Agree/Disagree - Democracy needs external pressure to succeed.

[Townhallsavoy]

I'm hoping to pick up The Peloponnesian War by Thucydides sometime soon.  I've been told that it discusses why democratic nations need external pressure to be successful.  War, the "bad guy" the "bad religion" are all necessary components.

[Tarheel]

I'm hoping to pick up The Peloponnesian War by Thucydides sometime soon.  I've been told that it discusses why democratic nations need external pressure to be successful.  War, the "bad guy" the "bad religion" are all necessary components.

That should be an interesting read.

Fundamentally I disagree that we live in a democracy as such; however part of the problems that have plaguing this nation perhaps since Reconstruction are directly related to FedGov (elected officials, permanent bureaucrats, and appointed judges) seeing themselves as oligarchs who have some right to rule over the People from whom they actually derive their power.  They seem to forget this trivial, little fact all too often; even making rules and policies that are not in synch with the Constitution...hoping that we won't notice.  Hoping, perhaps that we'll follow along with them like the sheeple that they are creating in public schools (you're a teacher aren't you?; I mean no offense to you but you made a post recently about how kids and parents are lacking in critical thinking skills and historical knowledge.)

Anyway, in the great scheme of things I see external pressures often as an excuse for distraction first of all and secondly an excuse for enhancing the illusion of the necessity to be lead by some kind of oligarch.  I don't see it as a necessary component of success but it is helpful in uniting the nation for a common cause when that cause is just...or profitable.  Just my 2 cent word jumble...

You've been posting on some deep subjects here lately...making my brain hurt.

[Tarheel]

As a codicil, I read something interesting not too long ago that the ancient Greeks referred to individuals who recused themselves from politics and political activities as idiotes.

[Townhallsavoy]

That should be an interesting read.

Fundamentally I disagree that we live in a democracy as such; however part of the problems that have plaguing this nation perhaps since Reconstruction are directly related to FedGov (elected officials, permanent bureaucrats, and appointed judges) seeing themselves as oligarchs who have some right to rule over the People from whom they actually derive their power.  They seem to forget this trivial, little fact all too often; even making rules and policies that are not in synch with the Constitution...hoping that we won't notice.  Hoping, perhaps that we'll follow along with them like the sheeple that they are creating in public schools (you're a teacher aren't you?; I mean no offense to you but you made a post recently about how kids and parents are lacking in critical thinking skills and historical knowledge.)

Anyway, in the great scheme of things I see external pressures often as an excuse for distraction first of all and secondly an excuse for enhancing the illusion of the necessity to be lead by some kind of oligarch.  I don't see it as a necessary component of success but it is helpful in uniting the nation for a common cause when that cause is just...or profitable.  Just my 2 cent word jumble...

You've been posting on some deep subjects here lately...making my brain hurt.

I don't have a full understanding of the topic because it's relatively new to me; however, the idea could be traced back to the Revolutionary War with the lone exception being the Civil War. 

There's always been war or some form of conflict with an outside presence. 

Revoluationary War - Late 1700s
War of 1812
Indian conflicts (1820s and 1830s)
The Mexican War - 1840s
Post Civil War included numerous battles with Native Americans
The Spanish-American War - Late 1800s
Foreign Affairs (such as the Panama Canal) - Early 1900s
World War I - 1910s
World War II - 1940s
Korean War - 1950s
Cuba Missile Crisis - 1960s
Vietnam - 1960s and early 70s
Iranian Conflicts - Late 1970s/early 1980s
Iraq Part One - Late 1980s/Early 1990s
Bosnia/Kosovo - Mid 1990s
9/11, Afghanistan, and Iraq - 2000s

Not to mention, the grandaddy of them all - The Cold War - 1940s-Late 1980s

The constant implication that Islam is evil.  That Iran is dangerous.  That China has all our debt (not true by the way).  That immigrants are ruining our country.  That we must go to war with drugs. 

I'm not saying any of these are right or wrong, but they do/did exist. 

I think the reaction to 9/11 is a good example of external conflict promoting the health of a democratic nation.  Everyone and their mama came together that day and the subsequent days after.  Bush was a hero.  We were united with country music songs, powerful vigils, and an attitude that would take the world by storm. 

And the problem arises when we aren't united against something else.  We then turn our conquistador mentality to something more obvious - ourselves.  I'm sure there's some psychological component to this. 

[GH2001]

Well THS, half of the problem is that a true democracy will probably never succeed fully. Like Communism, it has too many flaws and gaps. And our founders knew that. That's why we were setup as a Constitutional Republic in our framework. A true democracy is majority rules - end of story. No checks and balances, no real representative power to the people. Over time our Republic has slowly eroded into more of a Democracy. Congressmen and the President do as they wish now, whether its the will of the people or not, which gets more into Totalitarianism.

[GarMan]

Well THS, half of the problem is that a true democracy will probably never succeed fully. Like Communism, it has too many flaws and gaps. And our founders knew that. That's why we were setup as a Constitutional Republic in our framework. A true democracy is majority rules - end of story. No checks and balances, no real representative power to the people. Over time our Republic has slowly eroded into more of a Democracy. Congressmen and the President do as they wish now, whether its the will of the people or not, which gets more into Totalitarianism.

And, Boom goes the dynamite! 

[Townhallsavoy]

Well THS, half of the problem is that a true democracy will probably never succeed fully. Like Communism, it has too many flaws and gaps. And our founders knew that. That's why we were setup as a Constitutional Republic in our framework. A true democracy is majority rules - end of story. No checks and balances, no real representative power to the people. Over time our Republic has slowly eroded into more of a Democracy. Congressmen and the President do as they wish now, whether its the will of the people or not, which gets more into Totalitarianism.

That seems a bit hyperbolic.  How close are we truly to having a government that is in total control? 

Would you say that a world war would help fix some of the issues in this country?

[Tarheel]

I don't have a full understanding of the topic because it's relatively new to me; however, the idea could be traced back to the Revolutionary War with the lone exception being the Civil War. 

There's always been war or some form of conflict with an outside presence. 

Revoluationary War - Late 1700s
War of 1812
Indian conflicts (1820s and 1830s)
The Mexican War - 1840s
Post Civil War included numerous battles with Native Americans
The Spanish-American War - Late 1800s
Foreign Affairs (such as the Panama Canal) - Early 1900s
World War I - 1910s
World War II - 1940s
Korean War - 1950s
Cuba Missile Crisis - 1960s
Vietnam - 1960s and early 70s
Iranian Conflicts - Late 1970s/early 1980s
Iraq Part One - Late 1980s/Early 1990s
Bosnia/Kosovo - Mid 1990s
9/11, Afghanistan, and Iraq - 2000s

Not to mention, the grandaddy of them all - The Cold War - 1940s-Late 1980s

The constant implication that Islam is evil.  That Iran is dangerous.  That China has all our debt (not true by the way).  That immigrants are ruining our country.  That we must go to war with drugs. 

I'm not saying any of these are right or wrong, but they do/did exist. 

I think the reaction to 9/11 is a good example of external conflict promoting the health of a democratic nation.  Everyone and their mama came together that day and the subsequent days after.  Bush was a hero.  We were united with country music songs, powerful vigils, and an attitude that would take the world by storm. 

And the problem arises when we aren't united against something else.  We then turn our conquistador mentality to something more obvious - ourselves.  I'm sure there's some psychological component to this.

Well, I see what you are implying but the Revolutionary War and the War of Northern Aggression would have to specifically be excluded from the hypothesis because they both essentially created the Republic and the Union.

Perhaps if the external pressures are limited in precise scope to existential threats then I might be in aggreance with the hypothesis.  Right, wrong, or indifferent some of the external pressures in your list would not fall in that category but many of them fall into the category of invented threats for political convenience (like Libya recently and Kosovo).  Some might argue that about the Cold War as well but I think that nuclear weapons made it an existential threat.  I was a young man at the time of Grenada but I recall some popular MSM sources reacting to it in such a way that it was going to escalate into WWIII; being part of the Cold War of course.

At the end of the day we don't need to be united in conflict or aggression.  Unity can be inspired by and created by good leaders who can present good ideas that inspire us to work together for a common (and profitable) cause which will be helpful for the nation at large.  One example that I give you is the space program.  It's been eviscerated now but I remember as a kid and as a young man being inspired by our nation working together in a huge effort to put men on the moon.  We as a nation are still reaping the benefits of the science and technology achievements along with the vast increase in our national knowledge base that came out of that original program back in the 60's.

Maybe you are right about being united against something but I think the unity for the purpose of conflict misses the mark of what this nation is all about.  This is probably more our fault too for electing self-entitled morons who have no other desire than to stay in power.

That seems a bit hyperbolic.  How close are we truly to having a government that is in total control? 

Would you say that a world war would help fix some of the issues in this country?

Not to be too blunt but it depends on how close you want that TSA agent to examine your crotch at the airport.

[GH2001]

That seems a bit hyperbolic.  How close are we truly to having a government that is in total control? 

Would you say that a world war would help fix some of the issues in this country?

Not hyperbolic at all.

I would say we are a lot closer than we ever need to be when I see some of things happening around us. One thing I mentioned was DC ignoring the will of the people. That's a big one. When a leader does what HE wants personally regardless of whats best for the country according to our framework and it's against the will of the people, you start getting into the territory of totalitarianism. Healthcare was a PRIME example of this. The administration bluntly stated that it needed to be passed regardless of whether 67% of the country did NOT want it. This gets into an ideology of gov't and its officials thinking it knows what's better for it's citizens than the citizen's themselves. This is NOT how we were designed to operate. This is exactly the kind of mentality and control that the settlers were trying to get away from in England. Its the kind of mentality that millions have immigrated away from in favor of the US.

The first 100-150 years of this country's existence operated strictly under the framework of the Constitutional Republic and yielded results that had never been seen before in the Earth's history in many aspects: quality of living, liberty, prosperity, innovation.  But slowly but surely, that same idealogy that the United States was the anti-thesis of, the same ideology that the US was built not to be - has creeped its way back into our Republic. We are now facing a lot of the consequences from many of the actions of the last 80-90 years and moreso the last 45 years. Things have hit the fan and blame has been passed around. There are those on the left and even socialism supporters who use the current turmoil as a "told you so" as to why Capitalism/Republicanism doesn't work. But the very thing they fail to mention is that we haven't operated as a true Republic since before 1913. In fact, the current turmoil or "chickens coming home to roost" has almost everything to do with us getting away from that. I give them credit for devising a sneaky plan to the naive though.

Turn the system upside down and when the shit hits the fan - blame it on the system in it's pure form, Capitalism. When indeed the exact opposite is true.

[Townhallsavoy]

But the very thing they fail to mention is that we haven't operated as a true Republic since before 1913.

World War I?  I'd like some more on this.  Just for reading purposes.

[GH2001]

World War I?  I'd like some more on this.  Just for reading purposes.

Two things in or near this year:

An unapportioned income tax was legalized
A Central Bank (Fed Reserve) was legalized

Both unconstitutional, both against the will of the people. But also Woodrow Wilson's general policy of Big Gov't and liberalism.

I recommend The Creature from Jekyl Island by G. Edward Griffin.

[Tarheel]

World War I?  I'd like some more on this.  Just for reading purposes.

Pedantic point of order but the United States did not officially enter WWI as a belligerent until April of 1917 after the publication of the Zimmermann Telegram and the sinking of a half dozen US flagged merchant ships, allegedly, by German U-boats.

[Snaggletiger]

Pedantic point of order but the United States did not officially enter WWI as a belligerent until April of 1917 after the publication of the Zimmermann Telegram and the sinking of a half dozen US flagged merchant ships, allegedly, by German U-boats.

I had a thread on this about a year ago where I had obtained an Army satchel with a bunch of letters and documents in it.  It was my great grandpappy's from WWI.  Everything is still in perfect shape.  It was hard to tell what he did until I showed it to a relative who is in the Army.  Apparently, he was a surgeon that went around through Europe by train on kind of a mobile hospital/surgical unit.

I had asked in the thread where a good place would be to donate it but I just can't part with it yet.  Too cool to pull that stuff out and read through it. 

[GH2001]

I had a thread on this about a year ago where I had obtained an Army satchel with a bunch of letters and documents in it.  It was my great grandpappy's from WWI.  Everything is still in perfect shape.  It was hard to tell what he did until I showed it to a relative who is in the Army.  Apparently, he was a surgeon that went around through Europe by train on kind of a mobile hospital/surgical unit.

I had asked in the thread where a good place would be to donate it but I just can't part with it yet.  Too cool to pull that stuff out and read through it.

Dude - your grandpaps was MASH before MASH was cool.

Alan Alda - who is that? We got Snags grandpaw bitches!

[Snaggletiger]

Dude - your grandpaps was MASH before MASH was cool.

Alan Alda - who is that? We got Snags grandpaw bitches!

My Grandpappy did Hot Lips Houlihan

[Tarheel]

I had a thread on this about a year ago where I had obtained an Army satchel with a bunch of letters and documents in it.  It was my great grandpappy's from WWI.  Everything is still in perfect shape.  It was hard to tell what he did until I showed it to a relative who is in the Army.  Apparently, he was a surgeon that went around through Europe by train on kind of a mobile hospital/surgical unit.

I had asked in the thread where a good place would be to donate it but I just can't part with it yet.  Too cool to pull that stuff out and read through it.

That's really cool, Snaggle.  I think I'd hang on to that if I was you; your kids and grandkids will probably appreciate it some day.  I don't know that there is an actual WWI museum (like the National WWII Museum in NOLA) where you could donate it.

[JR4AU]

Well THS, half of the problem is that a true democracy will probably never succeed fully. Like Communism, it has too many flaws and gaps. And our founders knew that. That's why we were setup as a Constitutional Republic in our framework. A true democracy is majority rules - end of story. No checks and balances, no real representative power to the people. Over time our Republic has slowly eroded into more of a Democracy. Congressmen and the President do as they wish now, whether its the will of the people or not, which gets more into Totalitarianism.

I would offer this: "The will of the people" has become about what special interests can scream the loudest, get the most face time, and get a media movement to support their cause, not necessarily what the majority or constituents want.   Fact is staunch conservatives, and radical left wingers are not the majority on either side.  The vast majority of Americans are moderate, and also stupid, and they go where the political winds take them.    It's how a guy like Obama gets elected by promising "change" but not telling you what it really is.   Also, Americans are forgetful.  The hot button topics like Abortion, and Guns are no longer big political hot buttons that candidates are stumping about.  They may mention it, but even the Dems have admitted guns are no longer a big part of their political agenda.   Gun law wars are now largely being being fought regarding city and state laws and restrictions, and pro gun is winning.