"Who Dat" Bounty Games...

[GH2001]

I don't usually agree with goat fuckers.  But when I do?  The New Orleans Bammers are GUILTY.

     

[RWS]

Cause I'm the only one posting in it.

Quit making asinine unfounded accusations and I'll quit shooting holes in your silly arguments.

You're shooting blanks, and you can't even realize it. To reiterate my point from a few pages back:

If Goodell completely fabricated these transcribed documents, such as the ledger, why didn't he make it a complete and total slam dunk? Something that there would be no possibility of arguing? Something totally ironclad. If he were completely making the whole thing up, why wouldn't he make it say "Take QB out of game" or "Hurt QB to where he can't return", or something like that? Why wouldn't he fabricate document after document after document after document of complete, total, ironclad proof. Why wouldn't he word something like the ledger to where there could be absolutely no wiggle room, or room for interpretation? Are you going to tell me that he's lying, but only lying a little? It's a stupid argument and you know it.

And as far as the argument that Goodell is only doing this to soften the blow of civil liability from these guys committing suicide, that argument fails as well. If anything, if he were trying to soften the blow, he would cover this shit up to where it never sees the light of day. Instead, this only gives those civil suits more ammunition. He's making the case for them. He's handing it to them on a silver platter. Pouring gas on the fire. Again, there is no reason for the NFL to continue with this if it is completely false. At some point, somebody has to end it. Especially if it is going on everywhere as you say it is. It just so happens that the Saints lied the first time around, and now the NFL has some pretty good proof. Goodell apparently has the nuts to be the bad guy and do something about it.

[Token]

I fully expected to open this thread and see the last 10 pages veering off into movieland quotes.  I'm shocked this is 28 pages deep and still on topic.

[Godfather]

I fully expected to open this thread and see the last 10 pages veering off into movieland quotes.  I'm shocked this is 28 pages deep and still on topic.

Why do you think I haven't participated...it's so

[AUChizad]

Allow CBS Sports to shoot "blanks" right the fuck through this argument as well.

You don't want to acknowledge Williams' apology, and his express statement that he was putting players' safety in danger with his system.  You also ignore Williams' admission that Vitt told Hargrove to lie about a bounty system, and instead choose to believe Vitt's denial.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/eye-on-football/19424885/drew-brees-says-nfl-holding-punishment-over-heads-of-silent-coaches

Drew Brees says NFL holding punishment over heads of silent coaches

By Josh Katzowitz | NFL Blogger
11:53 AM ET June 26, 2012

Brees has a pretty good idea why Payton has remained silent regarding the bounty program. (US Presswire)

Since the NFL announced the punishments for the Saints bounty program, you've heard most of the players affected speak loudly about how the lack of justice has been unfair. Jonathan Vilma, suspended a year, has been at the forefront of the protests while Anthony Hargrove (eight games), Will Smith (four games) and Scott Fujita (three games) have repeatedly expressed their disappointment in the NFL's methods.

But you haven't heard much from the coaches who have been affected, namely Sean Payton, Gregg Williams and Joe Vitt (though Vitt has made more noise than the other two). And Saints quarterback Drew Brees has a pretty good idea why.

"I have pretty good knowledge and feel like I've been informed that a lot of those coaches feel like there are further sanctions that are being held over their heads if they don't quote-unquote cooperate with the investigation," Brees said Tuesday on Dan Patrick's radio show. "Even though punishment has already been levied on the coaches and already been determined ... I think they feel if they speak out on behalf of the players, that's being held over their head."

That theory certainly isn't far-fetched. There have been rumblings that Williams -- suspended indefinitely -- was eager to express remorse over the bounty program, so, in the future, Goodell would be more likely to reinstate him. It also makes sense for Payton to stay quiet, assuming he wants to return in 2013.

And we've seen in the past that, if you do everything the commissioner asks of you (like, for instance, Ben Roethlisberger), Goodell is more likely to be lenient. Which, in Brees' mind, hasn't been Goodell's method thus far with the Saints.

"The facts that have been presented so far," Brees said, "do not match the punishment that has been levied."

Whether they agree, it's not likely you'll find Williams or Payton weighing in on this matter any time soon.

[RWS]

Allow CBS Sports to shoot "blanks" right the fuck through this argument as well.


http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/eye-on-football/19424885/drew-brees-says-nfl-holding-punishment-over-heads-of-silent-coaches

Are you shitting me? It's no different than any other enforcement agency. Whether it is the NFL, NCAA, law enforcement, etc. It's something the Saints haven't understood since they lied about the bounty program years ago. If you lie and muddy the waters, and you get caught, you're going to be buried. If you cooperate, thins will go a little easier on you. The NCAA even has it in their bylaws that if you are purposely uncooperative, they're going to fuck you up. I mean, that's in writing. I don't see where it would be ridiculous for the NFL to take a similar stance.

There have been rumblings that Williams -- suspended indefinitely -- was eager to express remorse over the bounty program, so, in the future, Goodell would be more likely to reinstate him. It also makes sense for Payton to stay quiet, assuming he wants to return in 2013.

Well, no shit they were eager. Because they knew damn good and well that there was a bounty system in place, and since the NFL now knew about it anyway, it was in their best interest to cooperate. Some of the others simply hedged their bets and hoped that this investigation would never get off of the ground, and there would really be no penalties. They lost the bet.

[Vandy Vol]

The title of the cited article began with "Drew Brees says..."



I stopped reading there.

[AUChizad]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/26/league-reiterates-belief-that-bounty-evidence-is-overwhelming/

League reiterates belief that bounty evidence is “overwhelming”
Posted by Mike Florio on June 26, 2012, 5:02 PM EDT
Jeff Pash, Greg Aiello AP

As Commissioner Roger Goodell continues to deliberate the final rulings in the bounty suspension appeals, the league over which he presides continues to declare the players’ guilt.

NFL spokesman Greg Aiello said Tuesday, via the Associated Press, that the evidence is “overwhelming.”

“The investigation was thorough and includes statements from multiple sources with firsthand knowledge about the details of the program, corroborating documentation and other evidence,” Aiello said.  “The enforcement of the bounty rule is important to protect players that are put at risk by this kind of scheme.”

Aiello’s comments come on the same day that Saints quarterback Drew Brees is questioning via an all-day media blitz the quality of the league’s case, and four days after NFL general counsel Jeff Pash touted the “mosaic” of evidence that was presented during the June 18 appeal hearings.

“Certainly, Drew Brees would not want to be the target in a bounty scheme and that is why we must eliminate bounties from football,” Aiello said.

Given the league’s views, the appeals should have been denied by now.  As Saints linebacker Jonathan Vilma said Monday, “What’s this guy waiting on?  Make your ruling so we can get on with phase 2 already.”

Also, the dueling soundbites from the league and Brees further illustrate that, ultimately, the bounty case has become an exercise in semantics.  No players were paid to injure other players.  Instead, the Saints created a system for financially rewarding players who in the normal course of delivering big, clean, legal hits rendered an opponent unable to play in all or part of the remainder of the game.  Though that’s one of the realities of a game in which success is premised partially on attrition, the league believes that creating that kind of incentive could lead to deliberate attempts to injure, whether through legal hits or through illegal hits.

The players believe the NFL has tried to suggest that the Saints were doing something far more sinister than the jobs they’re already paid to do (i.e., hit the other guy as hard as you can, cleanly and legally).  The NFL believes that, regardless of the language used to describe it, the concept of offering players money for rendering opponents unable to continue to play is inherently sinister, and thus unacceptable.

Regardless of how it all plays out, Aiello’s comments make clear that there’s no reason to further delay the rulings on the appeals.  Phase One clearly is over; it’s time to get on with Phase Two.

[AUChizad]

The title of the cited article began with "Drew Brees says..."



I stopped reading there.

If it started with "Vandy Vol says...", certainly it would have had more relevance and would have included your insight to the inner workings of the program and NFL. What are the coaches telling you?

Funny how people in the "justice" business only want to hear from the accusers.

[Vandy Vol]

If it started with "Vandy Vol says...", certainly it would have had more relevance and would have included your insight to the inner workings of the program and NFL.

Vandy Vol ≠ Saints player.

A Saints player is more likely to say, "No, this didn't happen."

Aside from that, it has nothing to do with who says it.  It has everything to do with the fact that if all they are doing is saying it, and not submitting evidence of it, then why is their word worth more than Williams, a guy who stated that Hargrove was told to lie about the existence of a bounty system and that the system he (Williams) put in place at the Saints endangered the safety of players?

What are the coaches telling you?

They're not telling me anything.  Williams' and Hargrove's statements are signed and nothing has been refuted about them, other than the fact that the NFL misquoted Hargrove's statement in the media.  But the actual wording of both make a strong showing that there was a bounty (pay for injury hits) system in play.

The language used in the slides regarding "bounty" and monetary payments?  Not refuted; only a lame excuse given regarding the Saints' hard-on for Dog the Bounty Hunter.

No disputes that "cart-off" was a term used in the locker room or in the course of a bounty system; only a lame excuse regarding the non-obvious meaning of the term.

If Brees says it, it's the gospel.  If Williams says it, it's fabricated.  No prejudice there...   

[djsimp]

Why do you think I haven't participated...it's so

Seriously. Besides the couple post about hot sauce, this thread is so not 

[RWS]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/26/league-reiterates-belief-that-bounty-evidence-is-overwhelming/

Nobody has offered a shred of evidence to refute it, either. And when you consider the entire body of evidence, it makes sense that there was a bounty system in place. Jesus, they even use the word "bounty", refer to collecting bounty money, and have a picture of Dog the Bounty Hunter on one slide. They have a ledger from at least one game. They use terms "cart-off" and "QB out" in some documents with what the payout will be. And before you go apeshit, just because nobody was carted off the field or the QB wasn't injured, that doesn't mean that the system didn't exist. When you go down that road, it's like saying that when you go to the casino you aren't gambling if you lose money. It's like saying conspiring to murder somebody is OK because they weren't actually killed.

[Townhallsavoy]

Keep it going, Chad.  These people are probably Falcons fans.  Or worse - they "don't like the NFL cause them guys are only doing it for the money." 

[The Six]

Nobody has offered a shred of evidence to refute it, either. And when you consider the entire body of evidence, it makes sense that there was a bounty system in place. Jesus, they even use the word "bounty", refer to collecting bounty money, and have a picture of Dog the Bounty Hunter on one slide. They have a ledger from at least one game. They use terms "cart-off" and "QB out" in some documents with what the payout will be. And before you go apeshoot, just because nobody was carted off the field or the QB wasn't injured, that doesn't mean that the system didn't exist. When you go down that road, it's like saying that when you go to the casino you aren't gambling if you lose money. It's like saying conspiring to murder somebody is OK because they weren't actually killed.

You could change a few terms around and that reads like the Updyke case...just saying

[Saniflush]

The title of the cited article began with "Drew Brees says..."



I stopped reading there.

Every time I hear his name I think about that big watermark on his face. 

[GH2001]

Keep it going, Chad.  These people are probably Falcons fans.  Or worse - they "don't like the NFL cause them guys are only doing it for the money."

Living only 90 mins from the Georgia Dome, they have always been the team I loathed the most. Because of this thread, they are getting seriously challenged by another team.

[GH2001]

I fully expected to open this thread and see the last 10 pages veering off into movieland quotes.  I'm shocked this is 28 pages deep and still on topic.

I tried to veer it off into Hot Sauce land but Bubbles the Monkey wanted to get back in the hamster wheel and entertain us some more.

[Godfather]

Every time I hear his name I think about that big watermark on his face.

Kuato lives!

[The Prowler]

I tried to veer it off into Hot Sauce land but Bubbles the Monkey wanted to get back in the hamster wheel and entertain us some more.

Me too, thought it was successful there for a little bit, then the pillow biting conversations started back up.

[AUChizad]

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8255103/a-federal-judge-declines-make-ruling-bounty-case-involving-jonathan-vilma

Judge does not rule in Saints LB Vilma lawsuit

Published: Friday, August 10, 2012

By the Associated Press

NEW ORLEANS (AP) — A federal judge questioned the fairness of the NFL's bounty investigation of the Saints, then held off on making any rulings while urging all sides to settle the matter on their own.

U.S. District Judge Ginger Berrigan also said the season-long suspension of Saints linebacker Jonathan Vilma was excessive and that she would be inclined to rule in his favor if she were certain she had jurisdiction to do so.

NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell has justified his suspension of Vilma by describing him as one of the ringleaders of a program that offered Saints defenders improper cash bonuses for injuring opponents.

The judge could potentially rule at any time on Vilma's request to be allowed to temporarily return to the Saints while the case proceeds, but during Friday's hearing, Berrigan urged all parties to come to an agreement rather than wait for the court to make a decision.

"I was surprised by her candor," said Gabe Feldman, a sports law professor at Tulane University who sat in on the hearing.

Feldman said the judge clearly believed the NFL was "in the wrong."

"The big issue is whether she has the power to do anything," Feldman said.

When Vilma left the courthouse, he was greeted by a handful of Saints fans wearing black and gold jerseys and quarterback Drew Brees, who gave his teammate a hug and pat on the back. Brees had just flown in from Foxborough, Mass., after last night's preseason game against the New England Patriots but he said he didn't want to miss the opportunity to "support Jonathan Vilma."

"It really means a lot," Vilma told his teammate as the two shook hands.

Vilma said he thought Friday's hearing went as well as could be expected and would not comment on whether he was in settlement negotiations with the NFL.

"I didn't come with any expectations," he said. "I thought today went as smoothly as it could. That's all I can ask for."

Vilma, several teammates and Saints assistant head coach Joe Vitt have testified that Vilma never paid or accepted money for injuring another player.

Vilma was one of four current or former players who have been suspended in connection with the league's bounty probe of the Saints. Teammate Will Smith, a defensive end, got four games, while defensive lineman Anthony Hargrove, now with Green Bay, was docked eight games. Linebacker Scott Fujita, now with Cleveland, was suspended for three games.

Smith, Hargrove and Fujita are being represented by the NFL Players Association, which also has filed suit in federal court in New Orleans seeking to have the suspensions overturned.

The NFL has urged Berrigan to dismiss the case, saying it would set a precedent that would clog the courts with frivolous lawsuits by players refusing to accept the disciplinary process to which their union agreed in the league's collective bargaining agreement.

Attorneys for Vilma and the NFLPA, however, have sought to persuade Berrigan that this is a somewhat unique case in which the commissioner overstepped his authority, giving her the power to protect the players' fundamental due process rights.

"You are not a potted plant, an innocent bystander helpless to right this wrong," NFLPA attorney Jeffrey Kessler told the judge.

Vilma's attorneys have argued that Goodell made biased public statements about the linebacker's involvement in the bounty scandal well before the process of player discipline began, making it impossible for the commissioner to be an impartial arbitrator as called for in both the NFL's collective bargaining agreement and federal labor law.

Vilma also is suing Goodell individually for defamation.

The players union also is arguing that Goodell did not have jurisdiction to appoint himself the arbitrator in the bounty matter because the accusations included on-the-field activity that, under the league's labor deal, is supposed to involve an arbitrator other than the commissioner.

The union further stressed that the CBA does not allow suspensions as punishment for pay-for-performance pools for big plays, the only improper activity to which current or former members of the Saints have admitted publicly or under oath. Berrigan took note of that argument, saying it was news to her

Both Vilma and the union have argued that the NFL has failed to turn over all of the evidence required in the matter, noting that the league has disclosed only about 200 pages of the nearly 50,000 pages of documents it claimed to have compiled in the bounty investigation.

While the NFL stands by its findings, league attorneys have not challenged testimony by Vilma and other witnesses in federal court who have denied the existence of pay-to-injure program. Rather, they have treated that testimony as if it were irrelevant, and have cited case law backing their argument that federal courts do not have jurisdiction to interfere in a process that was collectively bargained. NFL attorneys have noted that multiple system arbitrators have already agreed that Goodell has followed the very policies for imposing discipline to which players agreed in the league's labor agreement.

Berrigan, however, has allowed the case to continue and asked for more legal briefs since a July 26 hearing in which she noted she has some concerns about whether Goodell really did follow proper procedures.