retreat" law.  Used to be, outside your home, you had a duty to retreat from attack, if you could.  Now you can stand your ground. 

The facts in this case are, for now, what Zimmerman says, and witnesses.  I understand there's one witness that verifies Zimmerman was on the ground being kicked. 

To use deadly force, you only have to have a reasonable belief that your assailant is about do cause you serious physical injury or death.  IMBLO, being on the ground kicked in the head by a 6 ft tall 17 year old, could easly qualify. 

Zimmerman did nothing wrong in following a suspicious character in his own neighborhood, and it troubles me to hear an American citizen claim "that's the job of the police".  No, we're all responsible for our own safety, and I like it that we have people that take community safety on as a responsibility.   Zimmerman had, in the past, made some 200 calls on suspicious activity in the neighborhood, and never had any kind of trouble due to it. 

There's a minute of time, that only Zimmerman and Trayvon know what happened, and Trayvon is dead.  I've heard the unredacted 911 call (haven't read this whole thread, it may be in here).  Zimmerman sounded calm, and didn't make any threats, and appears to have lost sight of him just before he hung up.  If Trayvon circled back around and confronted Zimmerman, then I think Zimmerman probably gets a pass based on the currently known facts..  There will still be forensics, and they could tell a different story, or tell if Zimmerman's account doesn't match forensics.

I'm reserving final judgement on forensics, but as of now, with the known facts, I'm not saying Zimmerman was "right" but he probably will  be legally cleared.   

[JR4AU]

Let's review some of the facts regarding his recent past...
- The teen was suspended from school three times.  (I'm sure that they were just picking on him.)
- He was on suspension when he was shot in February, after officials caught him with a 'marijuana pipe' and a baggie with drug residue (He was shot?  And oh, that's right...  Marijuana is virtually harmless.  We should feed it to our kids.)
- Trayvon was kicked out of school in October for graffiti after he was allegedly caught with a 'burglary tool' and a bag full of women's jewelry (I'm sure that was one big misunderstanding...)
- Officials also suspended him once for skipping school and tardiness (Why are they picking on this poor innocent yute?)

Probably a good indicator of the character of the young man, but legally speaking it's completely irrelevant to what happened the night he was killed.  Not one shred of that could be considered by a grand jury or jury, and in fact would never be heard by either in making a determination on this case.

[GH2001]

The post below has absolutely nothing to do with the kid's race.  If you reviewed the articles, read ANY of his tweets and still believe otherwise, you're ignoring reality.  This kid was aspiring to be a thug.  If the kid was Asian, Indian, White, Hispanic or whatever and everything else was the same including the grill and the ghetto-slang twitter posts, I would have made EXACTLY the same comments. 

Besides, if you haven't figured it out yet, I pretty much hate everybody equally, especially queer-bait, politically correct twirps who continually believe that they know more than everybody else.

Your last statement is pretty much what I was trying to say. GarMan hates everyone equally - and not because of race but mainly because of perceived stupidity.

Anywho, found a good read on Larry Elder's thoughts on the shooting below.

First bolded part is what I have been trying to nail home.
Second bolded part is an example of the unsubstantiated inference the media has taken a hold of as fact and conveyed it accordingly.

Larry Elder: Trayvon Martin Case Is A ‘Civil Matter,’ Not A Criminal One

Radio host Larry Elder stopped by Good Day LA on Tuesday, where he offered his perspective on the case surrounding Trayvon Martin and his alleged shooter, George Zimmerman.

Much opinion media coverage of Martin’s death has expressed a sense of frustration over the injustice of the situation, with MSNBC’s Lawrence O’Donnell and his panel last night, for instance, emphasizing the fact that Martin had been unarmed while Zimmerman had been in possession of a gun. Speculation as to whether racism may have played a role has also shaped coverage of Martin’s death, as has confusion and frustration over Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” law.

Elder, however, offered perspective that shifted from the common narrative surrounding the teen’s death.  “There’s a big outcry,” Elder observed, “and I think, for PR purposes, we have to look as if we’re concerned about whether or not this 17-year-old was killed.”

Host Jillian Reynolds took exception at his phrasing. “I hate the way you say ‘for PR purposes,’” she told him. “Come on, a child — maybe not a child, but a teenager was killed.”

“Well, why are we sure that the authorities in Florida are not investigating?” he asked. “Why are we sure that they’re not on top of it? They are black law enforcement authorities and officials", he added, "that are very concerned about this case. The idea that Al Sharpton or the Congressional Black Caucus needs to yell and scream for the law enforcement authorities to do their job, I find offensive.”


Elder described Zimmerman as a “neighborhood watch captain concerned about crime” , characterizing his much-analyzed comment to a 911 dispatcher that “they always get away” as testament to his frustration concerning crime.

“Let’s make the case the other way, Larry,” host Steve Edwards interjected, “First of all, you often talk about the ‘race card’ being played too often. Sometimes it’s not a card, sometimes it’s a racial situation — even you would acknowledge that. Here in this situation you have a guy — Zimmerman — 28 years old, he’s a member of the volunteer watch, it’s a neighborhood watch that’s not official with the other neighborhood watches. He’s obviously, it seems to me, to be a guy who loves to be on the prowl, looking for trouble…”

“-Or,” said Elder, “he’s a guy who’s trying to make sure that crime goes down in his neighborhood.”

The takeaway for Elder, as he shared, was that — while it was unequivocally a “bad shooting” – this is ultimately a civil matter, not a criminal one.

And oh yeah, this is Larry Elder.....

[GH2001]

Probably a good indicator of the character of the young man, but legally speaking it's completely irrelevant to what happened the night he was killed.  Not one shred of that could be considered by a grand jury or jury, and in fact would never be heard by either in making a determination on this case.

I think the reason GarMan and others have brought up his "bad" character flaws is because people were defending him on the other side in reference to "good" character traits. Point being, if someone can use the rainbows and unicorn image of his character to defend him, then the same can be done the other way. But yeah, I agree - its not for a courtroom really.

[GarMan]

I'll say this...  The fact that we have such polar opposite positions having read the same facts and reviewed the same information really concerns me.  I've been in situations relatively close to Zimmerman's situation more than a few times.  Over the years, I've had to threaten and literally chase a number of intruders and trespassers from my property, and I usually do so with a firearm in one hand and my cell phone in the other.  I usually need to call the police 3-4 times a year to assist with some of these encounters.  I've also followed fucktards after I've seen them trespass on somebody else's boat or appear take something from somebody else's property.  If they had attacked me, I would have shot them without hesitation.  I wouldn't have thought twice about it.  Would I really be in the wrong?

Somewhat related, about 5 years ago someone tried to steal one of my PWCs.  Luckily, my neighbor was home, and he had the balls and enough patience to hold this person at gunpoint until the police arrived.  If I had encountered this guy stealing my PWC, I probably would have shot him. 

Oh, and he was white, BTW, in case that matters, for the beta boyz... 

[GH2001]

I'll say this...  The fact that we have such polar opposite positions having read the same facts and reviewed the same information really concerns me.  I've been in situations relatively close to Zimmerman's situation more than a few times.  Over the years, I've had to threaten and literally chase a number of intruders and trespassers from my property, and I usually do so with a firearm in one hand and my cell phone in the other.  I usually need to call the police 3-4 times a year to assist with some of these encounters.  I've also followed fucktards after I've seen them trespass on somebody else's boat or appear take something from somebody else's property.  If they had attacked me, I would have shot them without hesitation.  I wouldn't have thought twice about it.  Would I really be in the wrong?

Somewhat related, about 5 years ago someone tried to steal one of my PWCs.  Luckily, my neighbor was home, and he had the balls and enough patience to hold this person at gunpoint until the police arrived.  If I had encountered this guy stealing my PWC, I probably would have shot him. 

Oh, and he was white, BTW, in case that matters, for the beta boyz...

Agree - same here.

An in re: to your last sentence - And I don't know how many times I need to say it, if he were WHITE I would be saying the same thing. No one in this thread is going to tell me I wouldn't because I know I would. Ive done it before when it's been a white on white situation (such as Casey Anthony or other cases where the shithead is white).

BTW - there is a case somewhere in the midwest where a black guy robbed a white 90 year old couple in their own home, killed them and then raped the woman. Racism? I don't think so, but if the opposite happened......

[djsimp]

You're all racist.....the whole lot of you.

[GH2001]

You're all racist.....the whole lot of you.

Might as well be. It's become society's lamest cop out.

[dallaswareagle]

Sporadic facts, context - you have no idea of the big picture and what happened from start to finish.  Do you know why he was following him? No. Do you know why he had a gun? No. 

All you are saying is: there was some poor sweet little black kid just walking along drinking sweet tea and that mean white guy went and got a gun and followed him so he could kill him because he didn't like black people. Got it. Context - it's everything.

I'm glad you guys know exactly what happened and why already, even though this thing isn't even at a grand jury level yet. I don't even know why we need a court or the police here since you seem to have this all figured out. But yeah, you guys know. I'm not taking one side or another - I'm simply trying to sit in the middle and let ALL of the facts play out. I just wish someone who is defending the kid would criticize the black panthers in the same way they are Zimmerman. After all, they ARE inciting and calling for racism and violence. See THS' pics. I guess there is nothing wrong with the word "Cracker".

After all, they ARE inciting and calling for racism and violence. See THS' pics. I guess there is nothing wrong with the word "Cracker".

Not to certain people, it’s more important that they keep their street cred than the truth. Because if the truth is different (tawana brawley) and its and ongoing problem that they are wrong (which it is) they just move on to the next situation.

[dallaswareagle]

You're all racist.....the whole lot of you.

Always wanted to be part of a large group. Who we hatin first?

[djsimp]

Might as well be. It's become society's lamest cop out.

You're white aint you?

[djsimp]

Always wanted to be part of a large group. Who we hatin first?

Well, the black thing is way over done so we should go after the Cubans just because their little island looks like a turd.

[AWK]

I'll say this...  The fact that we have such polar opposite positions having read the same facts and reviewed the same information really concerns me.  I've been in situations relatively close to Zimmerman's situation more than a few times.  Over the years, I've had to threaten and literally chase a number of intruders and trespassers from my property, and I usually do so with a firearm in one hand and my cell phone in the other.  I usually need to call the police 3-4 times a year to assist with some of these encounters.  I've also followed fucktards after I've seen them trespass on somebody else's boat or appear take something from somebody else's property.  If they had attacked me, I would have shot them without hesitation.  I wouldn't have thought twice about it.  Would I really be in the wrong?

Somewhat related, about 5 years ago someone tried to steal one of my PWCs.  Luckily, my neighbor was home, and he had the balls and enough patience to hold this person at gunpoint until the police arrived.  If I had encountered this guy stealing my PWC, I probably would have shot him. 

Oh, and he was white, BTW, in case that matters, for the beta boyz...

Who woulda thunk that you chase people around with a gun and a cell phone...

[GarMan]

Who woulda thunk that you chase people around with a gun and a cell phone...

Yeah...  I'm thuch a brute.  How dare I attempt to protect private property.  What a thilly Neanderthal/Cro-Magnon conthept!!! 

Wait...  What's that enlightened, politically correct opinion regarding private property?  It's only stuff.  Well, something like that, anyway...