Trayvon

[AWK]

You're unbelievable. I never claimed that he deserved to be shot.  And, his behavior leading up to this was enough of an indication that he was headed for trouble.  I realize that's more of that old-fashioned, common sense backwards thinking from your perspective, but it's usually right more often than wrong. 

On that actual evening, even if Zimmerman followed him and taunted him, that does not excuse his physical attack of Zimmerman.  And, while we're at it, the police dispatcher is not a police officer.  The police dispatcher did not order or request that Zimmerman stop pursuing Trayvon.  She only suggested it.  That's different than your misunderstanding or misrepresentation of the facts. 

Oh and, race has nothing to do with this. 
Golly...  I wish that I lived in a world blissful ignorance like you.  That sort of mindset could lead to trouble for you one day, but I sincerely hope that it does not.

Y'all bein' racist.  Trayvon was a good kid.  He neva do nuthin' wrong...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2120504/Trayvon-Martin-case-He-suspended-times-caught-burglary-tool.html

Look at dems grillz!


It seems like he was out looking for trouble, and he found it... 

FTFY...

Both of their lives have been destroyed over some stupid shit.  From my perspective, Zimmerman was in the right.  Sure he used deadly force.  You would too if you were being beaten and having your head smashed into the sidewalk. And, Trayvon's character, pics and tweats do matter.  It confirms that he was a hood-in-training. 

Yep, you never insinuated that he should have been shot or that it was about race.  Nothing at all about race in that first post with the picture.  My bad, I'm dumb.

[Townhallsavoy]

I bet Zimmerman gets off with nothing. 

Which will fuel race riots more violent and malicious than the Rodney King riots.  Thanks, media.

[Vandy Vol]

What about the Hunger Games?  It's going to be the last straw before the race wars.

SPOILER WARNING:  The following link contains someone's rant which may reveal several events in the movie.  Don't read if you don't want spoilers.

http://jezebel.com/5896408/racist-hunger-games-fans-dont-care-how-much-money-the-movie-made

[Townhallsavoy]

Seriously?  They're angry that the characters are black? 

I'm more pissed that Lenny Kravitz got a role.  I've never read The Hunger Games, but I know for damn sure that Kravitz is a vapid musical artist fully capable of portraying any onscreen character as a douchebag.

[GarMan]

Yep, you never insinuated that he should have been shot or that it was about race.  Nothing at all about race in that first post with the picture.  My bad, I'm dumb.

Pay attention Strawberry Shortcake.  Your perceptions of what I meant with those comments have nothing to do with reality.  Playing ghetto, gangsta, hood or whatever you want to call it has nothing to do with race.  So, get over yourself already.  Are you implying that only people of a certain race talk ghetto and sport grillz?  It seems to me that you have a bigger problem with your own racial stereotyping, Buttercup.  This has nothing to do with race. 

Let's review some of the facts regarding his recent past...
- The teen was suspended from school three times.  (I'm sure that they were just picking on him.)
- He was on suspension when he was shot in February, after officials caught him with a 'marijuana pipe' and a baggie with drug residue (He was shot?  And oh, that's right...  Marijuana is virtually harmless.  We should feed it to our kids.)
- Trayvon was kicked out of school in October for graffiti after he was allegedly caught with a 'burglary tool' and a bag full of women's jewelry (I'm sure that was one big misunderstanding...)
- Officials also suspended him once for skipping school and tardiness (Why are they picking on this poor innocent yute?)

If his behavior isn't overwhelmingly obvious that he was headed for trouble, I don't know what planet you're from. 

Yes...  You are dumb...  Beyond dumb, in fact...   

[AWK]

Pay attention Strawberry Shortcake.  Your perceptions of what I meant with those comments have nothing to do with reality.  Playing ghetto, gangsta, hood or whatever you want to call it has nothing to do with race.  So, get over yourself already.  Are you implying that only people of a certain race talk ghetto and sport grillz?  It seems to me that you have a bigger problem with your own racial stereotyping, Buttercup.  This has nothing to do with race. 

Let's review some of the facts regarding his recent past...
- The teen was suspended from school three times.  (I'm sure that they were just picking on him.)
- He was on suspension when he was shot in February, after officials caught him with a 'marijuana pipe' and a baggie with drug residue (He was shot?  And oh, that's right...  Marijuana is virtually harmless.  We should feed it to our kids.)
- Trayvon was kicked out of school in October for graffiti after he was allegedly caught with a 'burglary tool' and a bag full of women's jewelry (I'm sure that was one big misunderstanding...)
- Officials also suspended him once for skipping school and tardiness (Why are they picking on this poor innocent yute?)

If his behavior isn't overwhelmingly obvious that he was headed for trouble, I don't know what planet you're from. 

Yes...  You are dumb...  Beyond dumb, in fact...   

Putting your underhanded racism aside, none of that above matters to the case at hand at all.  And actually, In court, none of that would be admissible.  So, I guess, the entire legal system in the United States, Great Britain, and Common law disagree with you.  They are probably wrong too though, and dumb. 

[AUChizad]

FTFY...

Both of their lives have been destroyed over some stupid shit.  From my perspective, Zimmerman was in the right.  Sure he used deadly force.  You would too if you were being beaten and having your head smashed into the sidewalk.  And, Trayvon's character, pics and tweats do matter.  It confirms that he was a hood-in-training.

For fuck's same man, just come out and say that black teenagers are subhuman and should be hunted like wild game.

I'm not saying this kid was a saint. You've professed a million times that there are no grays, only blacks and whites (no pun intended). There are only extremes with you. Everyone's either Dudley Do Right or Dick Dastardly. You can't process anything beyond the Cro Magnon "this good, this bad".

In this situation, if anyone was "looking for trouble", it was clearly the guy that stalked this kid for several blocks. I could give a fuck if this kid had skipped school in the past.

You say it's not about race. You can tell me otherwise all you want, but I'm 1000% sure that had this been a white kid walking home from the store and a black dude was following him for blocks and blocks and ultimately shot and killed him, you wouldn't think that kid was "looking for trouble".

[GH2001]

It's pretty simple in my eyes, deadly force = deadly force.  The kid didn't have a gun, didn't brandish such, and therefore could not have posed a deadly threat to Zimmerman.  Zimmerman followed him because he thought the kid was suspicious.  That is the job of the police.  The police dispatcher told him not to follow the kid.  Deadly force =/= deadly force in this case.  Zimmerman was wrong.

I had no idea a gun was the only way to use deadly force. I would say beating someone's head against the ground is pretty deadly.

And you have no idea if he was wrong. We haven't heard any of this in front of a grand jury yet. No official evidence, just a bunch of sketchy details from the "Trayvon" side. All of this vigilante justice and racial crap is unreal. We do not even know what really happened yet.

How does anyone KNOW that this guy was profiling? We don't. Sharpton and Jackson and the Black Panthers know that this pot has to be stirred whether it's justified or not in order to keep themselves in business. They exist to exist. Pathetic. 

You as a lawyer should know more than anyone that in this country people are innocent until proven guilty and burden of proof is on the accuser, fair and speedy trial, etc etc. Let's let this play out and see what happens. Let the dust settle before we make any assumptions of guilt. Although, no matter what is found, I fear that the rebel rousers like Sharpton will attempt to spin this to something racial regardless because it's his job.

[GH2001]

Sorry, missed that part; the witness acknowledged seeing Trayvon on top and beating Zimmerman, but the article doesn't say whether the witness saw the shooting or not.  I would assume he did, unless he turned away, which isn't likely, but that part of the witness's story is noticeably absent from the article.

The witness's testimony will be what will help Zimmerman, but ideally it should still go to a court of law, as it is there that the credibility of the witnesses can be determined, as well as the existence of any other evidence.

Like the OJ case - IF this goes to trial, you know as well as I do that the Prosecutor's #1 priority here will be to tear down the credibility of the witness. They know this is Zimmerman's trump card. Even besides that, the guy had physical wounds consistent  with the story of getting his head beat into the ground, so I am not even sure if that would be a full proof method.

.02 from JR since that's what he does??

[AUChizad]

I had no idea a gun was the only way to use deadly force. I would say beating someone's head against the ground is pretty deadly.

And you have no idea if he was wrong. We haven't heard any of this in front of a grand jury yet. No official evidence, just a bunch of sketchy details from the "Trayvon" side. All of this vigilante justice and racial crap is unreal. We do not even know what really happened yet.

How does anyone KNOW that this guy was profiling? We don't. Sharpton and Jackson and the Black Panthers know that this pot has to be stirred whether it's justified or not in order to keep themselves in business. They exist to exist. Pathetic. 

You as a lawyer should know more than anyone that in this country people are innocent until proven guilty and burden of proof is on the accuser, fair and speedy trial, etc etc. Let's let this play out and see what happens. Let the dust settle before we make any assumptions of guilt. Although, no matter what is found, I fear that the rebel rousers like Sharpton will attempt to spin this to something racial regardless because it's his job.

Eliminate race entirely. Make it two black guys...well, then GarMan would wish they both got shot and say "good riddance".

Make it two white guys. If any person follows any other person with a gun through a neighborhood (which is the part we do know for sure), that person is the one in the wrong.

Let's just say Trayvon's family's accounts are completely false.

Still, you have a guy following a teenage kid through a neighborhood with a gun. Can you really say you might not do the same if you were in that kid's shoes? Ask the guy what his fucking problem is? Maybe even try to kick his ass to disarm him (if you were badass enough)?

[GH2001]

Putting your underhanded racism aside, none of that above matters to the case at hand at all.  And actually, In court, none of that would be admissible.  So, I guess, the entire legal system in the United States, Great Britain, and Common law disagree with you.  They are probably wrong too though, and dumb.

Can I google the definition of racism for you? GarMan (nor anyone else in this thread) dislikes the kid because he is black. I'm thinking GarMan is trying to emphasize the fact the kid had a history of trouble making. And he was probably doing the same thing in this case. When you go looking for trouble, you will usually find it. I (and I suspect GarMan too) would be saying the same thing if this kid were white, chinese or hispanic. If that last statement is being said in total truth, then I am not sure how someone can be branded a racist. I hate the white trouble makers as well. Sometimes even moreso (ie - Updyke).

[GH2001]

Eliminate race entirely. Make it two black guys...well, then GarMan would wish they both got shot and say "good riddance".

Make it two white guys. If any person follows any other person with a gun through a neighborhood (which is the part we do know for sure), that person is the one in the wrong.

Let's just say Trayvon's family's accounts are completely false.

Still, you have a guy following a teenage kid through a neighborhood with a gun. Can you really say you might not do the same if you were in that kid's shoes? Ask the guy what his fucking problem is? Maybe even try to kick his ass to disarm him (if you were badass enough)?

I don't think he would say that at all. Very few would. And you speculating he would is pure conjecture.

Again, we don't know officially what happened step by step from start to finish. Details are sporadic at best and I would like to see this thoroughly looked at before I jump to any final conclusion.

Two things I do know at this point just looking at both guys' historical records: Trayvon was no saint. Zimmerman is not a cold blooded murderer at this time.

Like AWK and someone else said, manslaughter in self defense maybe. Again, thats what we THINK we know at this point. It would be nice for a grand jury to hear every detail that exists before rushing to judgement. Even from 3 days ago, stories and accounts have already changed paths. People tend to tell the truth more in a courtroom under oath than they do in the media. That's why I don't want to rush to judgement like the MSM is doing.

[djsimp]

Its unfortunate that this is/will be a race driven case, almost to the point of forcing the hand of the officials. I have watched as much video, call recordings, so called eye-witness accounts and TV lawyer deliberations that I can stomach. The first thing that stands out to me is why in the hell is a neighborhood watch dog going around with a gun following people. Not a police man, not even a security guard but a neighborhood watch dog. Sure the kid may have been acting shady and hell, more than likely Zimmerman knew Trayvon. He probably knew the kid smoked some weed, tag some buildings and had some trouble at school. He probably even thought in the back of his mind that "this kid may whip my ass", hence toting his gun with him as he followed the kid. Still, Z calls the police in some sort of fear but doesn't pause to what the dispatcher says to him. Then why call the fucking police in the first place? Why in the hell does he get out of his vehicle? Why not wait till the police gets there? Sorry, but something tells me either Zimmerman wanted to be a hero or just plain didn't like the kid.

Also, no 16 year old kid is gonna be slamming my head against the concrete for crying out loud. I need no gun
to do what I would do to the kid that tried such.

[GH2001]

Its unfortunate that this is/will be a race driven case, almost to the point of forcing the hand of the officials. I have watched as much video, call recordings, so called eye-witness accounts and TV lawyer deliberations that I can stomach. The first thing that stands out to me is why in the hell is a neighborhood watch dog going around with a gun following people. Not a police man, not even a security guard but a neighborhood watch dog. Sure the kid may have been acting shady and hell, more than likely Zimmerman knew Trayvon. He probably knew the kid smoked some weed, tag some buildings and had some trouble at school. He probably even thought in the back of his mind that "this kid may whip my ass", hence toting his gun with him as he followed the kid. Still, Z calls the police in some sort of fear but doesn't pause to what the dispatcher says to him. Then why call the fucking police in the first place? Why in the hell does he get out of his vehicle? Why not wait till the police gets there? Sorry, but something tells me either Zimmerman wanted to be a hero or just plain didn't like the kid.

Also, no 16 year old kid is gonna be slamming my head against the concrete for crying out loud. I need no gun
to do what I would do to the kid that tried such.

Again...WE DON'T REALLY KNOW WHAT HAPPENED! Much of this fact that you reiterated is coming from the girl on the other end of the cell phone (that she said was cutting out) and the story has changed twice already. I want to hear this entire thing from every witness account, UNDER OATH - before I draw any conclusion. People are rushing to judgement in one particular direction without any hard facts. Doing this is not good for the country as a whole as it is getting a shit ton of people riled up to dangerous levels (black panthers). Let's hear this thing out completely. If Zimmerman was a scumbag in how he dealt with this, then we can all be outraged. Until then......people need to cool their jets.

[djsimp]

Again...WE DON'T REALLY KNOW WHAT HAPPENED! Much of this fact that you reiterated is coming from the girl on the other end of the cell phone (that she said was cutting out) and the story has changed twice already. I want to hear this entire thing from every witness account, UNDER OATH - before I draw any conclusion. People are rushing to judgement in one particular direction without any hard facts. Doing this is not good for the country as a whole as it is getting a shit ton of people riled up to dangerous levels (black panthers). Let's hear this thing out completely. If Zimmerman was a scumbag in how he dealt with this, then we can all be outraged. Until then......people need to cool their jets.

In the dispatch call, if I'm not mistaken, Zimmerman said he was following the kid. Other witness accounts said Zimmerman had a gun. Its obvious that Zimmerman got out of his vehicle unless a new twist is that Trayvon drug Z out his vehicle to slam his head against the ground. Those are my points and by those points Zimmerman, in my opinion, is not a very smart cat.

[AWK]

Can I google the definition of racism for you? GarMan (nor anyone else in this thread) dislikes the kid because he is black. I'm thinking GarMan is trying to emphasize the fact the kid had a history of trouble making. And he was probably doing the same thing in this case. When you go looking for trouble, you will usually find it. I (and I suspect GarMan too) would be saying the same thing if this kid were white, chinese or hispanic. If that last statement is being said in total truth, then I am not sure how someone can be branded a racist. I hate the white trouble makers as well. Sometimes even moreso (ie - Updyke).

Bull fucking shit.  You are going to tell me that the post below, made by Garman, had nothing to do with the kids race?  You honestly think the same post would have been made and he would have said the same thing if the kid were white?  Or Chinese?  Bull shit, I'm sorry, that shit is underhanded and apparent. 
 
Regardless, my main point in my previous post is that his character doesn't matter.  The prosecution in a criminal case could not testify about his character unless the defense attacked zimmerman's character....along with other stipulations.  Same thing in a civil court, with less scrutiny. 

Y'all bein' racist.  Trayvon was a good kid.  He neva do nuthin' wrong...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2120504/Trayvon-Martin-case-He-suspended-times-caught-burglary-tool.html

Look at dems grillz!


It seems like he was out looking for trouble, and he found it... 

[AWK]

In the dispatch call, if I'm not mistaken, Zimmerman said he was following the kid. Other witness accounts said Zimmerman had a gun. Its obvious that Zimmerman got out of his vehicle unless a new twist is that Trayvon drug Z out his vehicle to slam his head against the ground. Those are my points and by those points Zimmerman, in my opinion, is not a very smart cat.

The have recorded conversations that say just that...but facts be damned. 

[Token]

Looking at the prosecution side of the investigation, how can anyone say Zimmerman should be charged with murder?  He was an active member of a neighborhood watch program.  He obviously shouldn't have tried to make contact with the guy, but did he commit a crime by following the guy?  No.  Was it smart?  No.  But still didn't commit a crime. 

Then there was an altercation, in which at least one witness says he saw the kid on top of Zimmerman pounding his head into the concrete.

Where is the case?  Zimmerman can easily argue that he was in fear for his life.  I can see the police agency presenting the case to the Grand Jury, but obtaining a murder warrant?  I don't see it.  Not with a witness who saw Zimmerman being attacked. 


And I'm already sick and tired of people whining about the "character" issue.  Nobody had a problem for the last week when everyone who knew the kid wanted to stand and shout how great of a person he was was.  But now that the media has found out that he wasn't squeaky clean, "what kind of person he was" shouldn't matter.


In the end, I'll be shocked if Zimmerman is convicted of murder, or even manslaughter. 
 

[Token]

Also, it would be interesting to know what kind of a relationship the police agency has with Zimmerman?  Why would they risk a national outcry by not charging Zimmerman unless they really didn't have a case? 

[GH2001]

The have recorded conversations that say just that...but facts be damned.

Sporadic facts, context - you have no idea of the big picture and what happened from start to finish.  Do you know why he was following him? No. Do you know why he had a gun? No. 

All you are saying is: there was some poor sweet little black kid just walking along drinking sweet tea and that mean white guy went and got a gun and followed him so he could kill him because he didn't like black people. Got it. Context - it's everything.

I'm glad you guys know exactly what happened and why already, even though this thing isn't even at a grand jury level yet. I don't even know why we need a court or the police here since you seem to have this all figured out. But yeah, you guys know. I'm not taking one side or another - I'm simply trying to sit in the middle and let ALL of the facts play out. I just wish someone who is defending the kid would criticize the black panthers in the same way they are Zimmerman. After all, they ARE inciting and calling for racism and violence. See THS' pics. I guess there is nothing wrong with the word "Cracker".