Trayvon

[JR4AU]

So you think it's all just made up? No murder occurred? Trayvon's just sitting at his house laughing at this whole thing?

Most sane people can at least recognize that shit went down and it's not "all bullshit." The debate is whether Zimmerman was justified in shooting Trayvon to death via legitimate self-defense, or if he was the provoker that brought the conflict on himself. If you believe the former, then you believe the punishment "is too harsh". If you believe the latter, then you believe "Yes, 2nd degree murder is right." If you buy into Al Sharpton's bullshit, you believe "it's too lenient".

There is no debate over it being "all bullshit". Someone was killed.

It's funny how some of you have shifted your key positions, and yet maintain this facade of objectivity. So before, the law of the land was infallible. If he hadn't been charged, then obviously he was innocent. If they had evidence proving his guilt, then charges would have already been filed.

Now that they have? Oh, the corruption! This whole thing's a sham, and they're just playing to special interests.

"Someone was killed" doesn't necessarily mean it was murder or a crime occurred at all.   Of the evidence  made public, a charge wasn't warranted.  I'm certain we don't know all the evidence.  I know for a fact YOU don't, yet you decided long ago "a murder occurred" so I don't want to hear any bitching about people picking a side.

[JR4AU]

I agree with you 100% on this.

Just for the record, murder doesn't have to have intent to kill. Thats only first degree which is premeditated/lying in wait. JR can correct me if I am wrong but 2nd degree just requires it be a murder (not planned), such as reactionary or spontaneous (in Zimmerman's case), no intent to actually kill even though that may have been the end result.

Florida Statute Zimmerman is charged under:

782.04 Murder.—
(1)(a) The unlawful killing of a human being:

(2)The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, is murder in the second degree and constitutes a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life or as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

Otherwise known as "depraved heart murder" or "reckless murder".  I'm having a hard time, with the facts known, seeing how they prove this.  He either A: intended to kill him, or B: used deadly force in defense of himself, and did so due to a reasonable belief and fear of death or serious bodily injury, or C: did so in fear of death or serious bodily injury, but without that fear being reasonable.  "C" is the only way they can convict him of Muder 2nd Degree IMHO.

First Degree Murder:

782.04 Murder.—
(1)(a) The unlawful killing of a human being:
1. When perpetrated from a premeditated design to effect the death of the person killed or any human being;
2. When committed by a person engaged in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate, any:
a. Trafficking offense prohibited by s. 893.135(1),
b. Arson,
c. Sexual battery,
d. Robbery,
e. Burglary,
f. Kidnapping,
g. Escape,
h. Aggravated child abuse,
i. Aggravated abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult,
j. Aircraft piracy,
k. Unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb,
l. Carjacking,
m. Home-invasion robbery,
n. Aggravated stalking,
o. Murder of another human being,
p. Resisting an officer with violence to his or her person,
q. Felony that is an act of terrorism or is in furtherance of an act of terrorism; or
3. Which resulted from the unlawful distribution of any substance controlled under s. 893.03(1), cocaine as described in s. 893.03(2)(a)4., opium or any synthetic or natural salt, compound, derivative, or preparation of opium, or methadone by a person 18 years of age or older, when such drug is proven to be the proximate cause of the death of the user,
is murder in the first degree and constitutes a capital felony, punishable as provided in s. 775.082.
(b) In all cases under this section, the procedure set forth in s. 921.141 shall be followed in order to determine sentence of death or life imprisonment.

Self Defense Statute:

776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.

Paren 2, deals with defense in the home. 

A possible statute that could come in to play:

782.03 Excusable homicide.—Homicide is excusable when committed by accident and misfortune in doing any lawful act by lawful means with usual ordinary caution, and without any unlawful intent, or by accident and misfortune in the heat of passion, upon any sudden and sufficient provocation, or upon a sudden combat, without any dangerous weapon being used and not done in a cruel or unusual manner.

[GH2001]

I'm with JR in that it is going to be very hard to prove beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury and get everyone of them to believe and agree, that Zimmerman is guilty of 2nd degree murder.

[GH2001]

What are you talking about?

Since the first page of this thread, I've maintained that:
-Zimmerman was following Trayvon suspeciously
-Trayvon took notice, and after unsuccessfully attempting to flee, he attacked Zimmerman
-Caught up in the scuffle, Zimmerman shot Trayvon, killing him.

That's 2nd degree murder.

I'm not saying he went out looking for a black kid to shoot that day. But I'm not saying he is a hero to all either.

Again, it's that middle ground grey area that some here are incapable of seeing.

Unless you can prove that Zimmerman had reckless intent to injure or cause bodily harm from the outset, its not 2nd degree murder. Its Vol. Manslaughter at best.

[GarMan]

I'm with JR in that it is going to be very hard to prove beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury and get everyone of them to believe and agree, that Zimmerman is guilty of 2nd degree murder.

Proving that Zimmerman had a "depraved mind regardless of human life" seems like an impossibility to me.  I'm actually relieved that he's been charged.  It should shutdown a lot of these race-baiting whores.  But, I really don't think there could ever be a fair trial for this case.  At least, we'll eventually get to hear the facts. 

[JR4AU]

What are you talking about?

Since the first page of this thread, I've maintained that:
-Zimmerman was following Trayvon suspeciously
-Trayvon took notice, and after unsuccessfully attempting to flee, he attacked Zimmerman
-Caught up in the scuffle, Zimmerman shot Trayvon, killing him.

That's 2nd degree murder.

I'm not saying he went out looking for a black kid to shoot that day. But I'm not saying he is a hero to all either.

Again, it's that middle ground grey area that some here are incapable of seeing.

No, it's you that A: Can't see the grey area, and B: Have zero understanding of the law regarding self defense.  If the prosecution lays out their case as you described (which they won't) it will result in an acquittal.  Could result in the Judge not even letting the jury have the case, though I don't see that happening at all. 

If Trayvon attacked Zimmerman, Zimmerman wins, period, then end.

[JR4AU]

Unless you can prove that Zimmerman had reckless intent to injure or cause bodily harm from the outset, its not 2nd degree murder. Its Vol. Manslaughter at best.

Recklessness is distinguishable from intent.  In fact, under the statutes in Alabama you can commit reckless murder and reckless manslaughter, but there difference is that for murder, the recklessness must be such that it's virtually indistinguishable from intent to kill.  The best difference I can think of to illustrate is if I fire a gun in the air, and nobody is around, but the bullet comes down and strikes someone, killing them, that's reckless manslaughter.  If I'm standing on the 50 yard line of Bryant Denny with an AK 47 firing mindlessly in to the crowd, that's reckless murder.  I have no particular target in mind, and don't even have a specific intent to kill, but it's still reckless murder if someone dies.    There is no requirement to have any intent to injure at all, it's rather an intent to engage in conduct where it was foreseeable that a death was likely to occur.  In FL, they call it reckless murder, and culpable negligence manslaughter.   

[Token]

The appropriate charge, in my opinion, is manslaughter.  And honestly, it's going to be hard to get Murder 2 past a judge for a jury to hear the case. 

So again, I'm hoping for everyone's sake, that the new special prosecutor's murder 2 charge is based off evidence that we don't have.  If the charge was obtained because of political pressure, they have made a terrible situation worse. 

How many of you would willingly sit on the jury, listen to the facts and make a decision of not guilty knowing you'd be labled as a racist?  Or have the black panthers put bounties on you?  Or have your life and the lives of your family members threatened?  And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the facts will lead to "not guilty", but if they do, will the jurors make that decision knowing the pressure they are going to have?

[Townhallsavoy]

How many of you would willingly sit on the jury, listen to the facts and make a decision of not guilty knowing you'd be labled as a racist?  Or have the black panthers put bounties on you?  Or have your life and the lives of your family members threatened?  And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the facts will lead to "not guilty", but if they do, will the jurors make that decision knowing the pressure they are going to have?

You better believe if I got called to jury duty selection for this case, I'd show up wrapped in a confederate flag with a nazi symbol drawn on my forehead. 

[GH2001]

Recklessness is distinguishable from intent.  In fact, under the statutes in Alabama you can commit reckless murder and reckless manslaughter, but there difference is that for murder, the recklessness must be such that it's virtually indistinguishable from intent to kill.  The best difference I can think of to illustrate is if I fire a gun in the air, and nobody is around, but the bullet comes down and strikes someone, killing them, that's reckless manslaughter.  If I'm standing on the 50 yard line of Bryant Denny with an AK 47 firing mindlessly in to the crowd, that's reckless murder.  I have no particular target in mind, and don't even have a specific intent to kill, but it's still reckless murder if someone dies.    There is no requirement to have any intent to injure at all, it's rather an intent to engage in conduct where it was foreseeable that a death was likely to occur.  In FL, they call it reckless murder, and culpable negligence manslaughter.

I think we agree here.

I guess my point was, Zimmerman had no intent nor had any reason to harm the kid in anyway. I just dont see how 2nd Degree Murder can remotely stick. Like Token said, Manslaughter AT BEST. That's if Stand Your Ground isn't invoked.

[JR4AU]

The appropriate charge, in my opinion, is manslaughter.  And honestly, it's going to be hard to get Murder 2 past a judge for a jury to hear the case. 

So again, I'm hoping for everyone's sake, that the new special prosecutor's murder 2 charge is based off evidence that we don't have.  If the charge was obtained because of political pressure, they have made a terrible situation worse. 

How many of you would willingly sit on the jury, listen to the facts and make a decision of not guilty knowing you'd be labled as a racist?  Or have the black panthers put bounties on you?  Or have your life and the lives of your family members threatened?  And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the facts will lead to "not guilty", but if they do, will the jurors make that decision knowing the pressure they are going to have?

All I can guess is either it's like you said, they have evidence we're not aware of, or she went with Murder 2, will present several theories, and get an instruction on the lesser included charge of Manslaughter. 

[JR4AU]

I think we agree here.

I guess my point was, Zimmerman had no intent nor had any reason to harm the kid in anyway. I just dont see how 2nd Degree Murder can remotely stick. Like Token said, Manslaughter AT BEST. That's if Stand Your Ground isn't invoked.

Stand your ground really doesn't apply here at all.  It's been talked about a lot, but under the facts, or rather the way Zimmerman presents his side of it, he was attacked.  Even under the old law, once the attack was commenced, you had a right to defend yourself.  Under the old law, if you perceived a threat, you had a duty to retreat if possible, but once attacked, you can always defend yourself.  If, as Zimmerman claims, (and as Chad ignorantly believes is totally justified) Trayvon walked up on him and clocked him, then Zimmerman had a right to defend himself, and the real issue, as I see it, based on the known evidence, is what level of force was justified.

[Kaos]

No, it's you that A: Can't see the grey area, and B: Have zero understanding of the law regarding self defense.  If the prosecution lays out their case as you described (which they won't) it will result in an acquittal.  Could result in the Judge not even letting the jury have the case, though I don't see that happening at all. 

If Trayvon attacked Zimmerman, Zimmerman wins, period, then end.

What's funny to me is that now CZ and others have painted Zimmerman as the one behaving "suspiciously." 

Good Lord, the guy was in his own neighborhood where he took on a thankless role in the Neighborhood Watch Program (something that most good neighborhoods use as a selling point with realtors, 'we take care of each other), he clearly took his role in protecting the neighborhood seriously and did all the right things (according to the transcripts of the calls). 

So the guy who's where he's supposed to be and doing what he's supposed to be doing is the "suspicious" one?

Fuck me running.  I honestly believe it's going to take some catastrophic event, something that pushes this country to the brink of extermination, to yank the fucking blinders off so many people. 

I have no ground to stand on here because I was never in a position to do so, but we've got an entire generation that has no idea what it takes to defend and protect this country -- and do that before anything else.  It's a generation now that's raised on the idea that "emotion" trumps reason.  We don't have ANYBODY, it seems, who understands the rules of engagement when it comes to war.  Nobody will make the hard calls, we think we can talk and protest march our way out of anything.

We've lost the concept of patriotism and substituted individual agenda.  We aren't "one nation under God."   

I'm pretty worried actually because it's coming.  Destruction is coming.  Our own people will lead us to it and will eventually have to be crushed. 

[Vandy Vol]

If I'm standing on the 50 yard line of Bryant Denny with an AK 47 firing mindlessly in to the crowd, that's reckless murder.  I have no particular target in mind, and don't even have a specific intent to kill, but it's still reckless murder if someone dies.

I know what target you wouldn't have in mind.

RWS.

Because he's not there.

Ever.

[CCTAU]

What's funny to me is that now CZ and others have painted Zimmerman as the one behaving "suspiciously." 

Good Lord, the guy was in his own neighborhood where he took on a thankless role in the Neighborhood Watch Program (something that most good neighborhoods use as a selling point with realtors, 'we take care of each other), he clearly took his role in protecting the neighborhood seriously and did all the right things (according to the transcripts of the calls). 

So the guy who's where he's supposed to be and doing what he's supposed to be doing is the "suspicious" one?

Fuck me running.  I honestly believe it's going to take some catastrophic event, something that pushes this country to the brink of extermination, to yank the fucking blinders off so many people. 

I have no ground to stand on here because I was never in a position to do so, but we've got an entire generation that has no idea what it takes to defend and protect this country -- and do that before anything else.  It's a generation now that's raised on the idea that "emotion" trumps reason.  We don't have ANYBODY, it seems, who understands the rules of engagement when it comes to war.  Nobody will make the hard calls, we think we can talk and protest march our way out of anything.

We've lost the concept of patriotism and substituted individual agenda.  We aren't "one nation under God."   

I'm pretty worried actually because it's coming.  Destruction is coming.  Our own people will lead us to it and will eventually have to be crushed.

Is this the old "alpha vs. beta male" debate? Or does it go much deeper? Is it because of the emasculation of men in our society? Or, are we just evolving to be more enlightened like our European counterparts?


Whatever it is, I believe, like you, that we are destined to be conquered form within. All that made this nation great will be given away without a whimper. And there won't be any amount of lawyering that will save it.

People say it is ridiculous to compare our society with that of pre-nazi Germany. But ask any old German what they thought at that time. Most will say they didn't realize it happened until it was too late. WE may not be heading to that extreme, but the changes that will bring about this country's demise are happening right now within our own society.

[GH2001]

What's funny to me is that now CZ and others have painted Zimmerman as the one behaving "suspiciously." 

Good Lord, the guy was in his own neighborhood where he took on a thankless role in the Neighborhood Watch Program (something that most good neighborhoods use as a selling point with realtors, 'we take care of each other), he clearly took his role in protecting the neighborhood seriously and did all the right things (according to the transcripts of the calls). 

So the guy who's where he's supposed to be and doing what he's supposed to be doing is the "suspicious" one?

Fuck me running.  I honestly believe it's going to take some catastrophic event, something that pushes this country to the brink of extermination, to yank the fucking blinders off so many people. 

I have no ground to stand on here because I was never in a position to do so, but we've got an entire generation that has no idea what it takes to defend and protect this country -- and do that before anything else.  It's a generation now that's raised on the idea that "emotion" trumps reason.  We don't have ANYBODY, it seems, who understands the rules of engagement when it comes to war.  Nobody will make the hard calls, we think we can talk and protest march our way out of anything.

We've lost the concept of patriotism and substituted individual agenda.  We aren't "one nation under God."   

I'm pretty worried actually because it's coming.  Destruction is coming.  Our own people will lead us to it and will eventually have to be crushed.

The demise of the Romans.....people don't learn.

[AUChizad]

Yes, not killing a man because you find them suspicious despite them being unarmed, is for faggots.

[GH2001]

Yes, not killing a man because you find them suspicious despite them being unarmed, is for faggots.

Chad finally gets it. 

[dallaswareagle]

I know what target you wouldn't have in mind.

RWS.

Because he's not there.

Ever.

If I'm standing on the 50 yard line of Bryant Denny with an AK 47 firing mindlessly in to the crowd, that's reckless murder.  I have no particular target in mind, and don't even have a specific intent to kill, but it's still reckless murder if someone dies.

This is not a crime-This is called a fantasy camp.

[Kaos]

Yes, not killing a man because you find them suspicious despite them being unarmed, is for faggots.

You need to move out of NO.  It done corrupted your brain. 

Next thing we'll see is a picture of you wading through the flood carrying a case of cheap beer.