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"Who Dat" Bounty Games...

AUTiger1

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Re: "Who Dat" Bounty Games...
« Reply #520 on: December 12, 2012, 11:18:22 AM »
No one's making you read.

Most of you trolling to troll. If you want to continue making a retarded argument (RWS), I suggest you read what has been posted.

That's hurts man.
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GH2001

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Re: "Who Dat" Bounty Games...
« Reply #521 on: December 12, 2012, 11:20:56 AM »
None of this changes the fact that the Saints cheated.

And I would agree with this. My beef with Goodell (and I generally have liked him) is that he knee jerked on his reaction and punishment. Which turned out to be wrong. It's clear he was trying to send a message and CYA rather than get it right on the punishment meeting the crime. Yea they cheated, but Goodell did a bad job in reacting which this ruling shows.
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AUChizad

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Re: "Who Dat" Bounty Games...
« Reply #522 on: December 12, 2012, 11:21:40 AM »
And I would agree with this. My beef with Goodell (and I generally have liked him) is that he knee jerked on his reaction and punishment. Which turned out to be wrong. It's clear he was trying to send a message and CYA rather than get it right on the punishment meeting the crime. Yea they cheated, but Goodell did a bad job in reacting which this ruling shows.
Tell me how they cheated.
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GH2001

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Re: "Who Dat" Bounty Games...
« Reply #523 on: December 12, 2012, 11:23:07 AM »
Tell me how they cheated.

Dude, I'm defending them. Take the plea bargain.
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AUChizad

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Re: "Who Dat" Bounty Games...
« Reply #524 on: December 12, 2012, 11:35:17 AM »
Dude, I'm defending them. Take the plea bargain.
If you're going to say "Yeah, they cheated", but not elaborate, then you = the toothless bammer radio caller that proclaims "I know they cheated, Paul. They just got away with it."
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AWK

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Re: "Who Dat" Bounty Games...
« Reply #525 on: December 12, 2012, 12:23:34 PM »
I believe that Saintswin.com is unbiased, but that's just me.
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Redskins cornerback DeAngelo Hall said, "Guys don't mind hitting Michael Vick in the open field, but when you see Cam, you have to think about how you're going to tackle him. He's like a big tight end coming at you."

AUChizad

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Re: "Who Dat" Bounty Games...
« Reply #526 on: December 12, 2012, 12:28:07 PM »
I believe that Saintswin.com is unbiased, but that's just me.
nevertoyieldfoundation.com

Nobody's saying they aren't biased. But they're not just making shit up, either, unlike some other sources, namely the NFL & Goodell.
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CCTAU

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Re: "Who Dat" Bounty Games...
« Reply #527 on: December 12, 2012, 12:47:59 PM »
SAINTS SUCK. GO FALCONS!


That is all!
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Five statements of WISDOM
1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity, by legislating the wealth out of prosperity.
2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.
3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.
4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.
5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friends, is the beginning of the end of any nation.

GH2001

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Re: "Who Dat" Bounty Games...
« Reply #528 on: December 12, 2012, 12:53:38 PM »
If you're going to say "Yeah, they cheated", but not elaborate, then you = the toothless bammer radio caller that proclaims "I know they cheated, Paul. They just got away with it."

Ok I'll rephrase. I think they were involved in wrongdoing. With that said though, I don't think what Goodell did was correct and frankly it was harsh seeing as how he knew very little of what actually happened. Whether they cheated or not, he reacted too fast without due diligence. That was my point.
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CCTAU

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Re: "Who Dat" Bounty Games...
« Reply #529 on: December 12, 2012, 12:56:58 PM »
Ok I'll rephrase. I think they were involved in wrongdoing. With that said though, I don't think what Goodell did was correct and frankly it was harsh seeing as how he knew very little of what actually happened. Whether they cheated or not, he reacted too fast without due diligence. That was my point.

Screw that. They should have got the death penalty. Damn BAMMERS!
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Five statements of WISDOM
1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity, by legislating the wealth out of prosperity.
2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.
3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.
4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.
5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friends, is the beginning of the end of any nation.

AWK

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Re: "Who Dat" Bounty Games...
« Reply #530 on: December 12, 2012, 01:08:00 PM »
nevertoyieldfoundation.com

Nobody's saying they aren't biased. But they're not just making shit up, either, unlike some other sources, namely the NFL & Goodell.
Auburn = Saints = Cheaters?
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Redskins cornerback DeAngelo Hall said, "Guys don't mind hitting Michael Vick in the open field, but when you see Cam, you have to think about how you're going to tackle him. He's like a big tight end coming at you."

The Prowler

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Re: "Who Dat" Bounty Games...
« Reply #531 on: December 12, 2012, 08:45:27 PM »
Quote
DeMaurice Smith: NFL bounty program "never existed"

Move along, nothin to see here...never existed, all just a big misunderstanding.

Off Topic: The Saints have retro-actively awarded themselves 5 League Championships to go along with their 2009 Championship.
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djsimp

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Re: "Who Dat" Bounty Games...
« Reply #532 on: December 12, 2012, 08:55:13 PM »
Move along, nothin to see here...never existed, all just a big misunderstanding.

Off Topic: The Saints have retro-actively awarded themselves 5 League Championships to go along with their 2009 Championship.

Got 15?
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AUChizad

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Re: "Who Dat" Bounty Games...
« Reply #533 on: December 14, 2012, 08:06:22 AM »
The Toronto Star is biased, y'all.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/football/nfl/article/1301904--nfl-commissioner-roger-goodell-won-t-say-sorry-over-bounty-gate-cox?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Quote
NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell won't say sorry.

Damien Cox December 14, 2012

You think it’s tough being Gary Bettman?

As embattled as the NHL commissioner is, and as much heat as he’s getting from the players union and certain segments of fans over the current lockout, compared to Roger Goodell, it’s like a nice day in May for Bettman.

It’s pretty clear now that Goodell, without a great deal of conclusive evidence, tried and convicted the New Orleans Saints over “Bounty-gate” and ruined that team’s season.

So who do the Saints see about getting a refund on that? Can they get a recount on their 0-4 start?
Goodell won’t apologize. But if he did, where would he start?

After the 22-page reprimand he received from his predecessor Paul Tagliabue, Goodell’s position as the sheriff of this uber-violent league sits in tatters today, perhaps a little more noteworthy than usual in these parts with the NFL coming to town this weekend.

At this point, in fact, one wonders if Goodell doesn’t deserve to be fired for the manner in which he has bungled this entire episode, which is anything but over.

Over the course of Goodell’s tenure, the way in which he has handled a long series of controversial disciplinary cases involving both NFL coaches and players has largely defined his reign. Most notable were his handling of the Michael Vick case and “Spygate,” in which he punished the New England Patriots and coach Bill Belichick for videotaping the defensive signals of the New York Jets.

Nobody defended Vick. Everybody loved seeing the arrogant Pats slapped down. But it now looks as though those rulings were delivered by an executive who was just getting warmed up.

When the commissioner made his series of rulings earlier this year in Bounty-gate against the Saints, Goodell took a 13-3 team that had won the Super Bowl two years before that and neutered it for allegedly putting in place a bounty system for hits on opposing players.

He suspended head coach Sean Payton for the entire season, unprecedented in the league’s history. GM Mickey Loomis got eight games. Assistant coach Joe Vitt received a six-game suspension. Defensive co-ordinator Gregg Williams, perhaps the mastermind of the system, was suspended indefinitely last winter.

The team was fined $500,000 and docked two second round picks.

Then came the penalties for four players. Linebacker Jonathan Vilma was suspended for the entire season. Anthony Hargrove got eight games, Will Smith got four and Scott Fujita three games. The cloud of suspicion and infamy, meanwhile, fell over the whole squad.

Those bans were handed down May 2. Then, the Saints started fighting back, and Goodell has been backpedalling ever since.

Based on a review of the case by Tagliabue handed down this week, Goodell far over-stepped his bounds when he suspended the players. Fujita, in particular, was utterly blameless. Tagliabue vacated all the suspensions, nice but not so helpful today to the 5-8 Saints.

The problem, as Tagliabue highlights, is that while all kinds of nasty things were said, there’s not an ounce of proof that the Saints actually did anything illegal.

“If the League wishes to suspend a player for pre-game talk including ‘offers’ to incentivize misconduct, it must start by imposing enhanced discipline for illegal hits that involve the kind of player misconduct that it desires to interdict,” wrote Tagliabue.

Interestingly, Tagliabue didn’t overturn the suspensions to Payton and Williams — Loomis and Vitt are already back — although talks have already started on whether Payton will be reinstated before the scheduled end of his suspension.

Vilma, meanwhile, is suing for defamation of character.

“This is my career. There are no do-overs in football,” Vilma said. “This is my legacy . . . If I were to stop now, the only thing people are going to remember is the bounty.”

Saints quarterback Drew Brees, one of the league’s leading ambassadors, said Goodell has “little or no credibility” with NFL players right now.

This has been a massive screwup from beginning to end, or at least a miscarriage of justice, and it destroyed a team’s season. Other NFL owners could easily look around and wonder if the same could have happened to their team if they were to run afoul of this ready-fire-aim commissioner.

Why did Goodell go so far? Why did he decide he had to make history? It was as though in his zeal to be the health-and-safety commish he decided to make the Saints culpable for every bad hit, every vicious play and every hit-to-hurt moment in the league’s history.

If a commissioner was ever going to be dismissed for something other than looting the treasury, wouldn’t this be it? Unnecessarily trashing a team’s season would seem to go on the unforgivable list.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2012, 09:31:58 AM by AUChizad »
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Vandy Vol

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Re: "Who Dat" Bounty Games...
« Reply #534 on: December 14, 2012, 11:41:57 AM »
In Tagliabue's own words, provided by ESPN:

Quote from: Here Comes Honey Tagliabooboo
Goodell's suspensions of four players, Tagliabue concluded, were "selective, ad hoc, or inconsistent."  Those Tagliabue adjectives translate into the following: Tagliabue thinks Goodell punished some players and not others, that he made up new punishments as he went along, and that he was tougher on some players than he was on other players.

. . .

Goodell should have engaged in what Tagliabue calls a "discipline-free transition year" as a way to prepare the players for severe punishments that would end bounties.

. . .

In addition to his theories on the nature of discipline, Tagliabue placed the blame for the Saints bounty program on the coaching staff and suggested that the players "may not have had much choice but to 'go along,' [and] to comply with coaching demands or directions that they may question or resent."

. . .

Tagliabue was unrelenting in his criticism of suspended head coach Sean Payton and indefinitely suspended former defensive coordinator Gregg Williams, even though their suspensions were not part of the appeal that he was considering. He cited a coaches' PowerPoint presentation after the Saints' victory over the Cardinals in the 2009 playoffs. One slide showed Kurt Warner on the turf with the caption: "SO WE WILL JUST DESTROY EACH QUARTERBACK LEAVING EACH TEAM WITHOUT A FIELD GENERAL! ONE DOWN TWO QBs TO GO."

. . .

Tagliabue was also incensed with the "massive efforts" of Saints coaches "to obstruct the league's investigation," their "destroying of documents," and their attempts to have "coaches, players, and other representatives lie to League investigators and otherwise be uncooperative."

Both former defensive assistant Mike Cerullo and Williams testified before Tagliabue that they destroyed a series of PowerPoint slides that showed payouts to players and destroyed other evidence. It was part of a "conscious decision to deny, deny, deny," according to Tagliabue.

Tagliabue, in his own words, did not exonerate the Saints as an entity.  Rather, he focused on the fact that he felt players should not be punished for what the coaches have instituted...because the players are clearly mindless drones and/or children who have no free will or ability to blow the whistle on what they should reasonably identify as improper conduct.

In summation, the Saints are still cheaters, despite what a bunch of Canucks have to say about American football.  They say that Tagliabue "interestingly" didn't overturn the suspensions of the coaches, yet Tagliabue's specific comments explain why:  He felt there was a bounty program at the Saints, and he felt that the punishment should have fallen on the coaches, not the players.  He felt that the bounty program should have been addressed, but that it should have been addressed by means of a "discipline-free transition year."

In no way does Tagliabue's commentary show that the Saints did nothing wrong.  Any attempt to classify his comments as such is blatantly misleading.
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Vandy Vol

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Re: "Who Dat" Bounty Games...
« Reply #535 on: December 14, 2012, 12:00:08 PM »
And just in case ESPN is suddenly going to be blasted as a biased/unreliable source even though it was previously used in an attempt to show the Saints' innocence, the following link is to Tagliabue's 22 page decision:

http://espn.go.com/photo/preview/121211/espn_bountyruling.pdf

Here are just a few more quotes for you to consider if you really want to maintain that the Saints as an entity did nothing wrong:

Quote from: Here Comes Honey Tagliabooboo
I affirm Commissioner Goodell’s factual findings as to the four players. I conclude that Hargrove, Smith and Vilma - - but not Fujita - - engaged in “conduct detrimental to the integrity of, and public confidence in, the game of professional football.”

. . .

Although I vacate all suspensions, I fully considered but ultimately rejected reducing the suspensions to fines of varying degrees for Hargrove, Smith and Vilma. My affirmation of Commissioner Goodell’s findings could certainly justify the issuance of fines. However, as explained in my discussion below, this entire case has been contaminated by the coaches and others in the Saints’ organization. Moreover, the League has not previously suspended or fined players for some of the activities in which these players participated and has in the recent past imposed only minimal fines on NFL Clubs - - not players - - of a mere $25,000 or less.

. . .

To be clear: this case should not be considered a precedent for whether similar behavior in the future merits player suspensions or fines; rather, I have decided not to issue fines this time for the reasons stated in this decision and the sake of the best interests of all involved in professional football.

. . .

Equally, in vacating the players’ suspensions I do not in any degree condone their behavior. I do not approve any of the misconduct in which Commissioner Goodell found the players to have engaged, though I do not find Fujita’s conduct equivalent to the other players. But each player made choices that do not reflect favorably on him. Moreover, there is evidence in the record that suggests that Commissioner Goodell could have disciplined a greater number of Saints’ players for the events that occurred here. This sad chapter in the otherwise praiseworthy history of the New Orleans Saints casts no executive, coach or player in a favorable light.
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Vandy Vol

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Re: "Who Dat" Bounty Games...
« Reply #536 on: December 14, 2012, 12:04:23 PM »
Also:

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AUChizad

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Re: "Who Dat" Bounty Games...
« Reply #537 on: December 14, 2012, 12:20:55 PM »
In Tagliabue's own words, provided by ESPN:

Tagliabue, in his own words, did not exonerate the Saints as an entity.  Rather, he focused on the fact that he felt players should not be punished for what the coaches have instituted...because the players are clearly mindless drones and/or children who have no free will or ability to blow the whistle on what they should reasonably identify as improper conduct.

In summation, the Saints are still cheaters, despite what a bunch of Canucks have to say about American football.  They say that Tagliabue "interestingly" didn't overturn the suspensions of the coaches, yet Tagliabue's specific comments explain why:  He felt there was a bounty program at the Saints, and he felt that the punishment should have fallen on the coaches, not the players.  He felt that the bounty program should have been addressed, but that it should have been addressed by means of a "discipline-free transition year."

In no way does Tagliabue's commentary show that the Saints did nothing wrong.  Any attempt to classify his comments as such is blatantly misleading.

First of all, Tagliabue is counsel to the law firm representing Commissioner Goodell in Vilma's defamation lawsuit, and is also representing the NFL in Jonathan's challenge to the entire process in this matter.

That's why Goodell hand-picked him as the "third party" in the first place, for this ruse of impartiality after essentially being forced into it.

That's why it's huge that despite this, even he, with his reputation on the line, had to say that Goodell went way over the line. But more importantly, that's why he has to continue with the "I'm not saying they didn't do it, but..." routine. He is protecting his client from further litigation. There is no other possible way that a rational person can justify those statements lining up with that ruling, despite your efforts.

No evidence of anything besides some tough talk from one coach in one game. Far from the three year institutionalized program designed to injure players. Who were the players actually injured by the players in question? None. Injuries happen often in the NFL. They happen far less often against the Saints than average. Almost least often than any team in the NFL.

From the "biased" L.A. Times back in July.
Quote
If the Saints tended to injure more players, then teams that played them would tend to list more injuries the following week. To test whether the Saints injured more players than a typical team, one need only compare the number of players added to injury reports after a Saints game to the league-wide average.

Did the New Orleans Saints injure more players?

The data-driven answer is a resounding "no." The Saints appear to have injured far fewer players over the 2009, 2010 and 2011 seasons. The numbers are striking. From 2009 to 2011, the Saints injured, on average, 3.2 opposing players each game. The rest of the teams in the league caused, on average, 3.8 injuries per game. This difference is highly statistically significant, or in other words, it would hold up in a court of law or a fancy academic journal. In each year of the bounty program, the Saints injured fewer players than the average for the league. In 2009, the Saints injured 2.8 players a game, and other teams injured on average 3.8. In 2010, it was 3.5 and 3.6, and in 2011 it was 3.3 and 3.8.

The Saints' behavior on the field was certainly aberrant, but positively so. Only one other team, the San Diego Chargers, injured fewer opponents per game over this entire time frame (3.1 injuries). Of the 32 teams, the Saints injured the third fewest in the 2009 season, the 15th fewest in 2010 and the third fewest in 2011. Might this record be linked to the Saints' being too weak or cowardly to respond to the bounties? Certainly not. Lily-livered players don't win Super Bowls.

However, the bounty system was run by the defense. Perhaps the offense was unusually kind to its opponents, offsetting the statistical misbehavior of the defense. That too is easily disproved with the data. Even if one focuses only on injuries to opposing offensive players, the Saints don't stand out as particularly vicious.

In 2009, the Saints injured far fewer offensive players than did other teams, at 0.9 per game as opposed to an average of 1.9 for other teams. But in 2010 and 2011, the Saints were statistically average, injuring slightly more offensive players in these seasons but no more than chance might allow. Over the three years, the Saints injured fewer offensive players than average.

The NFL's case against the players should require documentation that the Saints injured significantly more players than average. They did not.

Again, as is clear to anyone without an agenda, the NFL fucked up. They had an agenda and wanted to destroy the Saints' 2012 season, and succeeded. They did not, however, expect to be forced to own up to their spurious accusations. Once they were, the mountain of evidence and "200 page document" became hearsay and some tough locker room talk from the former assistant coach that is being deconstructed into literal harmful threats by pencil-necks that have obviously never spent a second listening to a defensive coach in a locker room in their lives. That in addition to an actual pay for performance read: not pay for intentional injury, by the players, which is at best the jay-walking of professional sports. It happens at every level of every professional sport in existence, and is never thought twice about. Nor has it ever been the focal point of the public's outrage, or the slander campaign by Goodell.

You're reaching, and you're falling on your face.
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AUChizad

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Re: "Who Dat" Bounty Games...
« Reply #538 on: December 14, 2012, 12:31:01 PM »
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/vilma-urges-rejection-goodell-motion-154427918--nfl.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
Quote
Vilma urges rejection of Goodell motion to dismiss
By BRETT MARTEL (AP Sports Writer)

NEW ORLEANS (AP) -- Jon Vilma urged a federal judge Friday to reject NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell's motion to dismiss the defamation lawsuit filed against him by the Saints linebacker.

Vilma's request to U.S. District Judge Ginger Berrigan argues Goodell acted with ''reckless disregard for the truth'' when basing initial allegations about Vilma upon one fired Saints assistant, Mike Cerullo, whose testimony has been inconsistent and challenged by other witnesses in the NFL's bounty probe of the Saints.

The motion centers on Goodell's public comments that Vilma held up $10,000 cash in a team meeting in 2010, offering it to anyone who knocked Arizona quarterback Kurt Warner out of a playoff game.

During recent NFL appeal hearings in the bounty case, former Saints defensive coordinator Gregg Williams testified he never saw any money.

''Williams has always told Goodell, and continues to state, that there was never any cash put up for a bounty on any player. It was 'just talk.''' Vilma's motion reads. ''Nonetheless, Goodell irresponsibly chose to contend that Vilma walked around with $10,000 before the Cardinals game.''

Vilma's season-long suspension and with various shorter bans for three other players were thrown out Tuesday by former Commissioner Paul Tagliabue, who Goodell had appointed to oversee the appeals of player punishment.

After Tagliabue's decision, the NFL Players Association dropped claims in federal court on behalf of Saints defensive end Will Smith and two former Saints: Cleveland linebacker Scott Fujita and free agent defensive lineman Anthony Hargrove. Vilma dropped his claims against the league concerning the disciplinary process, but moved forward with his defamation case against the commissioner, asking Berrigan to allow discovery, which consists of the collection of evidence and deposing of witnesses. Berrigan has so far delayed discovery while the Goodell's motion to dismiss the case is pending.

In their effort to highlight how unreliable Cerullo was, Vilma's attorneys, Peter Ginsberg and Duke Williams, cite hearing testimony from Saints assistant head coach Joe Vitt, who said Payton once arranged for police protection at his former suburban family home while he was away at league meetings because the head coach feared Cerullo was emotionally unstable and might harm his family.

While the lawsuit does not quote the testimony from the closed-door hearing directly, it appears in transcripts obtained by The Associated Press.

''An email was sent to the League about Mike Cerullo long before these (bounty) charges were brought up on our football team saying that Mike Cerullo was crazy, that Sean Payton had to have a police escort or, excuse me, police protection at his house because he was going to the owners' meeting, and he was worried about his family with Cerullo,'' Vitt testified. ''This is the kind of guy we're dealing with. Allright?''

Vilma's motion also notes that the NFL subsequently dropped Goodell's initial allegation about Vilma physically holding up money in the meeting before the Arizona game.

''There can no longer be any doubt that Goodell acted with malice ... in making this quasi-criminal accusation against Vilma,'' the motion said.

The NFL continues to allege that Vilma offered a $10,000 to anyone who knocked then-Minnesota quarterback Brett Favre out of the 2010 NFC title game, which followed the Arizona game. Williams testified that he recalled such an offer for that game, but never saw any money change hands and suggested the offer represented nothing more than tough talk in an emotional meeting that he allowed to get out of hand.
Cerullo was the "credible witness" making the accusations to Goodell.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2012, 12:35:57 PM by AUChizad »
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AUChizad

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Re: "Who Dat" Bounty Games...
« Reply #539 on: December 14, 2012, 12:34:33 PM »
Full PDF of Vilma's Legal Brief:

Which was linked here, but you have to be a member to view it.
http://saintsreport.com/forums/4816833-post14.html

Selected quotes I've gathered from Twitter from it.

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"Cerullo also manufactured a spreadsheet of 'bounties' that even the NFL could not believe ..."
Quote
"In total, the spreadsheet contended that the Saints defensive team and staff pledged an improbable $235,500 during the playoffs ..."
Quote
"Cerullo now admits he has no explanation for the outrageous amounts shown on his spreadsheet."
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