The End of an Era: Paterno is Finished

[Kaos]

You are trying to rationalize something that is not rational.  Paterno is not the only one vilified in this endeavor and frankly I don't see where he has been vilified.  Was the president of the university also not fired? Are multiple people not having issues with perjury to the grand jury?  The reason you are hearing so much about Paterno is because he is the figurehead at PSU.  By his own admittance he wishes he had done more, he needed to be fired K.  The whole program is going to be wiped out at the end of the year.

With one breath you chastise that we don't know the man that he was this great pillar of society. I say that neither do you. While I don't doubt that he was a good man who could have had one lapse in judgement. It was a huge lapse in judgement and he needed to be fired for it. 

Your argument doesn't hold up in any situation, even if Paterno had been told the bare minimum 2 WORDS child and abuse should have caused him to react outside of the normal chain of command.  Since when is it up to Paterno or the University to investigate into criminal manners?  Since when is it okay to take manners into your own hands?  There is no way in hell that Paterno would have been labeled anything outside of hero had he gone to the police in this situation.

I still don't buy that if McQuery saw what he testified to, that he told Paterno only the bare minimum. No one talks like that but, whatever, you can believe what you want.  I just have a hard time believing that anyone as skeptical as you are can't smell this shit sandwich from a mile away.

Frankly, I don't really care that anything else happens to him.  I don't feel he needs to be charged with criminal wrongdoing. IMO his firing was enough.

He's been fired. 

It feels bad to me, but I think that's primarily because I view it as an effort for the school to save face and distance themselves from the situation.  If there WAS a coverup (and I don't know that I know enough to say that yet) it didn't emanate just from Paterno.  Presidents, Board members, everybody was involved. 

[Godfather]

I'm somewhere in the middle.

I get what K's saying. I feel kind of the same way.

Godfather's comments about how if K believes what he says, he's no longer the friend he considered him to be, is a bit melodramatic. He's not in any way, shape, or form defending what went down. I don't think he's even saying that Paterno did the right thing, or "enough" of the right thing. Only that the hatred and vitriol is a bit misplaced when he's getting more pitchforks than Sandusky is. Or for that matter, any of the other hundred or so of other people who were complicit in the situation.

It's not right. Paterno deserves some criticism, in my opinion, no doubt. But to me, I don't get quite the degree of outrage we're seeing. I get that the crime itself is unspeakable, so the stakes are higher. I get that someone, anyone, who knew about what was going on had the moral obligation to have it stopped immediately. I also get that we hold Paterno to a higher standard because of the moral character he has been synonymous with for 60 years. But to me, that's precedent to say, "Surely this guy didn't do anything with intentional malice."

No one on Earth is defending Sandusky.

I'm not even defending Paterno. Just saying I don't get why he's public enemy #1 when to me, he's no more guilty than an untold number of people who "could have done more."

First I didn't say I would no longer be his friend, I said I would lose respect for him.

See that's where you both don't get it then, I don't see that he is public enemy number one, I think that is being melodramatic. Is he being criticized absolutely...and he should be.  Whether he knew a little or a lot doing the minimum in this type of manner with the morals that Paterno claims he has IS NOT OKAY. 

He has been fired, I think it was the right move, as far as I am concerned with Paterno his fate was his he made the mistake and its over.  The reason you are seeing the outrage is 2 fold.  One there is a large contingent that don't think he should have been fired.  I don't agree with them, and no amount of rationalizing can change my perception of that.  Number 2, he was and has been the man for a long time,  just like he was championed for all those years for stuff he did right.  You also get the blame when you make a mistake.  Paterno's mistake was HUGE....HUUUUGE and it might have cost him his reputation. 

Those saying well we don't know what you would do given the situation, if a friend of mine came to me and said I just saw your friend doing sexual acts with a child.  My first discussion is Friend I give you one option you have 24 hours to turn yourself in or I am.

[Kaos]

First I didn't say I would no longer be his friend, I said I would lose respect for him.

See that's where you both don't get it then, I don't see that he is public enemy number one, I think that is being melodramatic. Is he being criticized absolutely...and he should be.  Whether he knew a little or a lot doing the minimum in this type of manner with the morals that Paterno claims he has IS NOT OKAY. 

He has been fired, I think it was the right move, as far as I am concerned with Paterno his fate was his he made the mistake and its over.  The reason you are seeing the outrage is 2 fold.  One there is a large contingent that don't think he should have been fired.  I don't agree with them, and no amount of rationalizing can change my perception of that.  Number 2, he was and has been the man for a long time,  just like he was championed for all those years for stuff he did right.  You also get the blame when you make a mistake.  Paterno's mistake was HUGE....HUUUUGE and it might have cost him his reputation. 

Those saying well we don't know what you would do given the situation, if a friend of mine came to me and said I just saw your friend doing sexual acts with a child.  My first discussion is Friend I give you one option you have 24 hours to turn yourself in or I am.

All I'm trying to do is figure out why.  That leads me where it leads me. 

[Godfather]

He's been fired. 

It feels bad to me, but I think that's primarily because I view it as an effort for the school to save face and distance themselves from the situation.  If there WAS a coverup (and I don't know that I know enough to say that yet) it didn't emanate just from Paterno.  Presidents, Board members, everybody was involved.

I agree with that, I never disagreed with you on that and I believe that more is going to come out and more will be fired.  However, Paterno is still going to get the brunt of the coverage he is the figurehead, and he made a huge mistake.

[wesfau2]

All I'm trying to do is figure out why.  That leads me where it leads me.

The "why" doesn't fucking matter except in the most abstract and academic sense.  The act, or inaction rather, resulted in the systematic enabling of a predator who victimized the most helpless members of our society. 

I'm not saying that Paterno is the only culpable party, there clearly was a culture of cover up at PSU.  Paterno does get the most heat however(besides the actual rapist) precisely because of the wholesome, and now apparently duplicitous, facade he projected for a dinosaur's age.

[War Eagle!!!]

What gets me is Paterno knew...at least something fucked up was going on...and kept Sandesky around for over 8 years. 12 years since he was let go at the age of 55 for no apparent reason in 1999. Some one knew something. Period. And for him to stay around the program as long as he has is fucked up and everyone needs to go....

[AUChizad]

The Defensive Coordinator has no business taking over as interim head coach if you ask me.

If I'm going to assume Paterno knew what he "must have known", the guy second in line, but without age inflicted dementia, probably knew more.

I guess that ONLY Paterno was made the focus of so many people's rage, and people ONLY demanded Paterno step down, and then ONLY a handful of officials, including Paterno did.

[wesfau2]

The Defensive Coordinator has no business taking over as interim head coach if you ask me.

If I'm going to assume Paterno knew what he "must have known", the guy second in line, but without age inflicted dementia, probably knew more.

Agree with this.

[Kaos]

The "why" doesn't fucking matter except in the most abstract and academic sense.  The act, or inaction rather, resulted in the systematic enabling of a predator who victimized the most helpless members of our society. 

I'm not saying that Paterno is the only culpable party, there clearly was a culture of cover up at PSU.  Paterno does get the most heat however(besides the actual rapist) precisely because of the wholesome, and now apparently duplicitous, facade he projected for a dinosaur's age.

Sure it matters. 

It matters because we don't know the true level of culpability. 

Systematic enabling, if and only if, all the dots we can now connect in retrospect were easily connectable at the time.  They weren't.

Duplicitous facade?  Again only if one knows with certainty what he was told, what he knew and what he believed. 

Hyperbole aside.  If somebody told you that they saw your best friend of 30 years, a guy you thought you knew everything about, somebody you worked with every day of your life, somebody you trusted, trusted with your kids, considered a brother -- somebody comes to you and says "Wes, I, uh, think I might have seen Buddy maybe with a kid in the shower.  And maybe it was sexual?" 

You're going to confront the guy probably.  And if this guy, the guy who's your close, close friend tells you "No way, dude.  It was an innocent thing.  The kid had soap in his eyes, I was trying to get it out.  Shower?  What the fuck?  Guys shower together all the time.  Damn, Joe, you've been in those showers with me.  You trying to fuck me?  You think anything of it?  It didn't happen, Joe.  I don't know what he thought he saw, but fuck man.  You know me.  You KNOW me.  Think about it." 

Joe says he still has to report it.  He does. 

I don't know, Wes, I wasn't there.  But based on everything I've ever seen and heard about the guy I can't reconcile that with the dirty bastard portrayal. 

Has to be more to it than that. 

[AWK]

[Kaos]

So this is what happens when you put a statue of a guy outside the stadium while he's still working there?

[Token]

Hyperbole aside.  If somebody told you that they saw your best friend of 30 years, a guy you thought you knew everything about, somebody you worked with every day of your life, somebody you trusted, trusted with your kids, considered a brother -- somebody comes to you and says "Wes, I, uh, think I might have seen Buddy maybe with a kid in the shower.  And maybe it was sexual?" 

You're going to confront the guy probably.  And if this guy, the guy who's your close, close friend tells you "No way, dude.  It was an innocent thing.  The kid had soap in his eyes, I was trying to get it out.  Shower?  What the fuck?  Guys shower together all the time.  Damn, Joe, you've been in those showers with me.  You trying to fuck me?  You think anything of it?  It didn't happen, Joe.  I don't know what he thought he saw, but fuck man.  You know me.  You KNOW me.  Think about it." 

You still don't get it chopper.  You say you do, but you don't.

That response would have been understandable in 1998, when Joe Pa fired his good friend for the shower incident.  But the same allegation is made again?  With the same circumstances as 1998?  At what point do you stop brushing it off?  How many times can your friend be accused of raping children in the bathroom before "come on man, you KNOW me" is no longer a free pass?

In my opinion, only once.  You get accused of raping kids once, I'll take your word and I'm going to need to see some evidence.  You get accused of the same fucking crime twice?  There's an issue and we're not stopping at "bare minimum". 

[wesfau2]

You still don't get it chopper.  You say you do, but you don't.

That response would have been understandable in 1998, when Joe Pa fired his good friend for the shower incident.  But the same allegation is made again?  With the same circumstances as 1998?  At what point do you stop brushing it off?  How many times can your friend be accused of raping children in the bathroom before "come on man, you KNOW me" is no longer a free pass?

In my opinion, only once.  You get accused of raping kids once, I'll take your word and I'm going to need to see some evidence.  You get accused of the same fucking crime twice?  There's an issue and we're not stopping at "bare minimum".

Yes.

[Godfather]

You still don't get it chopper.  You say you do, but you don't.

That response would have been understandable in 1998, when Joe Pa fired his good friend for the shower incident.  But the same allegation is made again?  With the same circumstances as 1998?  At what point do you stop brushing it off?  How many times can your friend be accused of raping children in the bathroom before "come on man, you KNOW me" is no longer a free pass?

In my opinion, only once.  You get accused of raping kids once, I'll take your word and I'm going to need to see some evidence.  You get accused of the same fucking crime twice?  There's an issue and we're not stopping at "bare minimum".

Not only that but I could understand if the kid was say 16 or perhaps related, but no way in hell does a 55+ year old man belong in a shower with a boy that age.  There is no reason you could give me as a parent where I would be ok with that.

Oh and the mother who didn't report the other incident further....she needs to be pistol whipped as well.

[GarMan]

Wow...  Still going...  Pedifile State needs to be crucified over this.  NCAA should ban them from all sports until further notice.  People need to go to jail over this including JoPa and others.  This is not a single isolated event.  It's been going on for years, and they have known about it. 

[Vandy Vol]

I guess what's amazing to me is that many of you seem to think this is the first time it's ever happened.

I think you're missing our (or at least my) point.

No one is prancing around pretending the world is full of magical lollipops and unicorn queefs, and that no one tries to sweep anything under the rug or ignore something in order to preserve themselves.

Rather, what we're saying is that it's despicable to do so, regardless of how often it happens or why it happens.

The first incident happens.  Whoever is in charge -- whether it's Paterno or whoever -- makes the decision to preserve the dignity of the school and bury the shit quietly.

And this is why it's despicable:  Anyone who values the integrity of a team that plays a fucking game over the innocence of children is fucked up in the head.

Additionally, the logic here is retardedly stupid.  "We want to save the integrity of our school, so instead of pointing out the one guy who did this and showing that, as a school, we stand against these actions, we're going to sweep it under the rug and turn our heads."

That type of logic doesn't make sense.  At all.  Even if that is what these dumb fucks believed, I don't give a flying monkey shit.  It's stupid.  It's superficial.  It's wrong.

I'm not going to sit back and accept the excuse that they valued the school's reputation over children.  I'm not going to try to defend them by saying that they were worried about their jobs.  If they didn't do anything wrong, then they shouldn't have had anything to worry about.  And if they're stupid enough not to think that, then fuck them in their mouths, because their idiocy and desire for "self-preservation" really fucked up some kids in the head.

I'm having a hard time understanding why he's a greater villain than Sandusky himself. Or than any of the about a hundred people who knew something or had suspicions but didn't act either.

Umm, I don't think anyone said that he was.  People are just saying that he had a part in this by not reporting it to the police.  He allowed the guy to keep coming back to the facilities with children despite the fact that Sandusky's had previous charges brought and someone told Joe Pa that he was seen in the shower with a young boy and that the conduct was of a "sexual nature."

Failure by Joe Pa.  Utterly and horribly.  No, he didn't directly rape the kid, and he may not be considered as on the same level as Sandusky, but that doesn't make him a saint either.  Fuck him in his old ass.  Fuck Sandusky in his ass harder.  Make sense?

[JR4AU]

Wow...  Still going...  Pedifile State needs to be crucified over this.  NCAA should ban them from all sports until further notice.  People need to go to jail over this including JoPa and others.  This is not a single isolated event.  It's been going on for years, and they have known about it.

Not an NCAA issue.  PSU fans and alum need to speak by not going to games, and/or donating until house is completely sanitized.  Folks need to go to jail.  But it's NOT an NCAA issue.   

[Snaggletiger]

Sandusky will be handled on a different level.  Whether it be behind bars of federal pound you in the ass with a broomstick prison, or he takes his own life with a Remington .12 guage to the roof of his mouf. 

[JR4AU]

Sandusky will be handled on a different level.  Whether it be behind bars of federal pound you in the ass with a broomstick prison, or he takes his own life with a Remington .12 guage to the roof of his mouf.

I put my money on the latter.

[Tiger Wench]

Sandusky will be handled on a different level.  Whether it be behind bars of federal pound you in the ass with a broomstick prison, or he takes his own life with a Remington .12 guage to the roof of his mouf.

Unfortunately, most pedos are also cowards.  Ties into the abuse of someone more helpless than they are that can't fight back.  So he won't have the guts to kill himself.  He goes to prison then demands special protection.  All our hopes for justice lie with the lifer with three kids of his own, a shank and nothing to lose.

Which begs another question:  if you are his attorney, how fast do you slap a change of venue motion on the presiding judge?  Which begs ANOTHER question - where in the HELL could you find an impartial jury?  Maybe in Delaware - no real football there.  Even then, everybody knows who JoePa is.