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Trayvon

JR4AU

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Re: Trayvon
« Reply #160 on: March 30, 2012, 01:37:32 PM »
Leopards are leopards.

Which is why if they have past leopardly acts in their history, and  you charge them with a current leopardly act, you can get that past leopardly act in.  But if you charge the leopard with a baboon like act, the past leopardly behavior isnt' relevant.
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CCTAU

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Re: Trayvon
« Reply #161 on: March 30, 2012, 01:46:40 PM »
fixt

Work with me here!

Trouble, trouble makers, things out of the ordinary, etc..
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Five statements of WISDOM
1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity, by legislating the wealth out of prosperity.
2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.
3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.
4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.
5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friends, is the beginning of the end of any nation.

Kaos

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Re: Trayvon
« Reply #162 on: March 30, 2012, 01:50:53 PM »
Which is why if they have past leopardly acts in their history, and  you charge them with a current leopardly act, you can get that past leopardly act in.  But if you charge the leopard with a baboon like act, the past leopardly behavior isnt' relevant.

Character matters.
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If you want free cheese, look in a mousetrap.

GarMan

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Re: Trayvon
« Reply #163 on: March 30, 2012, 01:51:48 PM »
I love how you say all evidence and facts point one way, towards your view,  yet JR and others argue that we don't know all the facts yet and should wait for their release.  Which is it?  Are all of the facts released?  Or do you just rabble rabble rabble along and don't even realize what has been said?
The known evidence, the accounts that we can assume to be correct and the legal situation support what many of us have been saying.  I don't doubt that there are still more facts to be ascertained and evidence to be discovered.  Are we really at the point where I need to start quoting my previous comments to verify what I posted?  Aside from that, I really love how you guys assemble your own set of speculative occurrences to support your silly-assed positions. 

I really don't understand your incapability of seeing another persons point.  Everything isn't always black or white, and I hate to break it to you buddy, but you aren't always right.   
I think that's exactly the point.  I'm really just trying to understand your gurlz's position.  Accusing a Neighborhood Watch volunteer of looking for trouble seems to be a completely absurd position.  But, you seem to find absolutely nothing wrong with a kid who wandered into a gated community, after hours, behaving suspiciously and attacking an adult.  It's not so much that you're both wrong here.  You gurlz are not even being reasonably objective in your analysis or understanding of the situation. 
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My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them.  - Winston Churchill

Eating and sleeping are the only activities that should be allowed to interrupt a man's enjoyment of his cigar.  - Mark Twain

Nothing says "Obey Me" like a bloody head on a fence post!  - Stewie Griffin

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."  - Ayn Rand

GarMan

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Re: Trayvon
« Reply #164 on: March 30, 2012, 01:54:01 PM »
But if you charge the leopard with a baboon like act, the past leopardly behavior isnt' relevant.
Baboon one day (Isn't that racist?)...  Leopard the next...  He's still behaving like an animal, but I understand your point. 
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My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them.  - Winston Churchill

Eating and sleeping are the only activities that should be allowed to interrupt a man's enjoyment of his cigar.  - Mark Twain

Nothing says "Obey Me" like a bloody head on a fence post!  - Stewie Griffin

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."  - Ayn Rand

JR4AU

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Re: Trayvon
« Reply #165 on: March 30, 2012, 01:57:54 PM »
Character matters.

It does.  But it's tricky.  Because a person is of bad character, doesn't mean they committed any particular act they're charged with.  If you were charged with a crime, can you think of enough things from your past, that if offered against you, might make you look less than savory, if presented as snapshots in time? 

While it's not a perfect system, I'd rather err on the side of just trying the evidence at hand, than trying to convict people because I can convince 12 people they're of bad character, or simply unlikeable, and therefor must have done what they're charged with.   

Not all evidence of bad character or bad acts is excluded. 

Here's the rule:

Quote
RULES OF EVIDENCE

Article IV. RELEVANCY AND ITS LIMITS

As amended through January 1, 2012

Rule 404. Character evidence not admissible to prove conduct; exceptions; other crimes, wrongs, or acts

(a) Character evidence generally. Evidence of a person's character or a trait of character is not admissible for the purpose of proving action in conformity therewith on a particular occasion, except:

(1) CHARACTER OF ACCUSED. Evidence of character offered by an accused, or by the prosecution to rebut the same;

(2) CHARACTER OF VICTIM.

(A) In criminal cases. (i) Evidence of a pertinent trait of character of the victim of the crime offered by an accused, or by the prosecution to rebut the same, or (ii) evidence of a character trait of peacefulness of the victim offered by the prosecution in a homicide case to rebut evidence that the victim was the first aggressor;

(B) In civil cases. Evidence of character for violence of the victim of assaultive conduct offered on the issue of self-defense by a party accused of assaultive conduct, or evidence of character for peacefulness to rebut the same;

(3) CHARACTER OF WITNESS. Evidence of the character of a witness, as provided in Rules 607, 608, 609, and 616.

(b) Other crimes, wrongs, or acts. Evidence of other crimes, wrongs, or acts is not admissible to prove the character of a person in order to show action in conformity therewith. It may, however, be admissible for other purposes, such as proof of motive, opportunity, intent, preparation, plan, knowledge, identity, or absence of mistake or accident, provided that upon request by the accused, the prosecution in a criminal case shall provide reasonable notice in advance of trial, or during trial if the court excuses pretrial notice on good cause shown, of the general nature of any such evidence it intends to introduce at trial.
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Tarheel

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Re: Trayvon
« Reply #166 on: March 30, 2012, 02:11:41 PM »
Character matters.

Quote
I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.
Martin Luther King, Jr.  28 August 1963

Character does matter and while it is not entirely admissible in court I don't think that a jury will be able to recuse themselves entirely from looking at the character of both Zimmerman and Martin should this case ever go to court.  We don't know all of the facts of this incident so passing judgement on either of these men is, at best, an academic study.  At worst...in my humble opinion it just brings out the emotionally-charged ugliness in our society.
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dallaswareagle

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Re: Trayvon
« Reply #167 on: March 30, 2012, 03:20:45 PM »
(my best guess) I think forensic will clear this up. If he was on bottom (as in getting beat up) and shot him, bullet would have entered lower part of chest and traveled in an upward trajectory and the exact opposite if he was on top. Of course if this becomes the case there will be some that say the coroner is on it to protect the shooter.

This has become a no win for anybody. If they come up and decide not to press any charges I hope the governor is smart enough to put the National Guard on alert. Because we all know it’s ok to show your displeasure when you disagree with something to ransack your city, stores and your neighborhood.     
« Last Edit: March 30, 2012, 04:25:43 PM by dallaswareagle »
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A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to 'The United States of America ' for an amount of 'up to and including my life.' That is Honor, and there are way too many people in this country who no longer understand it.'

GarMan

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Re: Trayvon
« Reply #168 on: March 30, 2012, 04:06:31 PM »
Because we all know it’s ok to show your displeasure when you disagree with something to ranch sack ransack your city, stores and your neighborhood.   
That'll just give people like me and other angry white men more target practice.  Wait...  What?
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My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them.  - Winston Churchill

Eating and sleeping are the only activities that should be allowed to interrupt a man's enjoyment of his cigar.  - Mark Twain

Nothing says "Obey Me" like a bloody head on a fence post!  - Stewie Griffin

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."  - Ayn Rand

GH2001

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Re: Trayvon
« Reply #169 on: March 30, 2012, 04:28:17 PM »
That'll just give people like me and other angry white men more target practice.  Wait...  What?

If you would just quit being a "typical white person" clinging to your guns and religion. You racist evil devil nazi.
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WDE

GarMan

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Re: Trayvon
« Reply #170 on: March 31, 2012, 01:15:37 PM »
If you would just quit being a "typical white person" clinging to your guns and religion. You racist evil devil nazi.
The unfortunate thing here is that while we joke about these absurd racially charged positions, people like AUJizzad and Tail actually believe this sort of race-baiting propaganda.  Never mind the fact that if you completely take race out of this, I still end up with my same conclusions.  A Neighborhood Watch volunteer was observing a suspicious person in a gated community... 
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My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them.  - Winston Churchill

Eating and sleeping are the only activities that should be allowed to interrupt a man's enjoyment of his cigar.  - Mark Twain

Nothing says "Obey Me" like a bloody head on a fence post!  - Stewie Griffin

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."  - Ayn Rand

JR4AU

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Re: Trayvon
« Reply #171 on: March 31, 2012, 01:28:39 PM »
The unfortunate thing here is that while we joke about these absurd racially charged positions, people like AUJizzad and Tail actually believe this sort of race-baiting propaganda.  Never mind the fact that if you completely take race out of this, I still end up with my same conclusions.  A Neighborhood Watch volunteer was observing a suspicious person in a gated community...

I thought it ironic that Chizad was so spot on about the picking of sides based on race, yet he has swallowed, hook, line and sinker, the Trayvon/Race baiting side of this issue. 

But here's the thing, neither side, at least not the extremes, which are the ones most vocal, give one shit about the truth.   Trayvon's people, Jesse, and Al, don't give a single shit about what happened out there that night, they only care about shouting "he shot an unarmed 17 year old boy with a pocket full of skittles".   And yes there's an equal and opposite extreme too. 
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Re: Trayvon
« Reply #172 on: March 31, 2012, 01:57:46 PM »
But here's the thing, neither side, at least not the extremes, which are the ones most vocal, give one shit about the truth.   Trayvon's people, Jesse, and Al, don't give a single shit about what happened out there that night, they only care about shouting "he shot an unarmed 17 year old boy with a pocket full of skittles".   And yes there's an equal and opposite extreme too.

What I find amusing are the protests, and how the police should arrest Zimmerman.  What I want to ask is, "and charge him with what?"  If the DA thought he had a good case for murder or manslaughter, wouldn't he have already arrested him?
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CCTAU

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Re: Trayvon
« Reply #173 on: March 31, 2012, 11:13:24 PM »
What I find amusing are the protests, and how the police should arrest Zimmerman.  What I want to ask is, "and charge him with what?"  If the DA thought he had a good case for murder or manslaughter, wouldn't he have already arrested him?

They are currently trying DESPERATELY to find a case.
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Five statements of WISDOM
1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity, by legislating the wealth out of prosperity.
2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.
3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.
4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.
5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friends, is the beginning of the end of any nation.

JR4AU

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Re: Trayvon
« Reply #174 on: March 31, 2012, 11:29:28 PM »
They are currently trying DESPERATELY to find a case.
Finding probable cause is a damn sight from finding beyond a reasonable doubt.  If the DA is struggling with PC....
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djsimp

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Re: Trayvon
« Reply #175 on: April 02, 2012, 10:50:57 AM »
They are currently trying DESPERATELY to find a case.

This is what I find the most unfortunate thing about this. Folks are trying to force the law into action based on a racial premise. Take race out of the picture, then you remove the pressure, then you have a clear headed conclusion.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2012, 11:20:53 AM by djsimp »
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RWS

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Re: Trayvon
« Reply #176 on: April 02, 2012, 11:11:42 AM »
This is what I find the most unfortunate thing about this. Folks are trying to force that law into action based on a racial premise. Take race out of the picture, then you remove the pressure, then you have a clear headed conclusion.
Exactly.

I just don't see how this is so fucking hard for some people to wrap their heads around. When you remove all of the bullshit surrounding this, you're left with at least one witness who says they SAW the kid attacking this guy. They didn't hear and formed their own opinion based on what they heard. They saw what they saw. That is going to be admissable in court all day long. The "I heard, and my opinion is...." bullshit would get ripped to shreds in a nanosecond. I don't give two fucks if this kid was 10, 17, or 50. If he physically attacked somebody, unarmed or not, it's on like Donkey Kong. Especially if we're talking about this kid hitting the guy's head into the ground. But I don't really think that's a deal breaker either. Make whatever assumptions you want to make about the past of both parties, but at the end of the day, it appears that at this time you're left with a guy who was attacked and shot his attacker.
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AUChizad

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Re: Trayvon
« Reply #177 on: April 02, 2012, 11:29:59 AM »
Exactly.

I just don't see how this is so fucking hard for some people to wrap their heads around. When you remove all of the bullshit surrounding this, you're left with at least one witness who says they SAW the kid attacking this guy. They didn't hear and formed their own opinion based on what they heard. They saw what they saw. That is going to be admissable in court all day long. The "I heard, and my opinion is...." bullshit would get ripped to shreds in a nanosecond. I don't give two fucks if this kid was 10, 17, or 50. If he physically attacked somebody, unarmed or not, it's on like Donkey Kong. Especially if we're talking about this kid hitting the guy's head into the ground. But I don't really think that's a deal breaker either. Make whatever assumptions you want to make about the past of both parties, but at the end of the day, it appears that at this time you're left with a guy who was attacked and shot his attacker.
Also at the end of the day, Zimmerman "started it" by following this kid to a point where he felt threatened enough to try to run away from Zimmerman, who chased him on foot and lamented that "the assholes always get away", and then when that didn't work resulted to attacking him. And then Zimmerman shot and killed someone who was unarmed, which is not equal force.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2012, 11:32:04 AM by AUChizad »
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djsimp

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Re: Trayvon
« Reply #178 on: April 02, 2012, 11:41:02 AM »
Also at the end of the day, Zimmerman "started it" by following this kid to a point where he felt threatened enough to try to run away from Zimmerman, who chased him on foot and lamented that "the assholes always get away", and then when that didn't work resulted to attacking him. And then Zimmerman shot and killed someone who was unarmed, which is not equal force.

To be honest, this is exactly the way my thinking was swayed because its exactly the way the media was painting the picture. After stepping back and removing the so called race card element, things are not as murky. The point this whole case has gotten to now, I have stopped paying attention to it. Of course I would want the justice to be served and all but at this point I am more concerned if this thing turns into a full blown catastrophe.
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AUChizad

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Re: Trayvon
« Reply #179 on: April 02, 2012, 11:48:40 AM »
To be honest, this is exactly the way my thinking was swayed because its exactly the way the media was painting the picture. After stepping back and removing the so called race card element, things are not as murky. The point this whole case has gotten to now, I have stopped paying attention to it. Of course I would want the justice to be served and all but at this point I am more concerned if this thing turns into a full blown catastrophe.
How did the media "paint it" that way?

• Zimmerman followed the kid through the neighborhood - Confirmed by the 911 call, and Zimmerman's accounts
• Martin felt threatened enough to try to run away from Zimmerman, who chased him on foot and lamented that "the assholes always get away" - Confirmed by the 911 call.
• And then Zimmerman shot and killed someone who was unarmed, which is not equal force - Is this not completely fact? Maybe there's room for debate as to whether or not Martin's attack should be considered "deadly force", but typically fisticuffs are not.
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