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Why Are Obama's Critics So Dumb?

GarMan

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Re: Why Are Obama's Critics So Dumb?
« Reply #40 on: January 25, 2012, 07:18:21 PM »
Charts.  How them shits work?

DISCLAIMER:  The charts posted above aren't meant to prove or disprove any particular point.  In fact, you'll notice that some of them favor Obama, while others don't.  They are simply meant to show that charts will differ based upon a variety of factors, including how data is grouped, who specific data is attributed to, where the data was obtained from, etc.

Government projections are almost always wrong, and they are worse the further they attempt to project.  We used to call that smoke and mirrors...  Many of the charts that you posted use a lot of fairy tale information based on silly forecasts and absurd predictions.  Besides the contradictions, some even anticipated a turnaround in 2011, which obviously never occurred as we now know.  I particularly enjoyed the spending policy comparisons.  How people can be taken seriously making up phony numbers is well beyond reason.  You won't stay employed long if you play those games in the private sector.  At least my chart was based on historical data through 2010.  We're still waiting for an accurate deficit tally for 2011.  I suspect something greater than $1.5T. 
 :puke:
Thanks for playing!
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Vandy Vol

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Re: Why Are Obama's Critics So Dumb?
« Reply #41 on: January 25, 2012, 08:53:20 PM »
At least my chart was based on historical data through 2010.

Orly?

The chart claims to have a source of the Office of Management and Budget.  However, the chart was actually created by Jim Hoft, proprietor of the Gateway Pundit, a self proclaimed "major resource for right of center news."  Good ole Jimmy has been known to fudge charts in order to imply that the political right is in the ethical right.

Hoft's articles claim (and his chart reflects) that the deficit in 2008 when Bush was still in office was under $500 billion.  This leaves out one glaring fact:  several key budget decisions that were passed in 2008 wouldn't take effect until 2009.  Such as the $700 billion Wall Street bailout that was passed in late 2008.  Notice how the fiscal year in the chart ended in September 2008, yet the bailout was not passed until October 2008, thereby attributing all of the Bush-initiated bailout to Obama?  Yet there's no disclaimer pointing out this teeny tiny $700+ billion fact?  Tricky Jimmy.

Not to mention that the ultimate price tag of the bailout may have been more than the proposed $700 billion, and thus all of the claims that these debts (plus interest) have been paid back may be falsely calculated due to misstatements about the total amount spent.

I'm not going to go scouring through government documents (assuming that those are even accurate anyhow, considering that the government has lost track of trillions of dollars) in order to compare a chart made by a biased, amateur political commentator with figures from reports.  My only point was, and still is, that charts can be created by anyone, and can be created in such a manner so as to be extremely misleading.  Just like ole Jimmy loves them to be.

No sir...thank you for playing.
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Re: Why Are Obama's Critics So Dumb?
« Reply #42 on: January 25, 2012, 10:50:30 PM »
Fuck charts and all of this noise.

You want to fix the country? 

Federal government runs the military, interstate system, and basic national needs such as national parks and disease control.

Give local governments more control, and let people be themselves.  If people are going to be lazy, they don't eat.  If people are going to work hard at a job that isn't relevant, they don't eat.  If people understand what their local area needs and works hard at meeting those needs, they eat. 

It's simple. 

The Eatin' Party.  Vote for me.
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The Guy That Knows Nothing of Hyperbole

Kaos

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Re: Why Are Obama's Critics So Dumb?
« Reply #43 on: January 25, 2012, 11:15:35 PM »
That article was loaded with excrement and topped with turd flakes. 

That's really all that needs to be said.  There is no reason to have a substantive debate because there's nothing of true substance there. 

I loathe the current political climate.  There is no middle, only extremes.  There is the freaky far left -- Obama, who is essentially a socialist in thought and deed -- and then the left leaning which includes Gingrich, Romney, Santorum and the entire bunch floated out by the Republicans.  All this babble about "conservatives" and "the right"  there IS no right any more.  Only degrees of left. 

I'm sickened by the slate of Republican candidates.  Chairman Maobama is the weakest incumbent president in my memory.  He's almost as vulnerable as Hoover (who I don't remember because I wasn't alive).   Any legitimate Republican candidate with a smidgen of vision would trounce the stuffed shirt, do-nothing pretender.  The Republicans could run Robert Downey Jr. and probably win.  At least he has a personality. 

Now.  Let's talk about Burger King's new fries.  IMO they suck worse than the old ones.  if BK could ever get fries right, they'd be gold.  I prefer the whopper to the Quarter Pounder most days but I don't get it because the BK fries suck so bad they ruin the entire meal.
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Vandy Vol

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Re: Why Are Obama's Critics So Dumb?
« Reply #44 on: January 25, 2012, 11:35:06 PM »
Now.  Let's talk about Burger King's new fries.  IMO they suck worse than the old ones.  if BK could ever get fries right, they'd be gold.  I prefer the whopper to the Quarter Pounder most days but I don't get it because the BK fries suck so bad they ruin the entire meal.

I haven't had Burger King in months probably.  Used to eat there fairly often when it was closer to the old place, but since I moved in August, I've been there maybe once or twice.

Damn it, now you've got me thinking about Burger King...
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AUTiger1

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Re: Why Are Obama's Critics So Dumb?
« Reply #45 on: January 25, 2012, 11:50:55 PM »
Fuck charts and all of this noise.

You want to fix the country? 

Federal government runs the military, interstate system, and basic national needs such as national parks and disease control.

Give local governments more control, and let people be themselves.  If people are going to be lazy, they don't eat.  If people are going to work hard at a job that isn't relevant, they don't eat.  If people understand what their local area needs and works hard at meeting those needs, they eat. 

It's simple. 

The Eatin' Party.  Vote for me.

AWK is saying what I am trying to say.  It's a fluff piece and you have to give credit to both presidents.  You can't give it all to one or the other.  Sorta like our shitty economy, both parties share fault in that.  We spent money like we had an endless supply in 2000 until the present.  The republicans had control and didn't do anything to stop it and were a part of it.  In 06 when the democrats controlled congress they spent like crazy and still are to this day.   I have to ask, is Obama better than Clinton, b/c he fucked up and didn't kill Bin Laden either and he had a chance?

THS:  See I agree with where you are going.  A lot of things need to be turned over the states and local gov't.  Education being one.  I do however disagree with a park being a need and the federal gov't being in control.  First it's not a need.  Its a want.  Parks such as Joe Wheeler and Cathedral Caverns are what they need to be.  State Parks.  Let the state control the funding to those kind of things.  If the state doesn't have the money, then the walking trail doesn't get upgraded that year and you may want to wear boots and not your Nike's.

That article was loaded with excrement and topped with turd flakes. 

That's really all that needs to be said.  There is no reason to have a substantive debate because there's nothing of true substance there. 

I loathe the current political climate.  There is no middle, only extremes.  There is the freaky far left -- Obama, who is essentially a socialist in thought and deed -- and then the left leaning which includes Gingrich, Romney, Santorum and the entire bunch floated out by the Republicans.  All this babble about "conservatives" and "the right"  there IS no right any more.  Only degrees of left. 

I'm sickened by the slate of Republican candidates.  Chairman Maobama is the weakest incumbent president in my memory.  He's almost as vulnerable as Hoover (who I don't remember because I wasn't alive).   Any legitimate Republican candidate with a smidgen of vision would trounce the stuffed shirt, do-nothing pretender.  The Republicans could run Robert Downey Jr. and probably win.  At least he has a personality. 

Now.  Let's talk about Burger King's new fries.  IMO they suck worse than the old ones.  if BK could ever get fries right, they'd be gold.  I prefer the whopper to the Quarter Pounder most days but I don't get it because the BK fries suck so bad they ruin the entire meal.

Since Big King broke in and stole the blueprint to the McMuffin, why can't he break in again and steal the blueprint for the fries? 
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Courage is only fear holding on a minute longer.--George S. Patton

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Kaos

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Re: Why Are Obama's Critics So Dumb?
« Reply #46 on: January 25, 2012, 11:57:17 PM »
Change.  Not always for the good.

« Last Edit: January 25, 2012, 11:58:14 PM by Kaos »
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AUChizad

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Re: Why Are Obama's Critics So Dumb?
« Reply #47 on: January 26, 2012, 12:15:40 AM »
Change.  Not always for the good.


Where the hell could you get gas for $1.85 in November 2008, MrConservative.com?
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Kaos

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Re: Why Are Obama's Critics So Dumb?
« Reply #48 on: January 26, 2012, 01:08:29 AM »
Where the hell could you get gas for $1.85 in November 2008, MrConservative.com?

At the gas station. 



Gasbuddy.com   Historical tracking. 
« Last Edit: January 26, 2012, 01:10:27 AM by Kaos »
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Re: Why Are Obama's Critics So Dumb?
« Reply #49 on: January 26, 2012, 09:00:42 AM »

THS:  See I agree with where you are going.  A lot of things need to be turned over the states and local gov't.  Education being one.  I do however disagree with a park being a need and the federal gov't being in control.  First it's not a need.  Its a want.  Parks such as Joe Wheeler and Cathedral Caverns are what they need to be.  State Parks.  Let the state control the funding to those kind of things.  If the state doesn't have the money, then the walking trail doesn't get upgraded that year and you may want to wear boots and not your Nike's.


I included national parks because I thought some of them extend across state lines.  But I agree that states could (and should) be in charge of those as well. 

I've come to realize as I've gotten older that the federal government really isn't needed for my everyday activities.  Just ensure that no outside force (terrorists, military, disease, etc) is going to prevent me from experiencing outside activities.
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AUTiger1

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Re: Why Are Obama's Critics So Dumb?
« Reply #50 on: January 26, 2012, 09:57:44 AM »
I included national parks because I thought some of them extend across state lines.  But I agree that states could (and should) be in charge of those as well. 

I've come to realize as I've gotten older that the federal government really isn't needed for my everyday activities.  Just ensure that no outside force (terrorists, military, disease, etc) is going to prevent me from experiencing outside activities.

Ahh, I see now, I didn't even think about that. 

The older I get the more Libertarian I become.  I don't care what you do, just leave me the hell alone and don't infringe on my rights.  I also see more and more that I don't think the gov't should be involved in. 
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Courage is only fear holding on a minute longer.--George S. Patton

There are gonna be days when you lay your guts on the line and you come away empty handed, there ain't a damn thing you can do about it but go back out there and lay em on the line again...and again, and again! -- Coach Pat Dye

It isn't that liberals are ignorant. It's just they know so much that isn't so. --Ronald Reagan

GH2001

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Re: Why Are Obama's Critics So Dumb?
« Reply #51 on: January 26, 2012, 10:14:24 AM »
Charts.  How them shits work?



DISCLAIMER:  The charts posted above aren't meant to prove or disprove any particular point.  In fact, you'll notice that some of them favor Obama, while others don't.  They are simply meant to show that charts will differ based upon a variety of factors, including how data is grouped, who specific data is attributed to, where the data was obtained from, etc.

Oh I agree with you VV. I was talking in particular about the surplus vs debt only. And you are right a lot of the charts are relative to what the benchmark is. I.e. on the chart that shows Obama's spending up 7.2%. A lot of his increase numbers reflect low because Bush's were already high. Again, I dont like to excuse Obama's spending problem by pointing to Bush's spending problem. They were both wrong. Bush spent too much (wars, other stupid programs). Obama is spending even more (healthcare, entitlements). I have been a big critic of Bush (Iraq, NCTB, Script Plan). And I will do the same for Obama as well.

I just think Chizad is unneccesarily getting his self wound up (and having to increase his Lipitor dose) over something so dumb as to whether Bush gave more of a crap about Bin Laden than Obama. No one will ever know. The guy is dead now. They both contributed to it. Bush did a lot of the legwork. Obama finished the job. End of story. Kudos to both.
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GH2001

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Re: Why Are Obama's Critics So Dumb?
« Reply #52 on: January 26, 2012, 10:18:47 AM »
Fuck charts and all of this noise.

You want to fix the country? 

Federal government runs the military, interstate system, and basic national needs such as national parks and disease control.

Give local governments more control, and let people be themselves.  If people are going to be lazy, they don't eat.  If people are going to work hard at a job that isn't relevant, they don't eat.  If people understand what their local area needs and works hard at meeting those needs, they eat. 

It's simple. 

The Eatin' Party.  Vote for me.

I chuckled at this, but you are 100% correct. This is how our founding documents intended things to be ran.

Quote
We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

And "welfare" does not mean THAT kind of "welfare".

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AWK

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Re: Why Are Obama's Critics So Dumb?
« Reply #53 on: January 26, 2012, 10:55:33 AM »
At the gas station. 



Gasbuddy.com   Historical tracking.
Disregard the fact that it was $4.12 that same year...
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AUChizad

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Re: Why Are Obama's Critics So Dumb?
« Reply #54 on: January 26, 2012, 11:11:24 AM »
At the gas station. 
Gasbuddy.com   Historical tracking. 

And if you expand that out a little to include all of Bush's presidency, it looks like this.



It's still considerably lower than it was just prior to Obama's inauguration. If we're playing the game where gas prices are directly tied to a presidency, then if anything, Obama's mere presence in the White House magically plummeted gas prices. Apparently it was under $2 for about 6 months.

Not to digress and get caught up on the gas thing, because as I implied, who is in the White House has next to no bearing on gas prices and has far more to do with inflation, supply & demand, and OPEC controlling the price.

I included national parks because I thought some of them extend across state lines.  But I agree that states could (and should) be in charge of those as well. 

I've come to realize as I've gotten older that the federal government really isn't needed for my everyday activities.  Just ensure that no outside force (terrorists, military, disease, etc) is going to prevent me from experiencing outside activities.
And I completely agree with that, at least theoretically.

The less government is involved in my life, the better.

As it relates to this article, however, can you name one president in US history who has practiced this model of government?

Did Reagan cut every single government program besides the military, interstate system and a few other bare necessities?

That's the point of this article, to get back on topic. People pretending that we have Karl Marx in the White House, when in reality the most "radical leftist" thing he's done is the healthcare reform plan, which as stated, is not the radical privatization of health care that people claim. The government is not taking over the health care industry. PolitiFact calls that claim the "Lie of the Year".

To summarize:
Quote
"Government takeover" conjures a European approach where the government owns the hospitals and the doctors are public employees. But the law Congress passed, parts of which have already gone into effect, relies largely on the free market:

• Employers will continue to provide health insurance to the majority of Americans through private insurance companies.

• Contrary to the claim, more people will get private health coverage. The law sets up "exchanges" where private insurers will compete to provide coverage to people who don't have it.

• The government will not seize control of hospitals or nationalize doctors.

• The law does not include the public option, a government-run insurance plan that would have competed with private insurers.

• The law gives tax credits to people who have difficulty affording insurance, so they can buy their coverage from private providers on the exchange. But here too, the approach relies on a free market with regulations, not socialized medicine.

Next to that, the most "radical leftist" thing he's done is propose "the Buffett Rule" which will only raise taxes for the richest 2% of the country. 98% of the country's taxes remain the same. I know I'm in the 98%, and I'd venture to say that probably everyone on this board is as well. If you make over a million dollars a year, then you have reason to be unhappy with this tax plan. Basically, all this is is a reversal of the Bush tax cuts (which Obama extended in 2010). We're not talking the People's Republic of China here.

Aside from an economic socialist, the other thing this article is disputing is that he's some pushover pussy. Tell that to Bin Laden, Gaddafi, and Anwar al-Awlaki. He also sent Khalid Sheikh Mohammad to face a military commission. You still have a chance to ask him, although that window is quickly closing. He's anti-Israel? Tell that to the Israeli military, whom he sold 55 GBU-28 Hard Target Penetrators to (Bunker-Busters as they're called on the skreets), and whom he stood up for at the UN when Palestine wanted their statehood. I thought he was going to close Guantanamo?

This is the point of the article. That the actual reality of Obama's presidency are a far cry from the generally accepted perception. Facts be damned.

Of course, the article also goes into bashing the liberal critics for saying he's a shill for Wall Street, etc., but since that doesn't pertain to anyone here, that portion of the article was ignored.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2012, 11:15:05 AM by AUChizad »
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Godfather

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Re: Why Are Obama's Critics So Dumb?
« Reply #55 on: January 26, 2012, 11:16:31 AM »
I say again  :facepalm:
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GarMan

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Re: Why Are Obama's Critics So Dumb?
« Reply #56 on: January 26, 2012, 01:31:49 PM »
Orly?

The chart claims to have a source of the Office of Management and Budget.  However, the chart was actually created by Jim Hoft, proprietor of the Gateway Pundit, a self proclaimed "major resource for right of center news."  Good ole Jimmy has been known to fudge charts in order to imply that the political right is in the ethical right.

Oh come on...  Cut the BS.  Even if Hoft was ordained by Satan, the numbers align to the reported deficits year over year.  You can play the transition year game between administrations, but that only goes so far.  Barry along with a Democrat House and a Democrat Senate overspent every year at levels that made Bush's annual deficits attractive.  Come to think of it, we're going on 1000 days of these clowns not even passing an annual budget.  The House passed one last year only because the Republicans took back control, but the Senate didn't do anything with it.  Neither did Barry.  Nevermind the Constitutional issues with that, it's just plain irresponsible. 

Cast doubt all you want.  The truth is the fucking truth.  Democrats will NEVER be able to honestly talk fiscal responsibility again when it comes to government.  I'd like to gradulate dem for showin' theyz tru colords up in that! 
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GH2001

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Re: Why Are Obama's Critics So Dumb?
« Reply #57 on: January 26, 2012, 02:41:02 PM »
And if you expand that out a little to include all of Bush's presidency, it looks like this.



It's still considerably lower than it was just prior to Obama's inauguration. If we're playing the game where gas prices are directly tied to a presidency, then if anything, Obama's mere presence in the White House magically plummeted gas prices. Apparently it was under $2 for about 6 months.

Not to digress and get caught up on the gas thing, because as I implied, who is in the White House has next to no bearing on gas prices and has far more to do with inflation, supply & demand, and OPEC controlling the price.
And I completely agree with that, at least theoretically.

The less government is involved in my life, the better.

As it relates to this article, however, can you name one president in US history who has practiced this model of government?

Did Reagan cut every single government program besides the military, interstate system and a few other bare necessities?

That's the point of this article, to get back on topic. People pretending that we have Karl Marx in the White House, when in reality the most "radical leftist" thing he's done is the healthcare reform plan, which as stated, is not the radical privatization of health care that people claim. The government is not taking over the health care industry. PolitiFact calls that claim the "Lie of the Year".

To summarize:
Next to that, the most "radical leftist" thing he's done is propose "the Buffett Rule" which will only raise taxes for the richest 2% of the country. 98% of the country's taxes remain the same. I know I'm in the 98%, and I'd venture to say that probably everyone on this board is as well. If you make over a million dollars a year, then you have reason to be unhappy with this tax plan. Basically, all this is is a reversal of the Bush tax cuts (which Obama extended in 2010). We're not talking the People's Republic of China here.

Aside from an economic socialist, the other thing this article is disputing is that he's some pushover pussy. Tell that to Bin Laden, Gaddafi, and Anwar al-Awlaki. He also sent Khalid Sheikh Mohammad to face a military commission. You still have a chance to ask him, although that window is quickly closing. He's anti-Israel? Tell that to the Israeli military, whom he sold 55 GBU-28 Hard Target Penetrators to (Bunker-Busters as they're called on the skreets), and whom he stood up for at the UN when Palestine wanted their statehood. I thought he was going to close Guantanamo?

This is the point of the article. That the actual reality of Obama's presidency are a far cry from the generally accepted perception. Facts be damned.

Of course, the article also goes into bashing the liberal critics for saying he's a shill for Wall Street, etc., but since that doesn't pertain to anyone here, that portion of the article was ignored.

Before you bash Reagan, remember that he had neither the Senate or Congress on his side. Heavily democratic and hell bent on opposing him. I believe if Reagan had been President while Newt was Speaker, it would have been magic. Like I said, Clinton was smart enough to follow the GOP in 1994. I remember it well.
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AUChizad

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Re: Why Are Obama's Critics So Dumb?
« Reply #58 on: January 26, 2012, 03:27:48 PM »
Before you bash Reagan, remember that he had neither the Senate or Congress on his side. Heavily democratic and hell bent on opposing him. I believe if Reagan had been President while Newt was Speaker, it would have been magic. Like I said, Clinton was smart enough to follow the GOP in 1994. I remember it well.
I don't see how what I said could be interpreted as bashing Reagan. If anything I used him as the gold standard for Republican purism. Insert whoever you want there. Use George Wallace or, hell, Alex P. Keaton.

The point is, yeah this fairy-tale president that disbands every government agency except the military is fun to talk about, but is that the standard of conservatism that Obama is failing to live up to? Then so has every president in the history of the United States. Ron Paul is the only legitimate candidate that I can come up with who even comes close to this ideal, and even he wouldn't make as radical a change as is being suggested.
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Re: Why Are Obama's Critics So Dumb?
« Reply #59 on: January 26, 2012, 04:14:26 PM »
Oh come on...  Cut the BS.

There is no B.S.  The chart indicates that the fiscal year ends September 30 (which it does for the government).  Thus, money spent after October 2008 for Bush's Wall Street Bailout is attributed to Obama's 2009 tenure on that chart.  How else do you explain that Bush was less than $500 billion in the hole for 2008 on this chart, yet had approved $700+ billion in spending that year?

This isn't to say that Obama hasn't done his fair share of spending; it's to point out (yet again) that charts can be misleading.  Neatly categorizing spending as part of the "Bush Years," but then failing to point out that spending done in the 2009 fiscal year (October 2008 through September 2009) is attributed to Obama, is extremely misleading, especially when you put that information into a graph which makes it appear as if Obama was the one who spent the $700+ billion in 2009.
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