Holy crap...

[Snaggletiger]

The best and worst part of actually having a stance and trying to argue it on Tigersx?  Only 1 or 2 people really attempt to combat your argument, and the rest are just assholes who enjoy pissing people off.

And?

[JR4AU]

I understand that players can be injured by perfectly legal hits.  I understand that a player doesn't need to have the intent to injure someone just because he hit him hard.

But, when you have a system in place which specifically rewards injury by paying a player who causes their opponent to require assistance getting off the field clear that this was Williams' intent for the system, and based upon the drastic increase in penalties, he got the result he wanted: players intentionally trying to satisfy bounty objectives.

Exactly what Ive been trying to say!

[djsimp]

Exactly what Ive been trying to say!

Then why didn't you just say it already?

[JR4AU]

Then why didn't you just say it already?

 I thought I did at least five times

[AWK]

With you, Token nailed it.

You agree with my main point, that the hysteria over the intent to harm is largely manufactured, and impossible to prove. And then in the same breath emphatically can't state enough that you couldn't disagree with me more and that the Saints deserved worse.

The reason they got in so much trouble was because of the bounty system and the lies, not the intent to harm.

[Vandy Vol]

Exactly what Ive been trying to say!

 

I've said that multiple times in different posts, albeit in different manners, but whatevs.  As long as we agree that Chad is a homer idiot, then the world is at peace.

[Vandy Vol]

The reason they got in so much trouble was because of the bounty system and the lies, not the intent to harm.

A combination of elements made this matter particularly unusual and egregious.  When there is targeting of players for injury and cash rewards over a three-year period, the involvement of the coaching staff, and three years of denials and willful disrespect of the rules, a strong and lasting message must be sent that such conduct is totally unacceptable and has no place in the game.

[Snaggletiger]

Hey, I just came in from out of town.  What are you guys talking about?

[Vandy Vol]

Hey, I just came in from out of town.  What are you guys talking about?

Gay sex.  Wanna join?

[Godfather]

 As long as we agree that Chad is a homer idiot, then the world is at peace.

[AUChizad]

I'm well aware that we're past the point where everything I say will be rejected as barking lunacy, and won't be considered rationally for one second.

But I feel like wasting my proverbial breath.

So if everyone accepts that Gregg Williams was the mastermind, and that he did this everywhere else he's been, and there are even more blatant accounts of him doing this at other programs (http://espn.go.com/blog/nfceast/post/_/id/37375/what-gregg-williams-did-in-washington), and he is no longer associated with the New Orleans Saints, then how can you scorch the Earth in New Orleans, and do absolutely nothing to Jacksonville or Washington, or even Buffalo for that matter?

[Snaggletiger]

I'm well aware that we're past the point where everything I say will be rejected as barking lunacy, and won't be considered rationally for one second.

But I feel like wasting my proverbial breath.

So if everyone accepts that Gregg Williams was the mastermind, and that he did this everywhere else he's been, and there are even more blatant accounts of him doing this at other programs (http://espn.go.com/blog/nfceast/post/_/id/37375/what-gregg-williams-did-in-washington), and he is no longer associated with the New Orleans Saints, then how can you scorch the Earth in New Orleans, and do absolutely nothing to Jacksonville or Washington, or even Buffalo for that matter?

A couple of things here.  As many have said and I agree with as well, the Saints got hit hard due to not being forthcoming and the NFL's need to bolster their defense to claims of not doing enough about player safety.  Now, having said that, I totally agree that Goodell can't single NO out and lay off every other team if they have in fact, engaged in the same practice.  As many here have also pointed out....bounties are illegal in the NFL...whether they're for injuries or good plays...regardless of the amounts paid out. 

[Vandy Vol]

So if everyone accepts that Gregg Williams was the mastermind, and that he did this everywhere else he's been, and there are even more blatant accounts of him doing this at other programs (http://espn.go.com/blog/nfceast/post/_/id/37375/what-gregg-williams-did-in-washington), and he is no longer associated with the New Orleans Saints, then how can you scorch the Earth in New Orleans, and do absolutely nothing to Jacksonville or Washington, or even Buffalo for that matter?

Should Washington be punished?  Well, I haven't heard anything about their coaches lying about anything, nor have I heard anything other than one instance cited by a sports writer whose source was "anonymous players."  Similarly, I've heard nothing about solid evidence that has been procured which would damn Jacksonville or Buffalo.

The investigation of the Saints, on the other hand, produced documents and pre-game slides that included information about the bounty system.  It produced e-mails regarding bounty amounts.  The investigation resulted in coaches admitting that they previously lied, and it resulted in them acknowledging the extent of the bounty system.  The NFL didn't hand down its punishment to the Saints based upon a rumor from anonymous sources about one instance; this is much more detailed and verified than anything that any other investigation of any other team has revealed, at least from what I've read.

Let's face it:  the Saints got caught with the smoking gun.  If you can show me where an investigation of any other team has revealed as much as this investigation against the Saints has, then I will agree with you that other teams also need to be disciplined.  But if you want every other team to burn just because of one or two unverified rumors that no investigation has confirmed, then you're a hypocrite for getting wound up about the Cam Newton scandal.

While NFL staff has interviewed people in connection with public allegations of bounty programs at other clubs, no evidence was established showing that the programs at other clubs involved targeting opposing players or rewarding players for injuring an opponent. Commissioner (Roger) Goodell emphasized that if additional information is brought to his attention that discloses bounties offered for injuring specific opposing players, he will revisit the matter to consider additional discipline.

[JR4AU]

I'm well aware that we're past the point where everything I say will be rejected as barking lunacy, and won't be considered rationally for one second.

But I feel like wasting my proverbial breath.

So if everyone accepts that Gregg Williams was the mastermind, and that he did this everywhere else he's been, and there are even more blatant accounts of him doing this at other programs (http://espn.go.com/blog/nfceast/post/_/id/37375/what-gregg-williams-did-in-washington), and he is no longer associated with the New Orleans Saints, then how can you scorch the Earth in New Orleans, and do absolutely nothing to Jacksonville or Washington, or even Buffalo for that matter?

Until some other club has a disgruntled Shockey...er uh, player come out and snitch them out, NO will be the only one hit. 

Also, Payton, and Williams are sacrificial lambs, for the good of the league.  Goodell isn't going to be looking hard to gut half the league's staffs and rosters.  He's made a statement, and everybody else is expected to get the message. 

Blame the participants first, the snitch second, and Payton for not nipping it i the bud when warned, and lying when he knew there was an electronic paper trail.

[The Prowler]

I didn't want to ruin the fantasy.

He's 100% here in 2012, and I will be shocked if he isn't resigned very soon. And I've said that I acknowledge that the not being forthcoming about it is what did us in.

Still think the punishment is excessive. Still think people are latching on to the "carted off thing" and taking it out of context to create an outrage du jour.

Agree to disagree and moving on.

My skreets are telling me that the Saints aren't willing to do a longterm deal with Brees, in the neighborhood of $20 Million + per year.  Brees' agent is also Payton Manning's agent...and Brees deserves to make more money than the deal that Denver and Manning struck a few days ago.  He also isn't going to sign the "franchise player" papers.

[Townhallsavoy]

Until some other club has a disgruntled Shockey...er uh, player come out and snitch them out, NO will be the only one hit. 

Also, Payton, and Williams are sacrificial lambs, for the good of the league.  Goodell isn't going to be looking hard to gut half the league's staffs and rosters.  He's made a statement, and everybody else is expected to get the message. 

Blame the participants first, the snitch second, and Payton for not nipping it i the bud when warned, and lying when he knew there was an electronic paper trail.

^This^

Since I've been out of town, I'll make my "too late" comment just for kicks -

The Saints deserved this harsh punishment because the organization was in control of the illegal activity.  It wasn't isolated to one coach.  This isn't a college type recruiting scandal where one assistant coach is handing out bags of cash and the entire football program gets punished.  The general manager, head coach, defensive coordinator (who I think was also the assistant head coach), assistant coach, and players were all involved to a heavy extent.

You want to know how the Saints could have avoided this?  Fire Williams the second they found out about it.  Maybe not for encouraging injuring players but fire him for being stupid enough to leave a paper trail. 

I have no doubt this goes on everywhere, but think about it - these guys make enough money.  The sport is already extremely violent.  Personal fouls happen every game.  Every player is desperately trying to win their division so that they can compete for the Super Bowl.  Did they really need any extra incentive to take out the opposition's players?  Did Williams really need to offer money for that to happen?  Hell - it could have been as easy as Williams going up to one player and suggesting it. 

Williams - "Hey Player X that starts but only gets paid $700k/year.  We really need this win to make the playoffs and that Player Y over there is killing us.  Make sure he doesn't play another snap." 

I thought at first it was just Williams putting on this show.  But it wasn't.  Payton knew about it.  My intuition tells me he not only turned a deaf ear towards it; he encouraged it.  I'll never forget that personal foul call in the NFCCG when one of the Saints knocked out Brett Favre.  He slapped the guy on the rear and emphatically said, "Good!  Do it again!" 

This sucks, but as a Saints fan, I know that I would have expected the same kind of punishment on any other team that was guilty of this egregious offense. 

Now as for the hypocrisy of Goodell and the other issues in the league going unnoticed?  That's a different story.  But he got this one particular case right.

[JR4AU]

I have no doubt this goes on everywhere, but think about it - these guys make enough money.  The sport is already extremely violent.  Personal fouls happen every game.  Every player is desperately trying to win their division so that they can compete for the Super Bowl.  Did they really need any extra incentive to take out the opposition's players?  Did Williams really need to offer money for that to happen?  Hell - it could have been as easy as Williams going up to one player and suggesting it.

Williams - "Hey Player X that starts but only gets paid $700k/year.  We really need this win to make the playoffs and that Player Y over there is killing us.  Make sure he doesn't play another snap."

I'm not naive enough to think this never happens. I don't think it's a big part of the culture of the NFL.  I think most players want to play at a high level, and bring the hurt, but I think they also realize how fragile their own career is, and don't want to end or endanger another player's career.  Go watch LT's hit on Theisman that broke his leg, and LT's reaction on the field right after.   However, the bounty system makes it ripe for this type of thing to occur, and gives the perception that that is the intent of the bounty system.

Also, don't think some of these players don't "need the money".  Many of them are reckless with it, and have to take out loans in the off season when not getting their game checks.   These are the one's most likely to resort to illegal hits, or targeting knees to collect a bounty. 

[Kaos]

I'm well aware that we're past the point where everything I say will be rejected as barking lunacy, and won't be considered rationally for one second.

But I feel like wasting my proverbial breath.

So if everyone accepts that Gregg Williams was the mastermind, and that he did this everywhere else he's been, and there are even more blatant accounts of him doing this at other programs (http://espn.go.com/blog/nfceast/post/_/id/37375/what-gregg-williams-did-in-washington), and he is no longer associated with the New Orleans Saints, then how can you scorch the Earth in New Orleans, and do absolutely nothing to Jacksonville or Washington, or even Buffalo for that matter?

Yarp, blarp, darp.

Simple concepts.

1) This is nothing like the hysteria surrounding Cam and Auburn because New Orleans got caught.
2) This is nothing like the hysteria surrounding Auburn and Cam because it is true, it doesn't thrive only on Brooks and the league commissioner made a ruling. If the NCAA had ruled against Auburn because Auburn had done something with the knowledge of the coaches then you'd have a point.  Auburn didn't.  The Saints did.  They got caught.
3) What may be happening with other teams is irrelevant because New Orleans got caught.
4) The punishment is deserved because New Orleans got caught.
5) Getting caught is a big problem.  If Payton and the NO brass weren't complicit you wouldn't see the earth scorched.  They were, they got caught and the bomb is not as destructive as it should be.
6) This is worse than paying players to come to college.  It's worse than anything SMU did to get the death penalty. It's worse than all the allegations at Miami. It's worse than Albert Means because you're talking about getting caught attempting to destroy the career of other players. 
7) Don't even try the "they didn't need the money" angle.  Ever played softball?  I've seen grown men try to kill each other over a plastic trophy worth about $30.  A trophy they don't even get to keep. 
8) They got caught.
9) They got caught.
10) They got caught.

[AUChizad]

Yeah...

Someone's going to post this, so let me be the first.

I was seeing this touted as the "smoking gun" that was undeniable proof that the punishments were justified.



In all honesty, after watching 90% of the video, I was ready to get on here and say that I still didn't see how this was as big a deal as it was being made out to be. That a version of this goes on in every NFL locker room, and if you were shocked by it, it was probably because you've never spent time in one.

The last 30 seconds of the video is where I finally came around to at least seeing that Williams was definitely over the proverbial line.

He becomes human when we fuckin' take out that outside ACL. We need to decide on how many times we can beat Frank Gore's head. We need to decide how many times we can bullrush and we can fuckin' put Vernon Davis's ankles over the pile.

 

[War Eagle!!!]

Yeah...

Someone's going to post this, so let me be the first.

I was seeing this touted as the "smoking gun" that was undeniable proof that the punishments were justified.



In all honesty, after watching 90% of the video, I was ready to get on here and say that I still didn't see how this was as big a deal as it was being made out to be. That a version of this goes on in every NFL locker room, and if you were shocked by it, it was probably because you've never spent time in one.

The last 30 seconds of the video is where I finally came around to at least seeing that Williams was definitely over the proverbial line.

 

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